13:36:29 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:36:33 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-irc 13:36:38 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c5b143d1-0a5b-4adb-8d60-0f5f9bfe5a41/20231012T150000/ 13:36:38 clear agenda 13:36:38 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:36:38 agenda+ Action Items 13:36:40 agenda+ Info Share 13:36:42 agenda+ RADAR Review 13:36:44 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:36:47 agenda+ Definition of 'string' revisited 13:36:48 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:36:49 agenda+ Emphasis mark skipping 13:36:51 agenda+ AOB? 13:36:54 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:37:12 agenda+ Review 'needs-attention' issues 13:45:10 agenda+ String-meta next steps 13:54:44 JcK has joined #i18n 13:56:09 present+ Addison 13:56:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:56:58 xfq has joined #i18n 13:59:56 present+ Atsushi, JcK, Richard 13:59:59 present+ JcK 14:00:49 present+ Fuqiao 14:01:29 Najib has joined #i18n 14:01:29 scribe: xfq 14:02:27 present+ Bert 14:03:05 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:03:05 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:03:05 agenda? 14:04:01 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:04:01 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:04:21 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #51, #50, #49, #48, #47, #46, #44, #43, #42, #41, #39, #35, #33, #32, #18, #16, #12, #11, #10, #8, #7, #5, #4 14:04:27 #51 14:04:27 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/51 -> Action 51 inform fuqiao and richard what to name the string-meta-2 repo (on aphillips) due 2023-10-12 14:04:50 #50 14:04:51 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/50 -> Action 50 raise TAG request about reviewing string definitions (on aphillips) due 2023-10-12 14:05:15 close #50 14:05:17 Closed -> action #50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/50 14:05:23 #49 14:05:23 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49 -> Action 49 contact unicode about emphasis mark skipping (on aphillips) due 2023-10-05 14:05:50 close #49 14:05:53 Closed -> action #49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49 14:05:54 #48 14:05:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/48 -> Action 48 work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal (on xfq) due 2023-10-05 14:06:08 #47 14:06:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04 14:06:21 #46 14:06:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46 -> Action 46 read the string-meta explainer and consider the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28 14:06:32 close #46 14:06:34 Closed -> action #46 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46 14:06:36 #44 14:06:37 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/44 -> Action 44 follow up on the bidi thread of rdf-star (on r12a) due 2023-09-19 14:06:51 #43 14:06:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18 14:07:10 #42 14:07:10 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42 -> Action 42 work on tc39 proposal (meet with addison and eemeli to start) (on xfq) due 2023-09-18 14:07:35 close #42 14:07:37 Closed -> action #42 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42 14:07:38 #41 14:07:39 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/41 -> Action 41 propose new specdev text on strings for xml (on aphillips) due 2023-09-07 14:07:52 addison: hoping to work on #43 next week 14:08:02 #39 14:08:02 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39 -> Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31 14:08:09 #35 14:08:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30 14:08:15 #33 14:08:15 ... xfq, please send an email to eemeli to say that we no longer need to do this any more re #42 14:08:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:08:27 xfq: will do 14:08:40 #32 14:08:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32 -> Action 32 Approve the character markup PR (on fantasai) due 2023-08-17 14:09:06 close #32 14:09:08 Closed -> action #32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32 14:09:11 addison: we did #32 14:09:27 r12a: we pushed some CSS to tr-design 14:09:37 ... did that CSS include the image styling? 14:09:41 addison: yes 14:09:47 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #51, #48, #47, #44, #43, #41, #39, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #10, #8, #7, #5, #4 14:09:49 ... we should be cool in that regard now 14:09:53 #18 14:09:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) 14:09:58 #16 14:09:58 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) 14:10:03 #12 14:10:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) 14:10:26 #11 14:10:26 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) 14:10:32 #10 14:10:33 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai) 14:10:38 #8 14:10:38 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips) 14:10:43 #7 14:10:43 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) 14:10:48 #5 14:10:48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a) 14:11:50 #4 14:11:50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) 14:12:31 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:12:31 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:12:37 addison: about #4, I've recently unblocked part of it 14:12:53 agenda? 14:13:11 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:13:11 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:13:19 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 14:13:36 addison: we have no new incoming requests 14:14:05 Bert: started vc-jose-cose 14:14:25 agenda? 14:14:26 ... lots of technologies that are not W3C technologies that I have to look up 14:14:31 ... not finished 14:14:47 zakim, take up agendum 10 14:14:48 agendum 10 -- String-meta next steps -- taken up [from addison] 14:15:16 addison: last week, we discussed taking the stuff I added to the explainer and turning those into a note 14:16:08 ... upon reflection, my proposal is to keep string-meta as the best practices doc and to create a requirement doc 14:17:11 r12a: I guess I had misunderstood what we were planning to do last week 14:17:23 ... I thought this was all about doing something with the explainer 14:17:31 ... making the explainer more focused 14:17:49 ... I hadn't realized that you wanted to move stuff out of the string-meta document 14:18:15 ... I still think the explainer is needed, but it needs to be way way way shorter than what we currently have 14:18:30 ... I think some of the stuff that we have in the explainer is like an FAQ 14:18:47 ... we could restructure string-meta a little 14:19:22 ... I would have thought that if we have the introduction followed by some text that says this is the stuff you really need to read 14:19:42 ... we don't necessarily have to move the rest of the stuff out 14:19:53 addison: I can make structural changes 14:20:18 ... we don't have to move things out of there unless they're distracting 14:20:45 ... the best practices section i think needs a massive rewrite in light of the changes that we want to make 14:21:09 ... given that we're doing something different than the explainer originally did 14:21:21 ... the rewrite of the explainer should make it much cleaner 14:22:51 r12a: the audience for the explainer is kind of different from the string-meta document 14:23:27 ... I think it would be clear to be clear about what the audience is 14:23:43 ... string-meta is kind of general purpose for anybody 14:23:55 ... it has all the information that you would need 14:24:08 ... the explainer is useful for TC39 14:24:39 ... my question is what are we trying to do with the explainer? 14:24:46 ... do we need more than one explainer? 14:24:54 addison: should these be articles? 14:24:59 r12a: yeah 14:25:05 addison: OK, so let's do this 14:25:24 ... I think we need to change string-meta because that's the core document 14:25:41 ... and redo the explainer so it's focused in the right way 14:26:06 ... and the third thing is to decide a durable location 14:26:19 ... I don't think a github markdown page is the right location 14:26:32 ... maybe let's fix the explainer first 14:27:09 ... explaining language metadata is relatively straightforward 14:27:30 ... it's not a huge thing 14:27:44 ... but explaining bidi seems to be a full-time job 14:28:47 Explainer -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/blob/gh-pages/explainers/string-meta-explainer-updated.md 14:29:27 r12a: the WG-specific stuff targeting a particular audience is perhaps enough for another explainer 14:29:43 addison: agreed 14:30:22 ... in the current explainer there's a section that says what are "spillover effects" 14:30:34 ... that whole thing probably just goes away 14:31:14 r12a: I was going to say that you do have some other useful stuff like what we want TC39 and Ecma to do 14:31:18 ... that's really useful 14:31:29 addison: I'll take the action to fix the explainer 14:31:45 r12a: the first thing is to decide who's the audience for the explainer 14:31:54 ... and whether we need one or more 14:32:05 ... and then fix the explainer to meet the audience 14:32:09 addison: I agree 14:32:31 ... we need to do some work on organizing the documents 14:32:46 agenda? 14:33:01 zakim, take up agendum 7 14:33:01 agendum 7 -- Emphasis mark skipping -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:33:20 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2023OctDec/0013.html 14:33:25 addison: did everybody follow that thread? 14:33:40 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2023OctDec/0011.html 14:34:01 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2023OctDec/0011.html 14:34:22 addison: Ken and Robin Leroy replied to my email 14:35:10 ... basically I asked Unicode if they wanted to keep track of character property for emphasis mark skipping 14:35:23 ... and the answer was approximately no 14:35:51 ... and more specifically, it sounds like someone could write a Unicode technical note 14:36:02 ... someone in this case means CSS 14:36:27 r12a: Unicode folks might start more technical notes as well 14:36:36 ... like how to implement Kashmiri 14:36:51 addison: the process is not clear 14:37:06 ... and the learning curve is steep 14:37:24 r12a: note sure if it's that complicated 14:37:34 ... they don't require a particular format 14:37:45 ... you can publish an HTML page and link to it 14:37:52 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:37:52 agendum 6 -- Definition of 'string' revisited -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:38:09 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/117 14:38:17 ... you can see the technical notes written by Norbert Lindenberg, for example 14:38:27 ... just produce something similar to that 14:38:32 https://deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string 14:39:09 addison: have a look and see what you think 14:39:25 ... the difference here mainly is I pulled the mustard to the front 14:39:31 ... which is our style 14:39:39 ... and then the explanatory text 14:40:34 r12a: I thought we were going to say use USVString unless you need to use DOMString 14:40:47 addison: I'm reluctant to break that for the moment 14:41:31 ... in the HTML space and the JS space, you pretty much want to use DOMStrings 14:41:41 ... but everywhere else it's wrong 14:41:53 rrsagent, make minutes 14:41:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:42:07 ... is that the only thing that's wrong with this section? 14:42:32 r12a: it just seems kind of weird to dogmatically state the opposite of what we think really should be the case 14:42:53 ... or make it clear this is a preliminary guideline based on the current TAG practice 14:45:23 addison: trying to fixing the linking in i18n-glossary 14:45:35 https://respec.org/xref/?term=UTF-16&types=_CONCEPT_ 14:45:36 xfq: it could be a bug in ReSpec 14:45:40 addison: could be 14:47:41 xfq: if we want to link to it in other specs, we need to use class="export" 14:47:58 ... like UTF-16 14:48:27 agenda? 14:48:50 zakim, take up agendum 9 14:48:50 agendum 9 -- Review 'needs-attention' issues -- taken up [from addison] 14:48:57 xfq has joined #i18n 14:49:06 gb, list open issues from w3c/i18n-activity with label needs-attention 14:49:06 addison, sorry, I don't understand what you want me to do. Maybe try "help"? 14:50:11 gb, list open issues from w3c/i18n-activity 14:51:12 gb, list open issues with label needs-attention from w3c/i18n-activity 14:51:12 addison, sorry, I don't understand what you want me to do. Maybe try "help"? 14:51:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Aneeds-attention 14:51:40 w3c/i18n-activity#1758 14:51:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1758 -> Issue 1758 Reference for punycode-encoding of IDN (by w3cbot) [tracker] [needs-attention] [s:rdf-concepts] 14:52:02 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/63 14:52:03 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/63 -> Issue 63 Reference for punycode-encoding of IDN (by domel) [i18n-tracker] [spec:substantive] 14:53:16 addison: do we need to change this to needs-resolution? 14:53:43 JcK: almost any time you talk about Punycode you're saying something wrong 14:53:54 ... but I don't quite understand what the issue is here 14:54:10 gb, list open issues with label needs-attention from REPO w3c/i18n-activity 14:54:10 Found issues in w3c/i18n-activity: #1758, #1560, #1361, #1026, #980, #809, #765, #590, #506, #404, #370, #259, #258, #219, #216, #98, #78, #46, #8 14:54:11 addison: RDF has a bunch of stuff about URL resolution 14:55:34 w3c/i18n-activity#1560 14:55:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1560 -> Issue 1560 support Unicode(or UTF-8 encoded) identifiers (by w3cbot) [close?] [tracker] [needs-attention] [s:wasm-core] [t:char_ranges] [t:markup_identifiers] 14:55:50 https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues/830 14:55:50 https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues/830 -> CLOSED Issue 830 support Unicode(or UTF-8 encoded) identifiers (by Zhang-Junzhi) [future feature] [i18n-tracker] 14:57:16 addison: this is an issue they created themselves, xfq discovered and tracked 14:57:41 ... I don't think we have enough information to keep it open 14:58:34 xfq: do we have guidelines in specdev about Unicode identifiers? 14:58:54 addison: it's good to allow them to be non-ASCII 14:59:03 r12a: I'm not sure the WG decided against it 14:59:03 https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues?q=is%3Aissue+unicode+names 15:00:08 r12a: it sounded more to me like there's not enough interest 15:01:22 ... what's the status of the document? 15:02:34 xfq: https://www.w3.org/TR/wasm-core-1/ is REC 15:02:34 ... https://www.w3.org/TR/wasm-core-2/ is FPWD 15:03:45 Transition request: https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/119 15:03:46 https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/119 -> CLOSED Issue 119 [WASM] CR transition for WebAssembly Core Specification (by ericprud) [Entering CR] [Awaiting Editor] [Awaiting Team Contact] 15:05:28 atsushi has joined #i18n 15:05:37 zakim, take up agendum 8 15:05:37 agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:05:58 rrsagent, make minutes 15:05:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:07:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:07:41 xfq has joined #i18n 15:09:07 zakim, bye 15:09:07 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, JcK, Richard, Fuqiao, Bert 15:09:07 Zakim has left #i18n