16:01:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:01:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-irc
16:01:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:01:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
16:01:24 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG weekly meeting
16:01:28 <ora> present+
16:01:28 <gkellogg> present+
16:01:31 <pchampin> present+
16:01:34 <pchampin> chair: ora
16:01:35 <ora> chair+
16:01:36 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:01:51 <gtw> present+
16:01:56 <rubensworks> present+
16:02:20 <pchampin> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230921T120000/#agenda
16:02:21 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:02:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter)
16:02:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:21 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC Feedback
16:02:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
16:02:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
16:02:27 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
16:02:30 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:02:33 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:44 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:52 <pchampin> regrets+ ktk
16:02:59 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
16:03:06 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
16:03:14 <olaf> present+
16:03:17 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:03:25 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:04:03 <pchampin> regrets+ AZ
16:04:14 <AndyS> present+
16:04:15 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:04:23 <Dominik_T> present+
16:04:25 <pfps> present+
16:04:25 <Tpt> present+
16:04:28 <TallTed> present+
16:04:30 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
16:04:30 <Zakim> Present: rubensworks, ora, gkellogg, pchampin, gtw, olaf, AndyS, Dominik_T, pfps, Tpt, TallTed
16:04:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AndyS, niklasl, Dominik_T, olaf, TallTed, RRSAgent, Zakim, ora, rubensworks, Tpt, gkellogg, timbl, driib, Timothe, VladimirAlexiev, gtw, smoothsalt, csarven,
16:04:33 <Zakim> ... ktk, gb, agendabot, pchampin, rhiaro
16:04:37 <pfps> scribe pfps
16:04:50 <TallTed> s/Approval of 2023-09-31/Approval of 2023-08-31/
16:05:11 <pfps> zakim, next item
16:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:14 <TallTed> zakim, agenda?
16:05:14 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:15 <Zakim> 1. Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter) [from agendabot]
16:05:16 <Zakim> 2. Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:05:16 <Zakim> 3. TPAC Feedback [from agendabot]
16:05:16 <Zakim> 4. Review of open actions, available at [from 2 via agendabot]
16:05:17 <Zakim> 5. Review of pull requests, available at [from 3 via agendabot]
16:05:17 <Zakim> 6. Issue Triage, available at [from 4 via agendabot]
16:05:17 <Zakim> 7. Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting [from agendabot]
16:05:23 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
16:05:32 <gkellogg> zakim, close item 1
16:05:32 <Zakim> agendum 1, Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter), closed
16:05:34 <TallTed> s/scribe pfps/scribe: pfps/
16:05:34 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:05:34 <Zakim> 2. Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:05:38 <draggett> present+
16:05:44 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:05:58 <TallTed> Zakim, open agendum 2
16:05:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:02 <gkellogg> zakim, open item 2
16:06:03 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:57 <pfps> Previous weekly meeting was 31 August, not 31 September
16:07:07 <pfps> Minutes at https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:07:34 <pchampin> s/2023-09-31/2023-08-31
16:07:36 <ora> q?
16:07:45 <pfps> ora: any comments on minutes from 31 August
16:08:00 <ora> proposal: Approve 2023-08-31 minutes
16:08:04 <gkellogg> +1
16:08:05 <ora> +1
16:08:05 <pfps> <pfps> +1
16:08:06 <pchampin> +1
16:08:09 <niklasl> +1
16:08:12 <niklasl> present+
16:08:16 <Dominik_T> +1
16:08:20 <rubensworks> +1
16:08:24 <olaf> +1
16:08:31 <Tpt> +1
16:08:31 <gtw> +1
16:08:35 <TallTed> +1
16:08:41 <ora> resolved: Approve 2023-08-31 minutes
16:08:45 <Souri_> Souri_ has joined #rdf-star
16:09:05 <pfps> <pfps> TPAC minutes at https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:09:26 <Souri_> present+
16:09:42 <pfps> <pfps> There are several problems with the minutes - missing section headings
16:09:42 <pfps> <pfps>   - quoted triples vs (named) graphs
16:09:42 <pfps> <pfps>   - use cases
16:09:43 <pfps> <pfps>   - CSS
16:09:45 <pfps> 
16:09:55 <pfps> gkellog: there was discussion of JSON values
16:10:20 <pchampin> q+
16:10:25 <pfps> tallted: there are some @ bits that don't correctly link
16:10:32 <ora> ack pchampin
16:10:46 <pfps> pchampin: I'll fix the @ links
16:11:05 <pfps> pchampin: I'll add a line that there was discussion
16:11:08 <gb> Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe pchampin to clean TPAC minutes is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?
16:11:18 <pfps> q+
16:11:24 <pfps> q-
16:11:25 <ora> ack pfps
16:12:16 <pfps> action: pfps to email where section headings should go
16:12:24 <gb> Created -> action #92 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/92
16:12:44 <pchampin> action: pchampin to clean TPAC minutes: remove spurious at-user mentions, add mention of the value space discussion for rdf:json
16:12:46 <gb> Created -> action #93 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/93
16:13:11 <pfps> ora: defer approval of TPAC minutes to next week
16:13:33 <pfps> zakim, next item
16:13:33 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- TPAC Feedback -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:38 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:13:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:14:03 <pfps> ora: I would like feedback about how TPAC went
16:14:33 <niklasl> q+
16:14:37 <AndyS> q+
16:14:53 <TallTed> s|agendum 2 -- Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]||
16:14:57 <pfps> gkellog: the F2F was productive - we should consider having more
16:14:59 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:15:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:15:07 <ora> ack niklasl
16:15:28 <ora> ack AndyS
16:15:29 <pfps> niklasl: it was productive even though most people were on Zoom
16:16:15 <pfps> andys: I thought the meeting went well.  We could consider more special-purpose meetings.
16:16:18 <pchampin> q+
16:16:42 <TallTed> +1 periodic or regular topic-specific sessions are good; occasional 2 or 3 hour sessions, depending on the topic
16:16:44 <pfps> ora: we could have longer meetings (longer than one hour, not longer than the TPAC meeting)
16:16:56 <ora> ack pchampin
16:17:26 <niklasl> +1 for some longer meetings, and topic-specific meetings
16:17:53 <pfps> pchampin: we could alternative between regular (process) meetings and special-purpose meetings
16:18:13 <ora> q+
16:18:22 <ora> ack ora
16:19:18 <TallTed> q+
16:19:29 <AndyS> q+
16:19:33 <ora> ack TallTed
16:19:39 <pchampin> to be fair, we've been hearing that comment all along, from various people
16:19:44 <pfps> ora: it seemed to me that tbl thinks that RDF-star (and historically RDF itself) is going in the wrong direction (and this may be the genesis of N3)
16:20:18 <gkellogg> q+
16:20:40 <niklasl> q+
16:21:35 <ora> ack AndyS
16:21:35 <pfps> tallted: the comment that I heard from TBL is that there should be inclusion of graphs, not (just) triples
16:22:30 <pfps> andys: there was early work on N3 in the data access working group
16:23:01 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:23:15 <pfps> andys: doerthe had comments at the TPAC that quoted triples are different from quoted graphs (particularly with respect to transparency)
16:24:07 <pfps> gkellog: N3 had a version of quoted triples, but to support reasoning
16:24:27 <pfps> gkellog: the transparency issue has to do with blank node namespaces
16:24:37 <ora> ack niklasl
16:24:44 <pfps> andys: transparency covers more than blank nodes
16:25:24 <ora> q+
16:25:29 <pfps> niklasl: my understanding is that included graphs in N3 don't share blank nodes
16:26:12 <pfps> niklasl:  there are lots of differences between N3 and RDF, including variables
16:26:30 <ora> q-
16:26:52 <pfps> niklasl: there may be differences between even RDF 1.1 and N3
16:27:33 <pfps> niklasl: Pat Hayes's presentation on RDF services is relevant
16:27:43 <ora> s/services/surfaces
16:27:58 <ora> q?
16:29:28 <niklasl> https://www.slideshare.net/PatHayes/blogic-iswc-2009-invited-talk
16:29:29 <TallTed> https://w3c-cg.github.io/rdfsurfaces/ BLOGIC
16:29:38 <gkellogg> http://videolectures.net/iswc09_hayes_blogic/
16:30:50 <pchampin> q+
16:30:51 <pfps> tallted: there was some pushback against RDF surfaces because it was too complicated
16:30:59 <ora> ack pchampin
16:32:21 <niklasl> q+
16:32:22 <pfps> pchampin: some ideas from RDF surfaces may have made it into RDF 1.1
16:32:30 <ora> ack niklasl
16:32:56 <ora> q+
16:33:04 <pfps> niklasl: it would be nice to ask Pat about his thoughts
16:34:30 <ora> ack ora
16:34:45 <pfps> niklasl: there is information about the type/token distinction in the BLOGIC presentation
16:35:13 <AndyS> q+
16:35:21 <ora> ack AndyS
16:36:12 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:36:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:36:20 <pfps> andys: one of the reasons to keep the charter of this WG small was that something big would not get through the approval process - has there been a change?
16:37:04 <gkellogg> q+
16:37:09 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:37:43 <ora> q+
16:38:05 <pfps> gkellogg: process aside, the WG should do something right, not something expedient
16:38:31 <ora> ack ora
16:38:43 <pfps> andys: syntax is important - complex syntax tricks have problems
16:39:08 <TallTed> note -- verifiable claims became verifiable credentials some time ago
16:40:00 <pfps> andys: cwm appears to use bnodes
16:41:01 <niklasl> q+
16:41:15 <pfps> ora: is the WG supposed to adhere closely to the CG result or should it do something else
16:41:30 <pfps> ora: my preference is to not go too far
16:42:09 <pfps> andys: there is a definite problem turning proposals into recommendations
16:42:53 <pfps> ora: changing a bit of recommendation often requires changing lots of the recommendation
16:43:08 <pfps> ora: this WG should get something done
16:43:18 <pfps> zakim, close item
16:43:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', pfps
16:43:33 <pfps> zakim, close agenda item
16:43:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agenda item', pfps
16:44:34 <pfps> topic: blank graphs
16:45:24 <pfps> niklasl: I wrote a proposal to add included graphs
16:45:50 <pfps> niklasl: recursive quoted triples open up a lot of issues
16:46:58 <pfps> The proposal is at https://gist.github.com/niklasl/4f52c32ef2d888c172c8584e36c24610
16:47:28 <pfps> niklasl: I am concerned that a recursive syntax construct does not fit well into RDF
16:48:06 <pfps> niklasl: Originally quoted triples were to be a better way of doing reification
16:49:18 <pfps> niklasl: I have issues with the CG version of quoted triples.
16:50:23 <pfps> niklasl: I tried to give a treatment of blank graphs that supports the current use cases.
16:51:17 <pfps> niklasl: Blank graphs can be used for the same purposes as quoted triples, and can be just syntactic sugar.
16:52:53 <pfps> niklasl: Blank graphs can be used in other areas.
16:53:52 <pfps> niklasl: JSON-LD has blank graphs and is widely used.
16:54:12 <ora> q?
16:54:16 <ora> ack niklasl
16:55:32 <pfps> niklasl: Can we build on these existing notions.
16:56:53 <pfps> niklasl: If there is the expectation that quoted triples are occurences, then making them types is problematic.
16:58:11 <pfps> can someone scribe - I have to go in 2 minutes
16:58:56 <AndyS> q+
16:59:18 <pfps> pchampin: have to be careful not to take over named graphs, but maybe blank graphs suffice
16:59:39 <pchampin> seems like we already adopted the "1 week specific topic / 1 week process" mode :-)
16:59:41 <pfps> ora: time's up
17:00:25 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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17:03:50 <niklasl> _:ex2 rdf:type { <p1> :birthDate "1902" }
17:04:37 <niklasl> _:ex2 a { <p1> :birthDate "1902" } .
17:04:48 <pchampin> s|Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe pchampin to clean TPAC minutes is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?|
17:04:52 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:08:17 <niklasl> >>> set() == set()
17:08:21 <niklasl> True
17:08:25 <niklasl>  >>> set() is set()
17:08:25 <niklasl>  False
17:14:47 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:14:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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