14:56:05 RRSAgent has joined #pronunciation 14:56:09 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/25-pronunciation-irc 14:56:09 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:56:10 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), PaulG 14:56:14 zakim, agenda? 14:56:14 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 14:56:15 1. Agenda Review, Membership & Announcements [from IrfanA] 14:56:15 2. AT letter [from IrfanA] 14:56:15 3. Action Items [from IrfanA] 14:56:16 4. Github Issues and examples [from IrfanA] 14:56:16 5. Other Business [from IrfanA] 14:56:45 Irfan has joined #pronunciation 14:57:25 zakim, start meeting 14:57:25 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:57:27 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Irfan 14:57:53 Meeting: Pronunciation Task Force Sep 25, 2023 14:58:04 agenda? 14:58:13 zakim, clear agenda 14:58:13 agenda cleared 14:58:27 Agenda+ Agenda Review, Membership & Announcements 14:58:32 Agenda+ TPAC 14:58:37 Agenda+ Action Items 14:58:42 Agenda+ Github Issues and examples 14:58:47 Agenda+ Other Business 14:58:54 zakim, who is here? 14:58:54 Present: IrfanA, matatk, areeve, Sarah_Wood, Sam, Alan_, IrfanA_, Alan, SarahWood, Dee, mhakkinen, PaulG, S_Wood 14:58:57 On IRC I see Irfan, RRSAgent, PaulG, S_Wood, Roy, Github, gonzu_15, imlostlmao, sdd, mdaliahmed5733, Mike5Matrix, gb, Zakim, jcraig 14:59:08 present + 14:59:11 present+ 14:59:18 present+ 14:59:36 matatk has joined #pronunciation 15:00:01 Alan has joined #pronunciation 15:02:09 present+ 15:02:20 present+ 15:02:43 Dee has joined #pronunciation 15:03:13 matatk did that work? 15:03:41 Our meeting link https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/005ce518-1caf-448a-8a5f-72a700bbcdd3/20230925T110000/ 15:03:49 present+ 15:05:15 Sam has joined #pronunciation 15:05:27 present+ 15:06:25 https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-apa-minutes.html#t23 15:06:58 Meeting notes: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2023#WHATWG and https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2023#CSS 15:07:42 Also: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2023#ARIA 15:08:10 matatk: we're basically in the same place we were... 15:08:44 ...we're at an impass with ARIA because the 'large platforms' aren't interested in implementing all of our requirements 15:09:32 ...Paul offered another approach to possibly help smooth the path forward with them but the more concrete stuff we got from other meetings included a lot of interest from WHATWG folks who had never heard of this work before 15:09:54 ...they also asked if we could use CSS but CSSWG responded with 'no, it's not appropriate' 15:10:19 zakim, next item 15:10:19 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review, Membership & Announcements -- taken up [from Irfan] 15:10:47 ...WHATWG asked about using Ruby but we think they misunderstood that we don't need visual rendering in all cases 15:11:25 ...Simon Peters suggested separate attributes because the single-attribute authoring wasn't seen as ideal 15:11:51 ...SSML most likely will not get into HTML as a first-class object (ala SVG) per WHATWG 15:12:11 ...so the multi-attribute mapped to a single "place" in the axTree is still a possibility 15:12:47 scribe+ 15:13:22 PaulG: The idea was to allow the AT to delegate pronunciation. 15:13:58 ... This could be done via the Web Speech API in the UA. 15:14:32 ... This gives them an opt-out. One thing that came up in our call last week was that some UAs need to be online to generate speech (even if they support SSML). 15:14:47 ... This doesn't work for our use cases, some of which need offline access. 15:14:51 rrsagent, make minutes 15:14:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/25-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk 15:15:46 scribe+ PaulG 15:15:47 rrsagent, make minutes 15:15:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/25-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk 15:15:54 zakim, next item 15:15:54 agendum 2 -- TPAC -- taken up [from Irfan] 15:16:16 s/aren't interested in implementing/do not see a path to implementing/ 15:16:17 rrsagent, make minutes 15:16:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/25-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk 15:17:32 Sarah: What was the feature that was casuing them the most problems? 15:17:39 PaulG: Pausing, breaks. 15:19:01 Irfan: Some platforms thought it would be difficult for them to implement (possibly at all), but others do use SSML in some places, and seemed like they may be able to implement some of it for pronunication, perhpas. 15:19:55 PaulG: Even with author-controlled pronunication [proposed above], AT users may not opt in becuase it won't match their chosen TTS preferences (e.g. speed). 15:20:29 ... Maybe puasing/breaks are causing them issues in relation to settings like this. 15:20:39 ... Would love to know what the implementation headaches they forsee are. 15:21:11 Irfan: Talkinkg of the business case, we _do_ have a clear business case for the critical use cases we identified. 15:21:32 ... Can we send a letter about those business cases? 15:21:58 ... We've tried to keep them updated about our progress, and have limited to 5 of our use cases. 15:22:22 PaulG: Maybe we need an example for pause; can we provide one? 15:23:06 Alan: I can provide some; we use breaks a lot. 15:23:21 PaulG: The use case we have doesn't perhaps seem clear. 15:24:54 Alan: One thing that comes to mind is if you have tables, TTS may flow these together. Naturally there should be breaks to make it clear there's a table. 15:25:01 ... I will provide examples next week. 15:25:35 PaulG: Maybe our demo is not so illustrative of the importance; we want to sell the importance of these features. 15:25:52 Irfan: I think it was wider than pause or break (at least for some big platforms). 15:26:18 ... I think it's a good idea to provide a clear use case for each feature. 15:26:38 PaulG: I'm not understanding what's different between the SSML that they already implement for the Web Speech API. 15:27:33 Irfan: I think we should provide some clear examples. We may have more success with other platform vendors. 15:27:51 ... Another Explainer perhaps? 15:28:06 Alan: I'd watch saying the word "pause" as that's a Web Speech standard word. 15:29:42 matatk: we have to present a compelling scenario to them, which we've done, but if we can update it fairly quickly and push it to them again maybe it will help 15:30:55 ...the opt-out idea is very good. Getting those examples and focusing on the SSML we need with WHATWG will be important 15:32:30 matatk has left #pronunciation 15:32:31 Irfan: I spoke to manish who hadn't received the AT vendor letter 15:32:38 matatk has joined #pronunciation 15:32:39 present+ 15:32:42 matatk has left #pronunciation 15:33:20 rrsagent, make minutes 15:33:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/25-pronunciation-minutes.html Irfan