16:01:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:01:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-irc
16:01:47 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:02:03 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230928T120000/
16:02:03 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:02:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Gschwend, Adrian (alternate: Pellissier Tanon, Thomas)
16:02:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week's & TPAC minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
16:02:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
16:02:07 <agendabot> agenda+ Semantics feedback
16:02:09 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
16:02:12 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:02:35 <gkellogg> scribe+
16:02:38 <gkellogg> present+
16:02:39 <Dominik_T> present+
16:02:42 <ora> present+
16:02:44 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:02:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Gschwend, Adrian (alternate: Pellissier Tanon, Thomas) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:02:50 <gkellogg> zakim, close item 1
16:02:50 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, gkellogg
16:02:56 <gkellogg> q?
16:02:58 <ktk> Zakim, draft minutes
16:02:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', ktk
16:03:02 <gtw> present+
16:03:05 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:03:14 <ktk> RRSAgent, make minutes public
16:03:14 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ktk.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:03:14 <gkellogg> zakim, close 1
16:03:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close 1', gkellogg
16:03:22 <gkellogg> zakim, close item 1
16:03:22 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, gkellogg
16:03:25 <gkellogg> q-
16:03:27 <AndyS> present+
16:03:31 <gkellogg> ack AndyS
16:03:38 <gkellogg> zakim, close item 1
16:03:38 <Zakim> agendum 1, Scribe: Gschwend, Adrian (alternate: Pellissier Tanon, Thomas), closed
16:03:39 <AndyS> ack AndyS
16:03:40 <Tpt> present+
16:03:40 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:03:40 <Zakim> 2. Approval of last week's & TPAC minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:03:44 <gkellogg> zakim, open item 2
16:03:44 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's & TPAC minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:01 <ktk> present+
16:04:04 <olaf> present+
16:04:04 <ktk> Chair: ktk
16:04:07 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:04:09 <AZ> present+
16:04:10 <enrico> Present+
16:04:26 <enrico> present+
16:04:27 <gkellogg> regrets+ niklasl
16:04:39 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:04:47 <Souri> present+
16:04:54 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:04:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:04:57 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:04:58 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star TPAC 2023-09-28 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230928T120000/
16:05:00 <TallTed> present+
16:05:02 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:05:25 <AndyS> Last time: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:05:25 <gkellogg> ktk: Minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:05:33 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:05:52 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes
16:05:56 <gkellogg> <gkellogg> +1
16:05:56 <olaf> +1
16:05:58 <ktk> +1
16:05:58 <Dominik_T> 1+
16:06:06 <gtw> +1
16:06:06 <TallTed> +1
16:06:06 <enrico> +1
16:06:06 <AZ> +0 (was not present)
16:06:06 <AndyS> +1
16:06:09 <Souri> +1
16:06:20 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve last week's minutes
16:06:30 <gkellogg> ktk: Minutes from TPAC https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:07:04 <gkellogg> ... pchampin applied the fixes.
16:07:52 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2023-09-12
16:07:54 <gkellogg> <gkellogg> +1
16:07:55 <Dominik_T> +1
16:07:57 <ktk> +1
16:07:58 <AndyS> +1
16:07:59 <ora> +1
16:08:02 <Tpt> +1
16:08:15 <gtw> +1
16:08:15 <AZ> +1
16:08:17 <TallTed> +1
16:08:19 <olaf> +1
16:08:21 <enrico> +1
16:08:29 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2023-09-12
16:08:33 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:08:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:08:41 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:08:41 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -- taken up [from 2]
16:08:57 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:09:33 <TallTed> s|available at|available at https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3|
16:09:42 <gkellogg> close #85
16:09:44 <gb> Closed -> action #85 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/85
16:10:03 <gkellogg> subtopic #86
16:10:03 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/86 -> Action 86 Follow up to persons concerned regarding SPARQL EXISTS (on afs, pfps) due 2023-09-19
16:10:15 <gkellogg> s/subtopic/subtopic:/
16:10:21 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:10:41 <gkellogg> ktk: pfps seems to have completed this item. I also sent to Pavel.
16:11:43 <gkellogg> close #86
16:11:44 <gb> Closed -> action #86 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/86
16:12:17 <gkellogg> pfps: pchampin completed work for #92
16:12:18 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/92 -> Action 92 email where section headings should go (on pfps) due 2023-09-28
16:12:22 <gkellogg> close #92
16:12:23 <gb> Closed -> action #92 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/92
16:12:36 <gkellogg> pfps: Last week's meeting's scribe should have been me.
16:13:04 <gkellogg> ... (it is correct, sorry)
16:13:45 <gkellogg> close #93
16:13:45 <gb> Closed -> action #93 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/93
16:14:14 <gkellogg> subtopic #19
16:14:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/19 -> Action 19 work with antoine and others to come up with a proposal for weak and strong compliance (on Antoine-Zimmermann, rdfguy)
16:14:23 <gkellogg> az: I'm not sure how to move forward with this.
16:14:33 <TallTed> s/subtopic #19/subtopic: #19/
16:14:58 <gkellogg> ora: I'm not sure what we should do next, We need some statement about compliance.
16:15:13 <gkellogg> ... I suggest everyone review this issue and review for next week.
16:15:49 <gkellogg> ... az and I will go and clean up the comments.
16:16:01 <gkellogg> az: Reading the whole thread would not be productive.
16:16:42 <gkellogg> az: I'll work on cleaning this up.
16:17:00 <gkellogg> ktk: Please send out an email when it's ready for review.
16:17:34 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:17:34 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 3]
16:17:59 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:18:15 <TallTed> s|available at|available at https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4|
16:18:41 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:18:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:18:49 <gkellogg> subtopic: w3c/rdf-concepts#48
16:18:49 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/48 -> Pull Request 48 Add base direction as a fourth element of literals. (by gkellogg) [i18n-tracker] [needs discussion]
16:18:54 <TallTed> q+
16:18:54 <ktk> q?
16:19:33 <gkellogg> TallTed: I have a process comment. I think there should be a better way to present 2, 3, or four elements and the structure isn't quite clean enough.
16:20:27 <gkellogg> Related is w3c/rdf-n-triples#34.
16:20:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/issues/34 -> Pull Request 34 Adds BNF and text to extend LANGTAG to support base direction  (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive]
16:20:53 <pfps> q+
16:20:59 <ktk> ack TallTed
16:21:03 <ktk> ack pfps
16:21:14 <gkellogg> pfps: Is the datatype required of all RDF implementations.
16:21:15 <TallTed> s/process comment/comment-in-process on rdf-concepts#48/
16:21:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/48 -> Pull Request 48 Add base direction as a fourth element of literals. (by gkellogg) [i18n-tracker] [needs discussion]
16:21:28 <gkellogg> gkellogg: I think so.
16:23:06 <gkellogg> ... Eventually, should go in what's new in RDF 1.2 but now is in changes since 1.1.
16:23:21 <gkellogg> pfps: Someone at some point should make sure this is correct.
16:23:59 <gkellogg> ktk: Proposal is to is to accept the two PRs baring last minute editorial changes.
16:24:33 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:24:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:25:10 <AZ> s/is to is to/is to/
16:25:10 <gkellogg> PROPOSAL: Add base direction as a forth element of Literals, relating to w3c/rdf-concepts#48 and w3c/rdf-n-triples#34.
16:25:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/48 -> Pull Request 48 Add base direction as a fourth element of literals. (by gkellogg) [i18n-tracker] [needs discussion]
16:25:10 <gkellogg> gkellogg> +1
16:25:10 <AZ> +1
16:25:11 <pfps> 0 - I still worry that this is neither necessary nor sufficient but it is "mostly harmless"
16:25:14 <ktk> +1
16:25:17 <AndyS> +1
16:25:19 <ora> +1
16:25:19 <TallTed> +1
16:25:20 <olaf> +1
16:25:24 <gtw> +1
16:25:42 <AndyS> s/forth/fourth/
16:26:14 <Tpt> +1
16:26:31 <gkellogg> TallTed: Please, let's give w3c/rdf-concepts#48 until next week for editorial time.
16:26:39 <Dominik_T> +1
16:26:40 <enrico> +1
16:26:44 <Souri> +0 - I have to study it more carefully
16:26:46 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Add base direction as a forth element of Literals, relating to w3c/rdf-concepts#48 and w3c/rdf-n-triples#34.
16:26:47 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/issues/34 -> Pull Request 34 Adds BNF and text to extend LANGTAG to support base direction  (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive]
16:26:47 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/48 -> Pull Request 48 Add base direction as a fourth element of literals. (by gkellogg) [i18n-tracker] [needs discussion]
16:27:10 <gkellogg> ktk: You can always open something new on this.
16:27:20 <olaf> q+
16:27:48 <gkellogg> ktk: Some of the editorial PRs have been there for two weeks, and should probably just be merged.
16:28:16 <gkellogg> ... w3c/rdf-turtle#39
16:28:17 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/39 -> Pull Request 39 Unicode terminology and representation updates. (by gkellogg) [spec:editorial]
16:29:18 <ktk> q?
16:30:09 <gkellogg> gkellogg: I think we might want to come back on this in a subsequent PR
16:30:20 <gkellogg> TallTed: I want to make it as clear as possible for new people.
16:30:28 <pfps> q+ to suggest using both, if possible
16:30:31 <pfps> q-
16:30:39 <gkellogg> gkellogg: Maybe use character with a tool-tip and link to a definition.
16:31:01 <gkellogg> TallTed: Multiple characters that roughly look the same can be a problem for non-english natives.
16:31:48 <gkellogg> gkellogg: suggest we merged.
16:31:57 <pfps> Similar characters can also be a problem for English natives - they don't even need to be all that similar.
16:32:19 <gkellogg> subtopic: w3c/rdf-schema#27
16:32:20 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/27 -> CLOSED Pull Request 27 added rdf:JSON datatype (by domel) [spec:editorial]
16:32:24 <gkellogg> ktk: This can be merged.
16:32:46 <gkellogg> subtopic: w3c/sparql-query#123
16:32:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/123 -> Pull Request 123 Fixes the definition of the Flatten function (by hartig) [spec:editorial]
16:33:02 <gkellogg> olaf: I wanted to bring this one up for attention.
16:33:15 <gkellogg> subtopic: w3c/sparql-query#124
16:33:16 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/124 -> Pull Request 124 Improves the section about the Sum set function (by hartig) [spec:editorial]
16:33:23 <ktk> q?
16:33:26 <ktk> ack olaf
16:33:30 <gkellogg> olaf: This is an in-progress proposal that I'd like feedback on.
16:33:51 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:33:55 <gkellogg> ... If other co-editors can have a look, I'll make changes to similar functions (MIN, MAX, ...)
16:34:22 <gkellogg> subtopic: w3c/sparql-query#110
16:34:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/110 -> Pull Request 110 WIP: introduces a function called multiplicity to replace card[Ω](μ) (by hartig)
16:34:54 <gkellogg> olaf: Please, if editors can also look at this proposal, I'll need to do more edits, but want to be sure it's generally acceptable.
16:35:03 <ktk> q?
16:35:29 <gkellogg> subtopic: w3c/rdf-concepts#66
16:35:30 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/66 -> Pull Request 66 Updates rdf:JSON value space. (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive]
16:36:22 <AndyS> q+
16:36:31 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:36:53 <gkellogg> AndyS: It might be helpful if we could see what the differences are in effect.
16:37:05 <gkellogg> ... Particularly comparing how canonicalization works.
16:37:28 <ktk> niklasl: can you present plus?
16:37:39 <gkellogg> ... I don't think we've seen what the effect would actually be and what the tradeoffs are.
16:37:54 <niklasl> present+
16:38:06 <Dominik_T> I-JSON https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7493.html
16:38:29 <gkellogg> AndyS: I-JSON focuses on the JSON that processors agree on, rather than a flawed original representation.
16:38:55 <pfps> q+ to commment on the lexical space
16:39:09 <gkellogg> gkellogg: I'm not aware of any thing currently depending on the details of the value space.
16:39:15 <ktk> ack pfps
16:39:15 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to commment on the lexical space
16:39:32 <gkellogg> pfps: My worry is that the value space will change, which is significant. It will change in a restrictive way.
16:39:32 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
16:40:03 <gkellogg> ... I also worry that the value space of I-JSON is not properly defined.
16:40:48 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:40:48 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Semantics feedback -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:41:21 <gkellogg> ktk: I was at Semantics in Leipzig, which was interesting due to the interest in RDF-star.
16:41:44 <gkellogg> ... There was some interest from Thomas Loertch who looked me up.
16:42:03 <gkellogg> ... Dydra is becoming a W3C member and he plans to join the WG.
16:42:15 <gkellogg> ... I assume he'll join via Dydra.
16:42:37 <gkellogg> ... I also talked with another company that does a lot of work on exporting RDF to Neo4J.
16:42:49 <gkellogg> ... The read some papers and have a lot of ideas.
16:43:25 <gkellogg> ... I encouraged them to read the use cases and contact me or others as we're really interested in real-world applications
16:43:47 <gkellogg> ... It was great to see people come up, it demonstrates interest in the community.
16:43:52 <olaf> s/The read/They read/
16:44:02 <ktk> q?
16:44:13 <gkellogg> zakim, next item
16:44:13 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Issue Triage, available at -- taken up [from 4]
16:44:22 <AndyS> q+
16:44:27 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
16:44:36 <TallTed> s/baring/barring/
16:45:02 <gkellogg> AndyS: If we're doing a two week cycle on technical vs process, can we be sure what the topic is going to be for next week?
16:45:25 <gkellogg> ... I'm happy for the chairs to choose the topic, but I want to be able to read the background material.
16:45:32 <gkellogg> ktk: Noted.
16:46:27 <gkellogg> close #54
16:46:29 <gb> Closed -> issue #54 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/54
16:47:49 <gkellogg> ktk: we should remove the "duscuss-f2f" from those issues.
16:48:07 <gkellogg> AndyS: The Echidna issue was paused due to random errors.
16:48:28 <gkellogg> w3c/rdf-concepts#55
16:48:28 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/55 -> Issue 55 Compare language tags after normalizing to lower case. (by gkellogg) [discuss-f2f] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
16:50:38 <pfps> at some time all issues need to be resolved so it is useful to have them all in a list somewherhe
16:51:02 <pfps> s/somewherhe/somewhere/
16:51:53 <gkellogg> subtopic: w3c/rdf-concepts#55
16:52:08 <gkellogg> AndyS: It's also a normalization case.
16:52:23 <gkellogg> ... I emailed the Jena users list for feedback.
16:52:39 <gkellogg> ... There are people for whom it's important.
16:52:53 <gkellogg> ... Important is how to normalize
16:52:56 <gkellogg> q+
16:52:59 <gkellogg> ack AndyS
16:54:00 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:54:50 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:55:32 <gkellogg> gkellogg: There's a question on how many triples get added to a graph.
16:55:47 <gkellogg> AndyS: If we're going to do it, we should choose a normalization form.
16:56:23 <gkellogg> ... A processor would place the literal into normalized form.
16:56:34 <gkellogg> ktk: Let's follow up on the issue.
16:56:54 <gkellogg> zakim, next item
16:56:54 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:57:02 <gkellogg> ktk: is there a semantics TF tomorrow?
16:57:09 <ora> Thanks Adrian for chairing and Gregg for scribing.
16:57:10 <gkellogg> enrico: Yes, I'll send out the update.
16:57:15 <AZ> bye
16:57:25 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:57:33 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
16:57:58 <ktk> regrets- niklasl
16:58:15 <gkellogg> zakim, end meeting
16:58:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been rubensworks, ora, gkellogg, pchampin, gtw, olaf, AndyS, Dominik_T, pfps, Tpt, TallTed, draggett, niklasl, Souri_, ktk, AZ, enrico, Souri
16:58:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:58:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:58:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gkellogg; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:58:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
16:58:29 <timbl> timbl has joined #rdf-star
16:58:51 <gkellogg> rrsagent, bye
16:58:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
<pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> meeting: RDF-star Working Group Weekly Meeting