IRC log of i18n on 2023-09-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:44:59 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-irc
13:45:04 [Zakim]
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13:45:22 [addison]
Meeting: Internationalization (I18N) Working Group Teleconference
13:45:22 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
13:45:28 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c5b143d1-0a5b-4adb-8d60-0f5f9bfe5a41/20230928T150000/
13:45:28 [agendabot]
clear agenda
13:45:29 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda Review
13:45:29 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Items
13:45:30 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share
13:45:32 [agendabot]
agenda+ RADAR Review
13:45:34 [agendabot]
agenda+ Pending Issue Review
13:45:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:45:38 [agendabot]
agenda+ I18N ⇔ CSS
13:45:42 [agendabot]
agenda+ WCAG (just in case we need it)
13:45:43 [agendabot]
agenda+ Adapt#240 and Unicode SAH
13:45:43 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
13:45:45 [agendabot]
agenda+ Definition of 'string' revisited
13:45:46 [agendabot]
agenda+ AOB?
13:46:46 [addison]
agenda+ Internationalization Review for VCDM 2.0
13:48:37 [addison]
agenda+ "needs-review" reviews
13:55:17 [addison]
present+ Addison
13:55:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:58:30 [addison]
present+ Atsushi
14:01:02 [addison]
present+ Richard
14:02:06 [na]
na has joined #i18n
14:03:02 [xfq_]
xfq_ has joined #i18n
14:03:13 [xfq]
xfq has joined #i18n
14:03:40 [David]
David has joined #I18n
14:14:00 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:14:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:14:04 [addison]
agenda?
14:14:13 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
14:14:30 [xfq]
scribe: xfq
14:14:35 [addison]
zakim, take up agnedum 2
14:14:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up agnedum 2', addison
14:14:46 [gb]
Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #47, #46, #45, #44, #43, #42, #41, #39, #35, #33, #32, #18, #16, #13, #12, #11, #10, #9, #8, #7, #5, #4
14:14:51 [addison]
#47
14:14:51 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04
14:15:03 [addison]
#46
14:15:04 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46 -> Action 46 read the string-meta explainer and consider the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28
14:15:33 [addison]
#45
14:15:34 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/45 -> Action 45 connect unicode sah to the adapt 240 thread (on aphillips) due 2023-09-28
14:15:45 [xfq]
rrsagent, make log public
14:15:48 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:15:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:15:55 [addison]
close #45
14:15:55 [gb]
Closed -> action #45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/45
14:15:55 [addison]
#44
14:15:55 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/44 -> Action 44 follow up on the bidi thread of rdf-star (on r12a) due 2023-09-19
14:16:05 [addison]
#43
14:16:05 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18
14:16:14 [addison]
#42
14:16:14 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42 -> Action 42 work on tc39 proposal (meet with addison and eemeli to start) (on xfq) due 2023-09-18
14:16:43 [addison]
#41
14:16:44 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/41 -> Action 41 propose new specdev text on strings for xml (on aphillips) due 2023-09-07
14:17:02 [addison]
#39
14:17:02 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39 -> Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31
14:17:20 [addison]
#35
14:17:20 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30
14:17:31 [addison]
#33
14:17:32 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
14:18:03 [xfq]
\o/
14:18:14 [r12a]
\o/+
14:18:22 [xfq]
addison: I've now reviewed all of the needs resolution issues marked closed
14:18:38 [xfq]
... and the only ones still open are the ones that I'm bringing back to the WG for review
14:18:53 [xfq]
... I have an agenda item today for us to look at that
14:19:00 [addison]
#32
14:19:00 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32 -> Action 32 Approve the character markup PR (on fantasai) due 2023-08-17
14:19:06 [addison]
#18
14:19:07 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)
14:19:16 [addison]
#16
14:19:16 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips)
14:19:21 [xfq]
... we still have a significant number of tracker marked close issues
14:19:29 [addison]
#13
14:19:29 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/13 -> Action 13 Make sure generics are comfortable to read in the content language (on frivoal)
14:19:31 [xfq]
... and I'm working through those
14:21:02 [xfq]
addison: this one relates to the addition of additional generics at TPAC
14:21:04 [xfq]
... we discussed with them that they're going to add additional generic mechanism
14:21:11 [addison]
close #13
14:21:13 [gb]
Closed -> action #13 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/13
14:21:17 [addison]
#12
14:21:19 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips)
14:21:35 [addison]
#11
14:21:35 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal)
14:21:54 [addison]
#10
14:21:54 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai)
14:22:01 [addison]
#9
14:22:01 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/9 -> Action 9 Follow up with ecma-402 on next steps and start tc39 discussion (on aphillips)
14:22:32 [addison]
close #9
14:22:34 [gb]
Closed -> action #9 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/9
14:22:39 [addison]
#8
14:22:40 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips)
14:22:45 [addison]
#7
14:22:45 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github)
14:23:03 [addison]
#5
14:23:04 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a)
14:23:17 [addison]
#4
14:23:18 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a)
14:24:18 [xfq]
addison: my intention is to publish specdev out to /TR
14:24:31 [xfq]
... so that it's somewhat in sync with tr-design
14:24:53 [xfq]
... and then we can go back and get the image stuff in tr-design
14:25:17 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:25:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:25:32 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:25:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:25:55 [xfq]
present+ David, xfq
14:26:20 [xfq]
addison: I worked with PLH to insert some additional guard steps into the process
14:26:42 [xfq]
... our transitions will not proceed if we have a needs resolution issue open
14:26:55 [xfq]
s/if we have a needs resolution issue open/if we have a needs resolution issue open against a spec
14:27:19 [xfq]
... I think that's a good thing
14:27:48 [xfq]
... I'm going to be working with PLH and some of the AC reps to push on companies that haven't contributed to this WG
14:28:13 [xfq]
... try to generate some more participation
14:28:38 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
14:28:38 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:28:40 [xfq]
... if you could think of people who ought to be participating and who work for a member company, let me know
14:29:16 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:29:32 [xfq]
addison: we have no new incoming requests
14:30:26 [xfq]
xfq: no issues for DAPT
14:31:19 [xfq]
addison: Securing Verifiable Credentials using JOSE and COSE
14:31:28 [xfq]
... they have an i18n consideration section
14:31:37 [xfq]
... I did look at it and filed an issue about that
14:31:53 [xfq]
... mainly because I think they should remove their i18n consideration section
14:31:59 [xfq]
... it doesn't say anything useful
14:32:36 [Jck]
Jck has joined #i18n
14:32:47 [xfq]
r12a: include a note so the implementers don't ignore the i18n considerations
14:32:55 [xfq]
... which sounded to me quite useful
14:32:56 [Jck]
present+ JcK
14:34:12 [addison]
agenda?
14:34:15 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
14:34:28 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
14:34:29 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- I18N ⇔ CSS -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:34:40 [xfq]
https://www.w3.org/2023/09/27-i18n-minutes.html
14:34:49 [addison]
fuqiao: discussed a few things
14:34:55 [addison]
... generic font family
14:35:16 [addison]
... florian says the wg wasn't sure about adding new generics, but no longer the case
14:35:26 [addison]
... if useful we can add them
14:35:41 [addison]
... he thinks we should start making a list of font faces, what their license is
14:35:53 [addison]
... which generic they belong to
14:36:03 [addison]
... has some questions about richard's article
14:36:35 [addison]
addison: who is "we"? I18N?
14:36:40 [addison]
fuqiao: i18n + css
14:36:57 [addison]
... wonders if the article is the list of the most important ones
14:37:31 [addison]
richard: the article just picks several styles to make clear what we're talking about
14:37:32 [xfq]
scribe+ addison
14:37:43 [addison]
... that we need to support styles, not meant to be exhaustive
14:37:52 [xfq]
https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/typography/fontstyles.en.html
14:37:53 [addison]
... if you read my orthography notes
14:38:09 [addison]
... came across one the other day, sure there are plenty more
14:38:52 [xfq]
addison: I think some of the lreq group might want to think about it
14:40:05 [xfq]
Jck: Arabic is an example you probably do not want to use
14:40:21 [xfq]
addison: the Arabic script has a variety of font styles
14:40:28 [xfq]
... r12a's article has a number of those
14:40:43 [xfq]
... how one would approach, I'm not 100% sure
14:41:04 [xfq]
... but that seems like an area where we would want the community to work through it
14:41:14 [r12a]
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/switch.html?section=writing_styles
14:41:24 [r12a]
^ just lists a few
14:43:17 [xfq]
addison: here's a list of fonts, here's what license they have, etc.
14:43:32 [xfq]
r12a: I was worried a bit when we're trying to list all the fonts
14:43:55 [xfq]
... I think what is useful is to list the system fonts, pre-installed system fonts, for a particular orthography
14:44:25 [xfq]
... for some languages where there is no installed font it gets a little more complicated
14:44:47 [xfq]
addison: I would expect if there's a system installed font on the major platforms for a generic family
14:45:08 [xfq]
r12a: Apple gives you access to most of the Noto fonts
14:45:14 [xfq]
... but I don't think Windows does that
14:45:50 [xfq]
addison: if we start with a well described space like Chinese
14:45:59 [xfq]
... that can serve as a model for other languages
14:46:28 [xfq]
r12a: I think what is also gonna be necessary though is a clear description of why people use this particular font style
14:46:49 [xfq]
https://www.w3.org/TR/clreq/#four_commonly_used_typefaces_for_chinese_composition
14:47:37 [addison]
action: xfq to work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal
14:47:44 [gb]
Created -> action #48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/48
14:48:47 [xfq]
atsushi: we cannot divide fonts into categories clearly, like some fonts are for accessibility
14:50:23 [xfq]
r12a: bear in mind there are minority languages that have distinct styling
14:50:32 [xfq]
... two very different ways of being written
14:50:39 [addison]
agenda?
14:50:43 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
14:51:18 [r12a]
q+
14:51:27 [addison]
fuqiao: about sideways-rl etc., florian says no news, curious if a language needs this
14:51:38 [xfq]
ack r12a
14:51:44 [xfq]
r12a: English
14:52:30 [xfq]
... we have people like Jen from Apple who put tutorials together telling people that if they want to put their English text running bottom to top or top to bottom
14:53:17 [xfq]
addison: it's no one's primary writing mode that I'm aware of
14:53:25 [xfq]
... but it's a secondary mode that people need
14:55:34 [addison]
action: addison to contact unicode about emphasis mark skipping
14:55:35 [gb]
Created -> action #49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49
14:57:03 [xfq]
r12a: the AOB part of that minutes is quite an important thing
14:57:20 [xfq]
... the text autospace was at the top of the Chinese list, which sounds good to me
14:57:33 [xfq]
... the other thing for me is vertical forms
14:58:54 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 11
14:58:54 [Zakim]
agendum 11 -- Internationalization Review for VCDM 2.0 -- taken up [from addison]
15:00:10 [xfq]
addison: they invited us to a special call next Tuesday
15:00:21 [xfq]
... I will go to that call
15:00:28 [xfq]
... you're all invited to that call
15:00:48 [xfq]
... my intention is to show them the web app manifest example
15:01:21 [xfq]
... regardless of what you do at the end, should be able to point to a natural language string and find out what the lang/dir of that is
15:01:36 [xfq]
... either because there's a document level default
15:01:46 [xfq]
... or because there's an override on the value
15:02:10 [xfq]
... I don't actually care how you do that, so long as it is possible
15:02:30 [xfq]
... they are a JSON-LD based spec
15:02:39 [xfq]
... but they don't want to force people to use JSON-LD processing
15:02:47 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 9
15:02:47 [xfq]
... like @context
15:02:48 [Zakim]
agendum 9 -- Definition of 'string' revisited -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:03:05 [addison]
https://deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string
15:03:20 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/117
15:04:37 [xfq]
addison: I have not made the changes to the glossary pending us finishing this work
15:04:42 [xfq]
... there's a recommendation about DOMString and a recommendation about USVString
15:04:49 [xfq]
... I'm open to suggestions
15:05:00 [addison]
agenda?
15:05:02 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
15:05:10 [xfq]
... I would like to finish this off and merge it, maybe we'll do that in next week's call
15:05:19 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
15:05:19 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- Adapt#240 and Unicode SAH -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:24 [xfq]
... the last thing that I'll take up is adapt#240
15:05:24 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
15:06:28 [xfq]
addison: Debbie Anderson and SAH haven't chimed in on the thread to say what Unicode thinks
15:08:01 [xfq]
r12a: I think that what they're looking for actually is not symbols
15:08:13 [xfq]
... but Unicode code points that represent concept
15:08:27 [xfq]
... and some of those concepts are all associated with Bliss symbols
15:08:32 [xfq]
... and some of them are not
15:09:03 [xfq]
... we have this potentially unbounded list of concepts
15:09:16 [xfq]
... could be represented with very different symbols
15:09:36 [xfq]
... and different repertoieres are going to have different sets of concept bindings
15:09:50 [xfq]
... that sounds kind of scary to me
15:10:03 [xfq]
... making a hieroglyphic system
15:10:32 [xfq]
... hieroglyphic is very similar to Chinese characters in many ways
15:11:46 [xfq]
... if they're defining concepts, they're going to have a whole bunch of code points that don't really have a representative glyph
15:12:23 [xfq]
... it's like defining an ontology
15:13:34 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 10
15:13:34 [Zakim]
agendum 10 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:14:26 [xfq]
xfq: vacation from Sep 29 to Oct 6
15:14:38 [xfq]
r12a: vacation tomorrow
15:16:08 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:16:16 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
15:16:16 [Zakim]
Present: Addison, Atsushi, Richard, David, xfq, JcK
15:16:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jck, xfq, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, atsushi, r12a, fantasai, sangwhan, hadleybeeman, bigbluehat, astearns, Rachael, koji, Mek, cwilso, florian, Github, clafase,
15:16:18 [Zakim]
... gonzu_15, imlostlmao, MojGraph, BoKilgore, alastairc, eemeli, csarven, gb, agendabot, plh, Bert, hsivonen
15:17:04 [addison]
zakim, bye
15:17:04 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, Richard, David, xfq, JcK
15:17:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n