13:44:59 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:45:04 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-irc 13:45:04 Zakim has joined #i18n 13:45:22 Meeting: Internationalization (I18N) Working Group Teleconference 13:45:22 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:45:28 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c5b143d1-0a5b-4adb-8d60-0f5f9bfe5a41/20230928T150000/ 13:45:28 clear agenda 13:45:29 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:45:29 agenda+ Action Items 13:45:30 agenda+ Info Share 13:45:32 agenda+ RADAR Review 13:45:34 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:45:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:45:38 agenda+ I18N ⇔ CSS 13:45:42 agenda+ WCAG (just in case we need it) 13:45:43 agenda+ Adapt#240 and Unicode SAH 13:45:43 https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker] 13:45:45 agenda+ Definition of 'string' revisited 13:45:46 agenda+ AOB? 13:46:46 agenda+ Internationalization Review for VCDM 2.0 13:48:37 agenda+ "needs-review" reviews 13:55:17 present+ Addison 13:55:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:58:30 present+ Atsushi 14:01:02 present+ Richard 14:02:06 na has joined #i18n 14:03:02 xfq_ has joined #i18n 14:03:13 xfq has joined #i18n 14:03:40 David has joined #I18n 14:14:00 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:14:00 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:14:04 agenda? 14:14:13 https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker] 14:14:30 scribe: xfq 14:14:35 zakim, take up agnedum 2 14:14:35 I don't understand 'take up agnedum 2', addison 14:14:46 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #47, #46, #45, #44, #43, #42, #41, #39, #35, #33, #32, #18, #16, #13, #12, #11, #10, #9, #8, #7, #5, #4 14:14:51 #47 14:14:51 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04 14:15:03 #46 14:15:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46 -> Action 46 read the string-meta explainer and consider the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28 14:15:33 #45 14:15:34 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/45 -> Action 45 connect unicode sah to the adapt 240 thread (on aphillips) due 2023-09-28 14:15:45 rrsagent, make log public 14:15:48 rrsagent, make minutes 14:15:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:15:55 close #45 14:15:55 Closed -> action #45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/45 14:15:55 #44 14:15:55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/44 -> Action 44 follow up on the bidi thread of rdf-star (on r12a) due 2023-09-19 14:16:05 #43 14:16:05 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18 14:16:14 #42 14:16:14 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42 -> Action 42 work on tc39 proposal (meet with addison and eemeli to start) (on xfq) due 2023-09-18 14:16:43 #41 14:16:44 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/41 -> Action 41 propose new specdev text on strings for xml (on aphillips) due 2023-09-07 14:17:02 #39 14:17:02 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39 -> Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31 14:17:20 #35 14:17:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30 14:17:31 #33 14:17:32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:18:03 \o/ 14:18:14 \o/+ 14:18:22 addison: I've now reviewed all of the needs resolution issues marked closed 14:18:38 ... and the only ones still open are the ones that I'm bringing back to the WG for review 14:18:53 ... I have an agenda item today for us to look at that 14:19:00 #32 14:19:00 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32 -> Action 32 Approve the character markup PR (on fantasai) due 2023-08-17 14:19:06 #18 14:19:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) 14:19:16 #16 14:19:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) 14:19:21 ... we still have a significant number of tracker marked close issues 14:19:29 #13 14:19:29 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/13 -> Action 13 Make sure generics are comfortable to read in the content language (on frivoal) 14:19:31 ... and I'm working through those 14:21:02 addison: this one relates to the addition of additional generics at TPAC 14:21:04 ... we discussed with them that they're going to add additional generic mechanism 14:21:11 close #13 14:21:13 Closed -> action #13 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/13 14:21:17 #12 14:21:19 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) 14:21:35 #11 14:21:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) 14:21:54 #10 14:21:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai) 14:22:01 #9 14:22:01 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/9 -> Action 9 Follow up with ecma-402 on next steps and start tc39 discussion (on aphillips) 14:22:32 close #9 14:22:34 Closed -> action #9 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/9 14:22:39 #8 14:22:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips) 14:22:45 #7 14:22:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) 14:23:03 #5 14:23:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a) 14:23:17 #4 14:23:18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) 14:24:18 addison: my intention is to publish specdev out to /TR 14:24:31 ... so that it's somewhat in sync with tr-design 14:24:53 ... and then we can go back and get the image stuff in tr-design 14:25:17 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:25:17 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:25:32 rrsagent, make minutes 14:25:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:25:55 present+ David, xfq 14:26:20 addison: I worked with PLH to insert some additional guard steps into the process 14:26:42 ... our transitions will not proceed if we have a needs resolution issue open 14:26:55 s/if we have a needs resolution issue open/if we have a needs resolution issue open against a spec 14:27:19 ... I think that's a good thing 14:27:48 ... I'm going to be working with PLH and some of the AC reps to push on companies that haven't contributed to this WG 14:28:13 ... try to generate some more participation 14:28:38 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:28:38 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:28:40 ... if you could think of people who ought to be participating and who work for a member company, let me know 14:29:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 14:29:32 addison: we have no new incoming requests 14:30:26 xfq: no issues for DAPT 14:31:19 addison: Securing Verifiable Credentials using JOSE and COSE 14:31:28 ... they have an i18n consideration section 14:31:37 ... I did look at it and filed an issue about that 14:31:53 ... mainly because I think they should remove their i18n consideration section 14:31:59 ... it doesn't say anything useful 14:32:36 Jck has joined #i18n 14:32:47 r12a: include a note so the implementers don't ignore the i18n considerations 14:32:55 ... which sounded to me quite useful 14:32:56 present+ JcK 14:34:12 agenda? 14:34:15 https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker] 14:34:28 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:34:29 agendum 6 -- I18N ⇔ CSS -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:34:40 https://www.w3.org/2023/09/27-i18n-minutes.html 14:34:49 fuqiao: discussed a few things 14:34:55 ... generic font family 14:35:16 ... florian says the wg wasn't sure about adding new generics, but no longer the case 14:35:26 ... if useful we can add them 14:35:41 ... he thinks we should start making a list of font faces, what their license is 14:35:53 ... which generic they belong to 14:36:03 ... has some questions about richard's article 14:36:35 addison: who is "we"? I18N? 14:36:40 fuqiao: i18n + css 14:36:57 ... wonders if the article is the list of the most important ones 14:37:31 richard: the article just picks several styles to make clear what we're talking about 14:37:32 scribe+ addison 14:37:43 ... that we need to support styles, not meant to be exhaustive 14:37:52 https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/typography/fontstyles.en.html 14:37:53 ... if you read my orthography notes 14:38:09 ... came across one the other day, sure there are plenty more 14:38:52 addison: I think some of the lreq group might want to think about it 14:40:05 Jck: Arabic is an example you probably do not want to use 14:40:21 addison: the Arabic script has a variety of font styles 14:40:28 ... r12a's article has a number of those 14:40:43 ... how one would approach, I'm not 100% sure 14:41:04 ... but that seems like an area where we would want the community to work through it 14:41:14 https://r12a.github.io/scripts/switch.html?section=writing_styles 14:41:24 ^ just lists a few 14:43:17 addison: here's a list of fonts, here's what license they have, etc. 14:43:32 r12a: I was worried a bit when we're trying to list all the fonts 14:43:55 ... I think what is useful is to list the system fonts, pre-installed system fonts, for a particular orthography 14:44:25 ... for some languages where there is no installed font it gets a little more complicated 14:44:47 addison: I would expect if there's a system installed font on the major platforms for a generic family 14:45:08 r12a: Apple gives you access to most of the Noto fonts 14:45:14 ... but I don't think Windows does that 14:45:50 addison: if we start with a well described space like Chinese 14:45:59 ... that can serve as a model for other languages 14:46:28 r12a: I think what is also gonna be necessary though is a clear description of why people use this particular font style 14:46:49 https://www.w3.org/TR/clreq/#four_commonly_used_typefaces_for_chinese_composition 14:47:37 action: xfq to work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal 14:47:44 Created -> action #48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/48 14:48:47 atsushi: we cannot divide fonts into categories clearly, like some fonts are for accessibility 14:50:23 r12a: bear in mind there are minority languages that have distinct styling 14:50:32 ... two very different ways of being written 14:50:39 agenda? 14:50:43 https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker] 14:51:18 q+ 14:51:27 fuqiao: about sideways-rl etc., florian says no news, curious if a language needs this 14:51:38 ack r12a 14:51:44 r12a: English 14:52:30 ... we have people like Jen from Apple who put tutorials together telling people that if they want to put their English text running bottom to top or top to bottom 14:53:17 addison: it's no one's primary writing mode that I'm aware of 14:53:25 ... but it's a secondary mode that people need 14:55:34 action: addison to contact unicode about emphasis mark skipping 14:55:35 Created -> action #49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49 14:57:03 r12a: the AOB part of that minutes is quite an important thing 14:57:20 ... the text autospace was at the top of the Chinese list, which sounds good to me 14:57:33 ... the other thing for me is vertical forms 14:58:54 zakim, take up agendum 11 14:58:54 agendum 11 -- Internationalization Review for VCDM 2.0 -- taken up [from addison] 15:00:10 addison: they invited us to a special call next Tuesday 15:00:21 ... I will go to that call 15:00:28 ... you're all invited to that call 15:00:48 ... my intention is to show them the web app manifest example 15:01:21 ... regardless of what you do at the end, should be able to point to a natural language string and find out what the lang/dir of that is 15:01:36 ... either because there's a document level default 15:01:46 ... or because there's an override on the value 15:02:10 ... I don't actually care how you do that, so long as it is possible 15:02:30 ... they are a JSON-LD based spec 15:02:39 ... but they don't want to force people to use JSON-LD processing 15:02:47 zakim, take up agendum 9 15:02:47 ... like @context 15:02:48 agendum 9 -- Definition of 'string' revisited -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:03:05 https://deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string 15:03:20 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/117 15:04:37 addison: I have not made the changes to the glossary pending us finishing this work 15:04:42 ... there's a recommendation about DOMString and a recommendation about USVString 15:04:49 ... I'm open to suggestions 15:05:00 agenda? 15:05:02 https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker] 15:05:10 ... I would like to finish this off and merge it, maybe we'll do that in next week's call 15:05:19 zakim, take up agendum 8 15:05:19 agendum 8 -- Adapt#240 and Unicode SAH -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:05:24 ... the last thing that I'll take up is adapt#240 15:05:24 https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker] 15:06:28 addison: Debbie Anderson and SAH haven't chimed in on the thread to say what Unicode thinks 15:08:01 r12a: I think that what they're looking for actually is not symbols 15:08:13 ... but Unicode code points that represent concept 15:08:27 ... and some of those concepts are all associated with Bliss symbols 15:08:32 ... and some of them are not 15:09:03 ... we have this potentially unbounded list of concepts 15:09:16 ... could be represented with very different symbols 15:09:36 ... and different repertoieres are going to have different sets of concept bindings 15:09:50 ... that sounds kind of scary to me 15:10:03 ... making a hieroglyphic system 15:10:32 ... hieroglyphic is very similar to Chinese characters in many ways 15:11:46 ... if they're defining concepts, they're going to have a whole bunch of code points that don't really have a representative glyph 15:12:23 ... it's like defining an ontology 15:13:34 zakim, take up agendum 10 15:13:34 agendum 10 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:14:26 xfq: vacation from Sep 29 to Oct 6 15:14:38 r12a: vacation tomorrow 15:16:08 rrsagent, make minutes 15:16:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:16:16 zakim, who is here? 15:16:16 Present: Addison, Atsushi, Richard, David, xfq, JcK 15:16:18 On IRC I see Jck, xfq, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, atsushi, r12a, fantasai, sangwhan, hadleybeeman, bigbluehat, astearns, Rachael, koji, Mek, cwilso, florian, Github, clafase, 15:16:18 ... gonzu_15, imlostlmao, MojGraph, BoKilgore, alastairc, eemeli, csarven, gb, agendabot, plh, Bert, hsivonen 15:17:04 zakim, bye 15:17:04 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, Richard, David, xfq, JcK 15:17:04 Zakim has left #i18n