11:56:28 RRSAgent has joined #wot 11:56:32 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-irc 11:59:09 McCool has joined #wot 11:59:35 mahda-noura has joined #wot 11:59:45 meeting: WoT-WG/IG 11:59:50 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 12:00:18 present+ Mahda_Noura 12:02:12 present+ Michael_McCool, Sebastian_Kaeibisch, Michael_Koster, Ege_Korkan 12:02:32 MIzushima has joined #wot 12:03:22 sebastian has joined #wot 12:03:45 mjkl has joined #wot 12:04:03 mjk has joined #wot 12:05:12 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima, Kunihiko_Toumura 12:05:24 Ktoumura has joined #wot 12:05:42 luca_barbato has joined #wot 12:06:00 seb: today, 2h meeting, policies first 12:06:53 i/today/topic: Logistics 12:07:03 i/today/scribenick: McCool/ 12:07:06 but want to note there will be also a short pres from Ege on Faciliation Training from TPAC later 12:07:08 rrsagent, make log public 12:07:17 topic: Policies 12:07:18 s/but w/... but w/ 12:07:51 seb: there are five listed PRs for policy proposals 12:08:13 dape has joined #wot 12:09:11 seb: last week there were some updates in the PRs, so the PRs effectively have the latest version of the policy proposals 12:09:44 Ege has joined #wot 12:09:48 subtopic: Policy 1127 - Async Decisions 12:10:05 cris_ has joined #wot 12:10:06 q+ 12:10:08 seb: there were a lot of changes to this, e.g. about having a related issue for each PR 12:10:26 seb: do we have any open discussion or questions? 12:10:42 present+ Daniel_Peintner 12:11:09 q? 12:11:14 ack k 12:11:18 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1127 PR 1127 - [Policy] Move async-decision.md from "proposals" to "policies" 12:11:59 seb: as we know, Ben Francis did the first proposal a few years ago, then Ege did an updated version, and we discussed previously 12:12:20 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/async-decision-policy/policies/async-decision.md proposed async-decision.md policy 12:12:35 seb: added here are also policies to differentiate editorial and normative changes, with relaxed rules for editorial changes 12:12:53 q- 12:12:55 q+ 12:13:32 kaz: would be good to have issue, then consensus, then PR 12:14:37 mm: would like to clarify that this applies only to deliverables 12:15:47 "this policy is limited to individual documents or deliverables" 12:16:33 s/"this policy/kaz: The text at the top says "this policy/ 12:16:40 mm: ok, so best to remove "documents or" in both place. 12:18:44 kaz: there is another instance of document 12:18:57 mm: but it's for supporting document, like an ontology, so it makes sense 12:19:47 kaz: can we also review the "Normative Changes" section? 12:20:31 ... key points are there are three steps: issue, review, merging 12:23:29 kaz: seems to give the editors a lot of power 12:23:50 mm: I think the intention is that the editors' decisions should reflect the consensus of the group 12:24:34 kaz: so "how to reflect the group consensus" should be described too 12:24:42 mm: could add a point at the start about "In the following, the Editor's decisions should reflect their understanding of the consensus of the group." 12:25:32 present+ Luca_Barbato, Daniel_Peintner,Cistiano_Aguzzi 12:25:36 s/start/start of the normative section/ 12:25:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:25:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:26:01 kaz: yes, that addresses my point 12:26:24 seb: anything else? 12:26:31 ... if not, shall we merge? 12:26:51 kaz: good as a starting point, we can improve later if there are issues 12:27:04 chair: Sebastian, McCool, Koster 12:27:04 seb: hearing no objections, approved and merged 12:27:40 i/The text at the top/scribenick: kaz/ 12:27:42 subtopic: Policy 1128 - Chair's Decision Process and Quorum 12:27:48 i/so best to/scribenick: McCool/ 12:27:57 i/how to reflect/scribenick: kaz/ 12:27:57 seb: PR1128 12:28:10 i/could add a/scribenick: McCool/ 12:28:12 ... there are already some general W3C guidelines, added a reference 12:28:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:28:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:28:56 i|PR1128|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1128 PR 1128 - [Policy] Move chair-decision-process.md from "proposals" to "policies"| 12:29:15 q? 12:29:19 ack k 12:29:39 i|PR1128|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/chair-decision-process-policy/policies/chair-decision-process.md proposed Chairs policy| 12:29:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:29:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:30:22 seb: (reviews PR) 12:31:14 q+ 12:31:18 q+ 12:32:54 mm: have voting, but only in exceptional circumstances; also only applies to one topic, and can be considered a test run 12:32:54 -> https://www.w3.org/2023/Process-20230612/#consensus-building W3C Process - 5.2 Consensus Building 12:32:54 q+ 12:33:21 kaz: given current situation, don't need detailed decision policy, can follow W3C policy 12:33:31 ... only issue is if all chairs can't join 12:33:34 q+ 12:33:38 ack m 12:33:40 ack k 12:33:51 kaz: worst case we can just wait 12:33:58 ack k 12:34:16 q+ 12:34:44 seb: usually don't have urgent topics 12:35:30 kaz: latest W3C has a detailed policy we should follow 12:35:42 ack k 12:35:55 a/W3C has/W3C Process Document has/ 12:36:08 dape: current policy is tailored to three chairs, if that changes, what happens? Will have to change it. 12:36:40 q+ 12:37:10 ack dape 12:37:24 mm: in my opinion the important part here is the quorum, 2/3 12:37:36 ... it would be ok to remove the voting part imo 12:37:54 kaz: W3C policy does have detailed procedure, formal objections, etc. 12:39:08 ... what this really says is the third person is ok with deferring their choice to the other two if not available 12:39:30 mm: propose we review the (newish) W3C policy and try to revise this to remove the voting if possible 12:39:40 ... but table this one for now 12:40:41 mm: think we can simplify to reach Kaz's intent 12:40:57 subtopic: Policy 1129 - Group Decisions 12:41:08 seb: PR1129 12:41:27 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1129 PR 1129 - https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1129 12:41:29 ... this is a clarification of what is in the charter, defining a few terms like "Working Days" 12:41:59 i|this is a|->https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/decisions-policy/policies/decisions.md proposed group decision policy| 12:42:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:42:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:43:03 mm: so main policy here is already in the charter, this is just a copy for reference; the important part here are the clarifications 12:43:38 q? 12:43:47 ack m 12:45:11 kaz: all the text is defined by the charter. 12:45:12 q+ 12:45:21 ack k 12:46:06 mm: would be fine with replacing all the text in the first part with a link to section 8 of the charter 12:46:08 dezell has joined #wot 12:46:16 -> https://www.w3.org/2023/10/wot-wg-2023.html#decisions 8. Decision Policy 12:46:20 present+ David_Ezell 12:46:41 s/8./WoT WG Charter - 8./ 12:47:10 s/all the text/all the text within "Group Decisions"/ 12:48:31 mm: also, want to make clear I think 1wk should be our "standard", 2wks is the exception 12:49:33 seb: any objections to merging? 12:49:50 ... hearing none, will merge and adopt the policy. 12:50:10 subtopic: Policy 1130 - Policy Adoption 12:50:20 seb: we should probably have started with this one... 12:50:37 ... guidelines and process for new policies 12:50:38 q+ 12:51:10 i|probably|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1130 PR 1130 - [Policy] Move policy-adoption.md from "proposals" to "policies"| 12:51:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:51:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:51:40 q+ 12:51:49 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/policy-adoption-policy/policies/policy-adoption.md proposed policy adaption policy 12:51:55 ack m 12:52:18 mm: two points; first, an issue first would be more consistent with async policy 12:52:36 q+ 12:52:39 ack e 12:52:55 ... second, 5/10 working day discussion is a bit redundant, we have another policy for that 12:52:57 mahda-noura has joined #wot 12:53:08 ege: async is for deliverables, though 12:53:17 mm: yes, I just think it would be good to be consistent 12:53:19 +1 for mentioning changing/updating 12:53:36 ege: does this include changing of policies? 12:53:42 seb: will add that 12:53:46 q? 12:54:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:54:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:57:25 q? 12:58:02 mm: note that since we are making significant changes to this policy, we should follow the group decision policy, which requires a CfR, etc. 12:58:28 kaz: agree with mm that we need to add issues 12:58:57 ... later on, we say that discussion should happen during main call 12:59:00 q+ 12:59:21 ... clarification of process around issues, where discussion happens 12:59:30 ack k 12:59:58 ack m 13:00:29 mm: since we are out of time, suggest Sebastian finishes his changes, Kaz reviews offline, and we discuss this again in a week. 13:00:52 ScribeNick: mahda-noura 13:01:17 Chair: Michael Mccool 13:03:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:03:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:07:48 Topic: Minutes 13:07:59 mm: we have adapted the review policies for the minutes 13:08:11 mm: kaz have you sent an email on the minutes? 13:08:13 kaz: yes 13:08:19 i|have|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/10/04-wot-minutes.html Oct-4| 13:08:31 mm: we can approve them, no objections to approving 13:08:46 mm: the minutes should be read in advance 13:08:52 topic: quick updates 13:09:10 q+ 13:09:10 mm: the deadline of the workshop has been extended until the end of October 13:09:11 q+ 13:09:18 mm: new CEO, no more info on that 13:09:28 q+ 13:09:36 mm: for the twitter page, the web page was not even launching at all, age what is the status? 13:10:11 kaz: let me give me a comment about the IIWoT workshop, I like to remove this topic from the weekly quick updates. Some group participants want to provide something 13:10:18 mm: we can remove it 13:10:48 mm: we can remove it from next time and future calls 13:11:09 q+ 13:11:11 cris: is anyone planning to do a paper? 13:11:50 kaz: asking people on the public mailing list would be fine, but we don't need to mention this every week 13:12:12 I'm ok removing from the agenda for next calls 13:12:24 mm: if there are events related to Wot, as a service for members we mention this we need to make it clear that it is not from W3C 13:12:37 ack k 13:12:39 ack c 13:12:45 mm: it should be under announcement of outside activitiy 13:13:05 i|we can app|-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-wg/2023Oct/0004.html Kaz's message listing all the WoT minutes| 13:13:40 mm: he added a section notices, is this resolve your issue? 13:13:58 kaz: my point is that we don't have to mention it every week 13:14:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:14:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:14:40 mm: Ege what is the current status on twitter and your plan? 13:14:56 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/ WoT marketing page 13:15:07 q? 13:15:24 ege: the issue was related to w3c, the whole timeline doesn't work, but putting a static version of the tweet it works 13:15:40 mm: I think it's fine as long as we keep it up to date 13:15:49 ege: it's fine since we don't tweet everyday 13:16:02 mm: we let the marketing group decide for further changes 13:16:43 ege: presents a short summary of the facilitation training breakout at TPAC 13:16:51 q+ to talk about WoT LinkedIn account (after this topic) 13:17:04 ege: how to better manage meetings and avoid issues 13:17:28 ack e 13:17:30 ... there is an initial version of the minutes pre-recorded 13:17:49 ...the session was hosted by Wendy Reid 13:18:16 ...there was something related to scribing, encourage newcomers to be fair. the commands should be explained beforehand 13:18:42 ...they mentioned the captions, in zoom it is strongly recommended to enable captions for two reasons 13:19:02 ...for people who have issues in understanding or for people who got distracted 13:19:14 ...the other point was a side scission about project management 13:19:30 ...some mentioned they used Github projects to manage parts of the work 13:20:15 i/presents/subtopic: Meeting Facilitation Training Breakout/ 13:20:19 ...one thing being used it grouping set of work items or a deliverable into a project 13:20:35 i|presents|-> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/11 session proposal| 13:20:50 ...they also mentioned that as a chair they have a project where they can see items from various TFs 13:21:17 ...each TF can bring wider discussions 13:21:23 ...another thing was planning agendas 13:21:37 ...tracking policies and JSON-LD has also a process 13:21:56 ...ege shows an example from cascade level 6 13:22:27 q? 13:22:31 qq+ 13:22:34 mm: I think we should follow up on project planning in another session 13:22:56 ...I want to see if we need some additional policies on topics like captioning 13:23:22 ege: I have another category, we should not disturb discussion 13:23:47 ...if there is a language issue, one person goes and explains the issue in another language 13:24:12 mm: I activated the caption, can you see it on the screen 13:25:00 mm: I don't quite understand who turns on the captions,,, and make sure the translations are accurate, we need to do a bit of testing with zoom and experiment more, but I think there are some possibilities for it 13:25:34 https://hackmd.io/@egekorkan/HywdOeEba 13:25:49 mm: you can create an issue and a process for project manageent 13:26:00 ege: before doing that we need to understand it a bit more 13:26:08 mm: let's allocate the time for this next time 13:26:25 q? 13:26:49 -> https://www.w3.org/events/happenings/2023/meeting-facilitation-training/ Meeting facilitation training 13:27:41 kaz: I have two points, one about this topic itself, the session is being organised in parallel again and please note that in any case this is proposed from the advisory board, that should be useful but it's still a proposal, we can quickly skim the discussion, maybe we might want to wait a bit before diving in the details 13:28:23 mm: from w3c viewpoint, project management is being handled separately as the team itself 13:28:31 ...we might want to wait 13:28:43 mm: how long do we need to wait? 13:29:06 mm: please update us on project management for next time 13:29:22 kaz: i am not sure if we can do such project management trainings quickly 13:29:44 ack k 13:29:45 kaz, you wanted to talk about WoT LinkedIn account (after this topic) 13:29:46 mm: if there is any news next week just update us 13:30:32 q+ 13:30:34 q+ 13:30:37 ack c 13:30:40 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-marketing/issues/416 LinkedIn Account for W3C WoT 13:30:58 kaz: as you know ege and cris we got response about linkdin account, we already have a wot account, w3c viewpoint is that we should have only one account for linkdin service 13:31:06 ack k 13:31:06 kaz, you wanted to react to Ege 13:31:07 mm: and we should use that one account 13:31:09 kaz: yes 13:32:01 Topic: meeting schedule changes 13:32:26 mm: 23rd of November there is an holiday and will be a cancelation if we have a session 13:32:29 There has been conflicting points raised by Kaz. 1) We do not have a LinkedIn account 13:32:36 mm: we should really make some progress on use case 13:32:57 ...security and architecture 13:33:07 mm: anyone having holidays for future weeks? 13:33:23 ...nobody 13:33:34 2) I have asked if it is fine via email and said to her if it is fine, you can comment in the issue. Since she commented herself, I am not sure she is "mad" 13:33:38 q? 13:34:17 q- 13:35:02 ...make sure you use the official invites due to daylight savings 13:35:27 it is fine to remove 13:35:37 mm: reschedule TD call, we leave the TD call where it is now until the daylight saving for now 13:35:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:35:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:36:10 ... we can postpone it after the daylight saving 13:36:34 ...we can have two special meetings that are not recurring for the use cases 13:36:37 q+ 13:36:46 mm: anybody have any thoughts on this plan? 13:36:47 i/23rd/subtopic: Cancellations/ 13:37:03 MIzushima: it is hard for me to participate at that time 13:37:22 i/make sure/subtopic: DST changes/ 13:37:37 i|make sure|-> https://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/b.html Daylight Saving changes| 13:37:42 q+ 13:37:47 ack mi 13:38:09 s|There has been conflicting points raised by Kaz. 1) We do not have a LinkedIn account|| 13:38:16 mm: in general it's always difficult, we have a 3hour slot, which is in the evening in Japan. the other option is to have it earlier which would be too early in pacific time, or we put it later but it would go later in Europe 13:38:21 s|2) I have asked if it is fine via email and said to her if it is fine, you can comment in the issue. Since she commented herself, I am not sure she is "mad"|| 13:38:24 mm: MIzushima do you have another proposal 13:38:37 s|it is fine to remove|| 13:38:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:38:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:38:51 MIzushima: if it is later I can join 13:38:55 q? 13:39:13 mm: if we have it an hour later would it would work for you? 13:39:21 MIzushima: 2 hours later would work 13:39:23 q? 13:39:42 mm: I think that's ok, we could have the meeting at 9 eastern 13:39:58 kaz: he has conflicts 13:40:07 mm: on Thursday what are your conflicts? 13:40:28 kaz: we should think about who is expected to join this call, having as better people there would be better 13:40:48 s/he has conflicts/conflicts with Ege, Koster and myself./ 13:41:17 mm: my thought was to look at security and discovery, and make a template for later work, it's really about organising requirement process 13:41:32 kaz: this proposed Thursday call, we can change the slot to get more participants 13:42:08 s/people there/people as possible there/ 13:42:17 mm: I think we should roll out these two meetings, I want ideally to get discovery people to show up, we want to create a template to execute on the plan I presented at TPAC 13:42:39 mm: I'm okay with making it 09:00 eastern 13:42:54 mm: any objections on me doing this? 13:43:05 ege: what slot is it, is this after TD coordination call? 13:43:10 kaz: yes right after that 13:43:30 ege: sometimes Ege and Cris may not join because of communicate meetings, but they are not regular 13:43:38 mm: should we do this an hour later? 13:43:43 ege: depends on the speaker 13:43:57 i|I'm okay|kaz: I'm also OK if this proposed use case calls is for preparation in October and we can change the slot to get more people later.| 13:44:00 mm: MIzushima does 9 pm work for you? 13:44:05 MIzushima: yes 13:44:12 mm: kaz are you fine with this time? 13:44:14 kaz: yes 13:44:36 kaz: is the conclusion 9 pm JST? 13:44:38 mm: yes 13:44:45 kaz: then it won't work for me 13:45:10 s/09:00 eastern/09:00 eastern, and have preparation discussion at that time./ 13:45:24 mm: lets schedule the next one for 22:00 JST and the week after that we can change to avoid the conflict 13:45:32 s/communicate meetings/the WoT CG meetings/ 13:45:41 mm: it won't be a re-occuring meeting 13:45:49 s/kaz: yes// 13:45:58 Topic: New IG Charter 13:46:09 mm: IG charter end December 31 this year 13:46:24 mm: as this takes long, we have to start now, the review process takes long time 13:46:29 q+ 13:46:34 q- 13:46:34 if we finish the draft by end of October, we might make it 13:46:41 s/re-occuring meeting/re-occuring meeting after that/ 13:46:55 ...do we need even an IG? we need to look what an IG does 13:46:55 s/if we finish/... if we finish/ 13:47:11 q+ 13:47:12 q+ 13:47:13 ack d 13:47:18 ack dape 13:47:20 Daniel: yesterday we looked into that yesterday in the Marketing calll 13:47:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:47:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:47:48 mm: we need to look what the IG does not, I think the use case requirement could be a WG activity or a CG activity... 13:48:40 mm: we need to start by reviewing the IG thing, can we do this in the main call or do we need another slot? 13:48:46 q? 13:48:58 mm: I think trying to squeeze it in the main call won't work 13:49:29 ...propose date 18 Oct to discuss 13:50:02 +1 13:50:16 ...does anybody object this additional slot to discuss this next week? 13:50:46 kaz: that is what I mentioned in TPAC about clarifying the role of IG, CG and WG 13:50:47 (none) 13:50:56 s/role of/roles of/ 13:51:07 q+ 13:51:09 ack k 13:51:17 mm: what is the status of the REC publication 13:51:56 i|what is|topic: REC preparation| 13:52:04 i|what is|subtopic: TD| 13:52:20 mm: preset release is not quite ready, we need another week 13:52:41 i|preset|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1897 PR 1897 - Adjust affiliations| 13:52:49 ...we have the actual documents themselves and the resources to cleanup 13:52:57 s/preset release/press release/ 13:53:13 i|press release|subtopic: Press Release| 13:53:22 Topic: Resources 13:53:34 s/Topic:/subtopic:/ 13:53:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:53:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:53:53 mm: I noticed the TD group re-oragnized thing, now two directories for organising the TD for the different versions 13:55:16 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-resources/pull/2 wot-resources PR 2 - Add td folder structure 13:55:22 https://github.com/w3c/wot-resources/pull/1 13:55:28 .....any objections to merge the PRs? 13:55:33 (none) 13:55:37 +1 to merge 13:55:47 s/the PR/those PR/ 13:56:03 s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-resources/pull/1|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-resources/pull/1 wot-resources PR 1 - Proposed Structure Example| 13:56:13 mm: we need to complete the stating in each TF and create PRs in wot-resources 13:56:36 s/stating/staging/ 13:57:00 s/resources/resources to transfer all the resources/ 13:57:19 subtopic: Press Release - revisited 13:57:26 mm: there are several pending PRs for press releases, I have added a label, but there are 3 open PR's that we need to discuss 13:57:47 mm: we are still waiting for the testimonial from Oracle, we will still wait another week 13:57:48 i|there are|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/MARKETING/PressReleaseDrafts/2023/draft.md Draft Press Release| 13:58:15 ...there are some editorial changes from Koalie, I think we should merge them, I am happy with these 13:59:14 i|we are|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues?q=label%3APress PRs with "Press" label 13:59:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:59:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:59:29 ...she actually merged some sentences with a "and" conjuction 14:00:09 ...she also merged some another sentence, but they are two completely different topics, I personally would like to revert this change 14:00:24 ...I will do a review, and we will get back to this 14:00:57 ...the final PR is an old one from Michal legally, for changing the title of the marketing 14:01:30 ...I have no strong opinion on either way on the wording 14:01:55 ...we could finalise next week 14:02:15 ...we are in the middle of the 2 weeks for WG cfR review period 14:02:29 q? 14:02:33 ack e 14:02:36 q+ 14:02:54 kaz: for the Japanese version I have the Japanese team 14:03:03 mm: it's going to take at least a week 14:03:06 kaz: yes 14:03:08 s/I have/I'll help/ 14:03:13 mm: what languages? 14:03:14 TallTed has joined #wot 14:03:19 kaz: French, Chinese, Japaneese 14:03:47 mm:I think automatic translations are good enough these days, but we have to check them 14:04:14 s/Japaneese/Japanese 14:04:28 small note: Next CG event will be on November 2nd where we will do a live coding session and dig into how bindings work 14:04:41 q+ 14:05:48 i/small note:/topic: Meetups/ 14:05:54 s/Meetups/FYI/ 14:06:12