IRC log of aria-apg on 2023-10-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:57:35 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/03-aria-apg-irc
17:57:39 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:57:40 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
17:57:58 [Matt_King]
MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:58:07 [Matt_King]
CAIR: Jemma
17:58:17 [Matt_King]
CHAIR: Jemma
17:58:21 [Matt_King]
present+
17:58:26 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:59:57 [arigilmore]
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17:59:59 [jugglinmike]
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18:01:41 [howard-e]
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present+
18:01:55 [Jem]
present+
18:02:00 [Jem]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:02:17 [jugglinmike]
present+ jugglinmike
18:02:25 [arigilmore]
present_
18:02:28 [arigilmore]
present+
18:02:36 [jugglinmike]
scribe+ jugglinmike
18:02:40 [Jem]
present+ Ariellagilmore
18:03:10 [Jem]
regret+ Curt
18:03:18 [Jem]
regret+ jongund
18:03:41 [Jem]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:04:02 [jugglinmike]
present+ Andrea_Cardona
18:04:24 [jugglinmike]
present+ dmontalvo
18:04:27 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/October-3%2C-2023-Agenda
18:04:48 [dmontalvo]
present+ Daniel
18:04:50 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Our next meeting is Tuesday, October 10
18:05:35 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Status of Site Updates
18:05:47 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I saw that Shawn published the changes this morning
18:05:58 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: All 7 of the items in this list on the agenda were published
18:06:03 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Some awesome steps forward here
18:06:19 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I haven't done anything yet to validate that things are good in production
18:07:09 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I'd appreciate if anyone could volunteer to make sure all these things are present, but I will eventually get to it if no one else does
18:07:22 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I'm pretty tied up this week, but I can try on Sunday night
18:07:35 [jugglinmike]
dmontalvo: I'll take a look as well
18:08:09 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Thanks! There's one in particular that I'd like you to look at because it's totally visual--the combobox CSS fix
18:08:19 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: That's it for site updates. Thank you to everyone for all the help!
18:08:43 [jugglinmike]
Topic: PR 2775: Feed example changes
18:08:50 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2775
18:09:30 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: As we've been reviewing this pull request, we've run into some problems with making the iframe work
18:10:12 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: howard-e merged a change by jugglinmike in WAI-ARIA Practices. I wasn't clear about what that was doing
18:13:43 [jugglinmike]
jugglinmike: My fix addresses the problem on my machine, and howard-e verified it, as well. Unfortunately, it appears to have had no effect on the preview system.
18:14:51 [jugglinmike]
jugglinmike: I haven't been able to identify why this is the case, yet. Alex_Flenniken will likely be taking a look in the coming months
18:15:18 [siri]
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18:15:19 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Thanks. Let's assume that technical problem is solvable. There's another aspect I'd like to discuss
18:15:58 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Aaron Leventhal has reported that putting examples inside iframes makes it much easier to direct people to them
18:16:21 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I began wondering if this is a pattern we could replicate across the APG--placing all examples within the iframe
18:16:52 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Was Aaron's request sent to you via e-mail or on GitHub?
18:17:57 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Via GitHub--issue #2386 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2386
18:18:36 [jugglinmike]
howard-e: I like that proposal
18:18:57 [jugglinmike]
howard-e: There's an opportunity for ARIA-AT to use the more bare-bones versions of the example pages
18:19:14 [jugglinmike]
howard-e: I worry about how tests may have to be changed to account for this, but right now, I do like the thought
18:19:38 [dmontalvo]
q+ James
18:19:41 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: If arigilmore was into us turning her project into a big old experiment, we could try it with this PR
18:21:06 [jugglinmike]
James: Couldn't we host the examples as standalone documents and also build them directly into the pages where they are currently rendered?
18:21:34 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: So in the ARIA-Practices, we would continue to do things just like we do today?
18:21:56 [jugglinmike]
James: I guess you could do it that way, but I was expecting to do define them as standalone documents and then build them in
18:22:26 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: To solve 2386, we could write some code that extracts and duplicate that content during the build process
18:23:27 [dmontalvo]
ack james
18:27:40 [jugglinmike]
jugglinmike: There may be some examples where an iframe is less appropriate. Dialog for instance
18:29:44 [jugglinmike]
jugglinmike: But in general, I like the idea of pursing the iframe route (rather than generating a separate document by extracting the example source) because it increases parity between how people experience the examples in either context
18:30:34 [jugglinmike]
jugglinmike: As those experiences diverge, I worry about differences which result from our build process
18:31:23 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: If this works, though, then eventually, we might put iframes on every example page
18:31:48 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Once we figured out a pattern, it probably wouldn't be that large of a project to move in that direction
18:37:40 [jugglinmike]
[discussion about how such an iframe would work generally for APG examples]
18:41:43 [jugglinmike]
jugglinmike: We also have to consider how we manage the examples' controls. For arigilmore patch, we intentionally placed the controls outside of the iframe, but it's not clear if/how we should include them for folks who access the iframe content directly
18:41:53 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Potential combobox value bug?
18:42:03 [jugglinmike]
link: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2813
18:43:42 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I could use some help verifying this because it was reported with a screenshot
18:43:51 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I can't tell which example it concerns
18:44:38 [jugglinmike]
Jem: It looks like the Editable Combobox with Both List and Inline Autocomplete Example
18:44:38 [Jem]
Editable Combobox With Both List and Inline Autocomplete Example
18:44:45 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Thanks; I'll add a link in the issue itself
18:45:55 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: What is the issue when they put in a number less than 10?
18:46:18 [jugglinmike]
Jem: VoiceOver says the number followed by "s t a t e"
18:46:59 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: This sounds like it might be a screen reader bug, if it is a bug
18:47:31 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I'm going to follow up with the reporter
18:47:38 [Jem]
Topic: PR 1611: Markup for keybord chords
18:48:02 [jugglinmike]
Topic: PR 1611: Markup for keybord chords
18:48:11 [jugglinmike]
github: PR 1611: Markup for keybord chords
18:48:20 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I've put a table in the agenda that shows what Nick had proposed
18:49:36 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Currently, when we write our keyboard commands, like in this table, we use the <kbd> element to wrap entire chords
18:50:00 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Nick recommends wrapping each key in its own <kbd> element
18:50:30 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Visually, Nick's suggestion looks more coherent
18:51:07 [jugglinmike]
Andrea_Cardona: Is the current markup confusing?
18:51:20 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I don't know if it's confusing anyone, but I don't know if it's technically correct
18:52:00 [jugglinmike]
Jem: because, for instance, there is no "Control plus V" button. There is a "Control" button and a "V" button; the markup Nick recommends reflects that
18:52:18 [jugglinmike]
Andrea_Cardona: Yeah, that makes sense to me
18:52:38 [Jem]
Topic: Issue 697 about aria-expanded=false on menu buttons
18:52:41 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I can write a patch. It will modify a lot of files, so the trick for me is to figure out when to submit it
18:52:52 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Issue 697 about aria-expanded=false on menu buttons
18:53:07 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/697
18:53:44 [jugglinmike]
s/a patch/a patch for issue gh-1611/
18:54:08 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: People were so confused by this that they were suggesting a new property in gh-697
18:54:18 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I have written a pull request which removes the recommendation
18:54:30 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: If we go that route, we will need to change three menu button examples
18:54:50 [jugglinmike]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:55:23 [jugglinmike]
Bryan_Garaventa: we originally proposed this because on some devices (E.g. those based on touch), you cannot perceive menu hierarchy
18:55:31 [jugglinmike]
Bryan_Garaventa: That leads me to two questions
18:55:52 [jugglinmike]
Bryan_Garaventa: How do you identify hierarchy if you take it out?
18:56:11 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Today, our menu buttons don't have "aria-expanded=false" when they are collapsed
18:56:22 [jugglinmike]
Bryan_Garaventa: Oh, so this isn't about removing the attribute
18:56:43 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: No, so it's about applying it consistently
18:56:51 [siri]
+1
18:57:11 [jugglinmike]
Bryan_Garaventa: Ah! Yes, I would recommend consistency. Especially for those using touch screen devices
18:57:23 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: The clarity of knowing that it is collapsed is helpful
18:58:06 [dmontalvo]
+1 to adding aria-expanded="false" when collapsed for clarity.
18:58:23 [jugglinmike]
present+ siri
18:58:44 [jugglinmike]
siri: I support this, as well
18:58:54 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Sounds like we have a lot of votes here, all in favor!
18:59:09 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: There are three menu button examples that would need to change
18:59:16 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I have already submitted a pull request for the pattern
18:59:35 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I think this should be two separate pull requests. I think the code changes should be done in a separate pull request
19:06:26 [jamesn]
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19:20:54 [jugglinmike]
Zakim, end the meeting
19:20:54 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, howard-e, Jem, jugglinmike, arigilmore, Ariellagilmore, Andrea_Cardona, dmontalvo, Daniel, Bryan_Garaventa, siri
19:20:57 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:20:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:21:35 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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19:21:36 [jugglinmike]
RRSAgent, leave
19:21:36 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items