17:51:31 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:51:36 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-irc 17:51:36 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:51:37 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King 17:51:56 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 17:52:04 present+ 17:52:11 CHAIR: Jemma 17:52:17 rrsagent, make minutes 17:52:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 17:54:08 TOPIC: Review agenda and next meeting date 17:54:17 View agenda at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/October-17%2C-2023-Agenda 17:54:28 Next meeting is October 24 17:54:37 rrsagent, make minutes 17:54:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 17:59:05 Jem has joined #aria-apg 17:59:05 rrsagent, make minutes 17:59:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem 17:59:14 rrsagent, make minutes 17:59:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem 17:59:50 present+ 17:59:50 jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg 18:03:31 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:03:48 arigilmore_ has joined #aria-apg 18:03:53 present+ 18:04:01 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2024 18:04:58 present+ jugglinmike 18:05:44 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:06:10 Jem: Our next meeting will be next Tuesday, October 24 18:09:15 Topic: Status of Site Updates 18:10:00 Jem: The resolution targets for October 31 are listed in the agenda for today's meeting 18:10:14 Issue 697: Remove recommendation in menubutton pattern to add/remove aria-expanded="true 18:10:14 PR 2831: Rating Slider Example: Redesign as an input for 10-value satisfaction scale by jongund 18:10:14 Rewrite PR by Nick to separate kbd cords for multiple key strokes - Pull Request #1611 18:10:14 Issue 2747: Incorporate/embed Feed example into APG Pattern Page 18:10:14 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 18:10:14 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 18:11:20 Matt_King: Hopefully we'll get the "slider" patch on its way today 18:12:05 Matt_King: As for the one related to feed, we're currently blocked due to the deployment issue which Alex_Flenniken is investigating 18:13:04 Topic: Issue 2501 - Rating slider redesign 18:13:23 Jem: Pull request is PR 2831: Rating Slider Example: Redesign as an input for 10-value satisfaction scale by jongund 18:13:31 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2831 18:13:51 jongund: It was previously on a 10-point scale, but now, it's a "satisfaction rating" scale 18:14:19 jongund: Visually, it looks more like ten horizontal radio buttons, ranging from "extremely unsatisfied" to "extremely satisfied" 18:14:43 jongund: The previous example was a scale of five "stars" where one could assign half "stars" 18:14:54 Matt_King: I will conduct an editorial review 18:15:37 arigilmore_: I volunteer to do a visual review 18:15:39 Jem: Thanks! 18:16:31 present+ Andrea_Cardona 18:16:37 Andrea_Cardona: I can do a code review 18:16:43 Jem: Thank you so much 18:17:15 Jem: I can try conducting a test review. I learned how to do this from Valerie a long time ago 18:17:37 Jem: I'll ask for Howard's help if I have any trouble 18:18:02 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:18:13 Matt_King: For the functional review, we should be extra sensitive to mouse and pointer behavior 18:18:47 present+ CurtBellew 18:19:04 CurtBellew: I can try the functional review 18:19:18 Jem: Thank you, it should be fun 18:19:32 present+ 18:20:00 arigilmore_: I can do that while I'm doing the visual review 18:20:41 https://deploy-preview-271--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/slider/examples/slider-rating/ 18:20:56 Matt_King: If these things look like radios but we're calling it a slider, will we get pushback on that? 18:24:43 jongund: Should we change it to use adjacent rectangles instead of circles? That way, selecting values would look like filling up a bar 18:26:05 arigilmore_: It does feel like a radio group right now. I like the idea of the rectangles 18:26:42 Matt_King: I wanted to open this conversation, but I don't think we need to solve it right now 18:28:56 Matt_King: Using an existing precedent would be great. We don't want to invent here 18:29:32 Topic: Issue 2801: Media accessibility guidance 18:29:43 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2801 18:29:56 Matt_King: This is a proposal that stemmed from a random airplane conversation on the way to TPAC 18:30:43 Matt_King: There's so much that authors build for media players 18:31:05 Matt_King: And we wondered whether it would be helpful to acknowledge and support that in APG 18:31:17 Matt_King: First: is this something that should be in APG? 18:31:48 Matt_King: Second: if so, are there people that have interests in the space who would like to participate? 18:32:11 Jem: I'm really excited about this! I work a lot with media accessibility, and I think this would fill a real gap in APG 18:32:45 Jem: Though we already have a "media seek slider" example 18:32:51 Matt_King: Ah, I forgot about that one! 18:33:04 Jem: I still think this is a great idea 18:38:24 [general discussion about the potential] 18:38:25 Matt_King: Sounds like there's some interest, but as usual, there's some concern about bandwidth 18:38:47 Matt_King: We'll keep it here as a "stretch" idea in the roadmap and revisit it early next year 18:39:11 Topic: Issue 2806: Must all treegrid rows have the same columns? 18:39:22 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2806 18:39:43 Jem: the question is: Can treegrids have different column headings for child rows? 18:39:58 Matt_King: My gut reaction was "is course, all rows have to have exactly the same columns" 18:40:36 Matt_King: When I read the spec, and when I think about tree grids, for me, the notion of different columns sounds much too complicated to ever be useful 18:41:10 Matt_King: But then I thought about how many business applications do very complicated things, so I want to leave the door open to the possibility 18:41:27 Matt_King: And to be clear: I couldn't find anything in the spec that explicitly forbids this 18:41:59 Matt_King: It's not clear to me that treegrid is exactly one tree and exactly one tree merged together 18:42:33 CurtBellew: When I hear this, I imagine a "more detail" row which can be expanded and collapsed. That's the only use case I can think of 18:43:04 CurtBellew: Basically, it nested that one row. I can't remember exactly how the example I saw worked, but it was definitely difficult to use 18:43:35 CurtBellew: I wonder if what they're aiming at here is more like that--a parent with a child which holds additional details 18:43:56 CurtBellew: A lot of the time, in my experience, this is about nesting tables, which is always a big mess 18:45:04 CurtBellew: Usually, for us, it's system status. You have a list of systems. One row might describe a database that's either "up" or "down", and you can expand that to see more diagnostic information 18:45:59 CurtBellew: But that's only the closest thing I can think of. I'm not sure it really matches what's being described 18:47:43 Matt_King: I've never found a screen reader that handles nested tables gracefully 18:48:06 CurtBellew: It wreaks havoc with our internals checkers 18:49:00 Matt_King: We might want to ask for specific use cases which justify this 18:49:48 Matt_King: Even though our initial thought is that this is somewhat contradictory to a grid. That a grid is not a grid unless it has consistency between all rows. And that a tree grid is a grid, so that principle still applies 18:50:37 Andrea_Cardona: one person on the Carbon team focuses on the tree grid implementation 18:51:37 Andrea_Cardona: I haven't personally seen an example of this, but I haven't worked with our Tree Grid very much 18:52:38 CurtBellew: I would love to see some way to do something similar because we have some cases where something like this would be useful 18:53:23 Topic: Plan for including experimental content in APG 18:53:50 Matt_King: We've talked about this in the ARIA working group 18:54:19 Matt_King: If we were to add examples for the new "aria-actions" right now, we wouldn't want people to use that as a signal to go use them in their own project 18:54:55 Matt_King: We would like to be able to clearly label experimental examples as such so that authors don't mistakenly deploy incomplete patterns 18:55:05 Matt_King: I've put together a proposal for how this could work 18:55:39 Matt_King: It's this GitHub issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2836 18:56:37 present+ Daniel 18:56:45 q+ 18:56:58 CurtBellew: I think this is a great idea 18:57:39 Jem: This came up at TPAC this year in the context of a number of new additions to ARIA 18:59:19 Jem: Why don't we add a new top-level menu item for "experimental". Or how about at the very top of the "patterns" page? 18:59:47 Matt_King: To me, the more invisible, the better. I don't want to expose this information to people who aren't looking for it explicitly 19:00:00 q? 19:00:25 Matt_King: I guess the amount of exposure is something that we can experiment with over time 19:00:59 Matt_King: I think these would use the "example page" template 19:01:41 Matt_King: Though I suppose we can have an experimental patterns page, as well 19:02:43 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2836 19:05:17 Matt_King: This is something that we would like to be ready to do by the end of the year. dmontalvo please review the spec in the issue I've filed; the sooner we receive your input, the better! 19:05:44 Zakim, end the meeting 19:05:44 As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Jem, arigilmore_, jugglinmike, Andrea_Cardona, CurtBellew, Daniel 19:05:46 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:05:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:05:53 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:05:54 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:09:51 RRSAgent, leave 19:09:51 I see no action items