IRC log of aria-apg on 2023-10-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-irc
17:51:36 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
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please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
17:51:56 [Matt_King]
MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:52:04 [Matt_King]
present+
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CHAIR: Jemma
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:54:08 [Matt_King]
TOPIC: Review agenda and next meeting date
17:54:17 [Matt_King]
View agenda at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/October-17%2C-2023-Agenda
17:54:28 [Matt_King]
Next meeting is October 24
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:59:05 [Jem]
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
17:59:14 [Jem]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
17:59:50 [Jem]
present+
17:59:50 [jugglinmike]
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18:03:31 [jongund]
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18:03:48 [arigilmore_]
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present+
18:04:01 [arigilmore_]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2024
18:04:58 [jugglinmike]
present+ jugglinmike
18:05:44 [jugglinmike]
scribe+ jugglinmike
18:06:10 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Our next meeting will be next Tuesday, October 24
18:09:15 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Status of Site Updates
18:10:00 [jugglinmike]
Jem: The resolution targets for October 31 are listed in the agenda for today's meeting
18:10:14 [Jem]
Issue 697: Remove recommendation in menubutton pattern to add/remove aria-expanded="true
18:10:14 [Jem]
PR 2831: Rating Slider Example: Redesign as an input for 10-value satisfaction scale by jongund
18:10:14 [Jem]
Rewrite PR by Nick to separate kbd cords for multiple key strokes - Pull Request #1611
18:10:14 [Jem]
Issue 2747: Incorporate/embed Feed example into APG Pattern Page
18:10:14 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
18:10:14 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
18:11:20 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Hopefully we'll get the "slider" patch on its way today
18:12:05 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: As for the one related to feed, we're currently blocked due to the deployment issue which Alex_Flenniken is investigating
18:13:04 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Issue 2501 - Rating slider redesign
18:13:23 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Pull request is PR 2831: Rating Slider Example: Redesign as an input for 10-value satisfaction scale by jongund
18:13:31 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2831
18:13:51 [jugglinmike]
jongund: It was previously on a 10-point scale, but now, it's a "satisfaction rating" scale
18:14:19 [jugglinmike]
jongund: Visually, it looks more like ten horizontal radio buttons, ranging from "extremely unsatisfied" to "extremely satisfied"
18:14:43 [jugglinmike]
jongund: The previous example was a scale of five "stars" where one could assign half "stars"
18:14:54 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I will conduct an editorial review
18:15:37 [jugglinmike]
arigilmore_: I volunteer to do a visual review
18:15:39 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Thanks!
18:16:31 [jugglinmike]
present+ Andrea_Cardona
18:16:37 [jugglinmike]
Andrea_Cardona: I can do a code review
18:16:43 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Thank you so much
18:17:15 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I can try conducting a test review. I learned how to do this from Valerie a long time ago
18:17:37 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I'll ask for Howard's help if I have any trouble
18:18:02 [CurtBellew]
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18:18:13 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: For the functional review, we should be extra sensitive to mouse and pointer behavior
18:18:47 [jugglinmike]
present+ CurtBellew
18:19:04 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: I can try the functional review
18:19:18 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Thank you, it should be fun
18:19:32 [CurtBellew]
present+
18:20:00 [jugglinmike]
arigilmore_: I can do that while I'm doing the visual review
18:20:41 [jongund]
https://deploy-preview-271--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/slider/examples/slider-rating/
18:20:56 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: If these things look like radios but we're calling it a slider, will we get pushback on that?
18:24:43 [jugglinmike]
jongund: Should we change it to use adjacent rectangles instead of circles? That way, selecting values would look like filling up a bar
18:26:05 [jugglinmike]
arigilmore_: It does feel like a radio group right now. I like the idea of the rectangles
18:26:42 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I wanted to open this conversation, but I don't think we need to solve it right now
18:28:56 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Using an existing precedent would be great. We don't want to invent here
18:29:32 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Issue 2801: Media accessibility guidance
18:29:43 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2801
18:29:56 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: This is a proposal that stemmed from a random airplane conversation on the way to TPAC
18:30:43 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: There's so much that authors build for media players
18:31:05 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: And we wondered whether it would be helpful to acknowledge and support that in APG
18:31:17 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: First: is this something that should be in APG?
18:31:48 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Second: if so, are there people that have interests in the space who would like to participate?
18:32:11 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I'm really excited about this! I work a lot with media accessibility, and I think this would fill a real gap in APG
18:32:45 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Though we already have a "media seek slider" example
18:32:51 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Ah, I forgot about that one!
18:33:04 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I still think this is a great idea
18:38:24 [jugglinmike]
[general discussion about the potential]
18:38:25 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Sounds like there's some interest, but as usual, there's some concern about bandwidth
18:38:47 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We'll keep it here as a "stretch" idea in the roadmap and revisit it early next year
18:39:11 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Issue 2806: Must all treegrid rows have the same columns?
18:39:22 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2806
18:39:43 [jugglinmike]
Jem: the question is: Can treegrids have different column headings for child rows?
18:39:58 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: My gut reaction was "is course, all rows have to have exactly the same columns"
18:40:36 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: When I read the spec, and when I think about tree grids, for me, the notion of different columns sounds much too complicated to ever be useful
18:41:10 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: But then I thought about how many business applications do very complicated things, so I want to leave the door open to the possibility
18:41:27 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: And to be clear: I couldn't find anything in the spec that explicitly forbids this
18:41:59 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: It's not clear to me that treegrid is exactly one tree and exactly one tree merged together
18:42:33 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: When I hear this, I imagine a "more detail" row which can be expanded and collapsed. That's the only use case I can think of
18:43:04 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: Basically, it nested that one row. I can't remember exactly how the example I saw worked, but it was definitely difficult to use
18:43:35 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: I wonder if what they're aiming at here is more like that--a parent with a child which holds additional details
18:43:56 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: A lot of the time, in my experience, this is about nesting tables, which is always a big mess
18:45:04 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: Usually, for us, it's system status. You have a list of systems. One row might describe a database that's either "up" or "down", and you can expand that to see more diagnostic information
18:45:59 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: But that's only the closest thing I can think of. I'm not sure it really matches what's being described
18:47:43 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I've never found a screen reader that handles nested tables gracefully
18:48:06 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: It wreaks havoc with our internals checkers
18:49:00 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We might want to ask for specific use cases which justify this
18:49:48 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Even though our initial thought is that this is somewhat contradictory to a grid. That a grid is not a grid unless it has consistency between all rows. And that a tree grid is a grid, so that principle still applies
18:50:37 [jugglinmike]
Andrea_Cardona: one person on the Carbon team focuses on the tree grid implementation
18:51:37 [jugglinmike]
Andrea_Cardona: I haven't personally seen an example of this, but I haven't worked with our Tree Grid very much
18:52:38 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: I would love to see some way to do something similar because we have some cases where something like this would be useful
18:53:23 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Plan for including experimental content in APG
18:53:50 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We've talked about this in the ARIA working group
18:54:19 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: If we were to add examples for the new "aria-actions" right now, we wouldn't want people to use that as a signal to go use them in their own project
18:54:55 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We would like to be able to clearly label experimental examples as such so that authors don't mistakenly deploy incomplete patterns
18:55:05 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I've put together a proposal for how this could work
18:55:39 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: It's this GitHub issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2836
18:56:37 [dmontalvo]
present+ Daniel
18:56:45 [dmontalvo]
q+
18:56:58 [jugglinmike]
CurtBellew: I think this is a great idea
18:57:39 [jugglinmike]
Jem: This came up at TPAC this year in the context of a number of new additions to ARIA
18:59:19 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Why don't we add a new top-level menu item for "experimental". Or how about at the very top of the "patterns" page?
18:59:47 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: To me, the more invisible, the better. I don't want to expose this information to people who aren't looking for it explicitly
19:00:00 [dmontalvo]
q?
19:00:25 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I guess the amount of exposure is something that we can experiment with over time
19:00:59 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I think these would use the "example page" template
19:01:41 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Though I suppose we can have an experimental patterns page, as well
19:02:43 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2836
19:05:17 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: This is something that we would like to be ready to do by the end of the year. dmontalvo please review the spec in the issue I've filed; the sooner we receive your input, the better!
19:05:44 [jugglinmike]
Zakim, end the meeting
19:05:44 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Jem, arigilmore_, jugglinmike, Andrea_Cardona, CurtBellew, Daniel
19:05:46 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:05:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:05:53 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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19:09:51 [jugglinmike]
RRSAgent, leave
19:09:51 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items