IRC log of rdf-star on 2023-09-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:01:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:01:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-irc
16:01:11 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:01:12 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
16:01:24 [pchampin]
meeting: RDF-star WG weekly meeting
16:01:28 [ora]
present+
16:01:28 [gkellogg]
present+
16:01:31 [pchampin]
present+
16:01:34 [pchampin]
chair: ora
16:01:35 [ora]
chair+
16:01:36 [TallTed]
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16:01:51 [gtw]
present+
16:01:56 [rubensworks]
present+
16:02:20 [pchampin]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230921T120000/#agenda
16:02:21 [agendabot]
clear agenda
16:02:21 [agendabot]
agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter)
16:02:21 [agendabot]
agenda+ Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:21 [agendabot]
agenda+ TPAC Feedback
16:02:22 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
16:02:25 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
16:02:27 [agendabot]
agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
16:02:30 [agendabot]
agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:02:33 [pchampin]
previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:44 [pchampin]
next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:52 [pchampin]
regrets+ ktk
16:02:59 [olaf]
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16:03:06 [Dominik_T]
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16:03:14 [olaf]
present+
16:03:17 [niklasl]
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16:03:25 [AndyS]
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16:04:03 [pchampin]
regrets+ AZ
16:04:14 [AndyS]
present+
16:04:15 [pfps]
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16:04:23 [Dominik_T]
present+
16:04:25 [pfps]
present+
16:04:25 [Tpt]
present+
16:04:28 [TallTed]
present+
16:04:30 [pfps]
zakim, who is here?
16:04:30 [Zakim]
Present: rubensworks, ora, gkellogg, pchampin, gtw, olaf, AndyS, Dominik_T, pfps, Tpt, TallTed
16:04:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pfps, AndyS, niklasl, Dominik_T, olaf, TallTed, RRSAgent, Zakim, ora, rubensworks, Tpt, gkellogg, timbl, driib, Timothe, VladimirAlexiev, gtw, smoothsalt, csarven,
16:04:33 [Zakim]
... ktk, gb, agendabot, pchampin, rhiaro
16:04:37 [pfps]
scribe pfps
16:04:50 [TallTed]
s/Approval of 2023-09-31/Approval of 2023-08-31/
16:05:11 [pfps]
zakim, next item
16:05:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:14 [TallTed]
zakim, agenda?
16:05:14 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:15 [Zakim]
1. Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter) [from agendabot]
16:05:16 [Zakim]
2. Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:05:16 [Zakim]
3. TPAC Feedback [from agendabot]
16:05:16 [Zakim]
4. Review of open actions, available at [from 2 via agendabot]
16:05:17 [Zakim]
5. Review of pull requests, available at [from 3 via agendabot]
16:05:17 [Zakim]
6. Issue Triage, available at [from 4 via agendabot]
16:05:17 [Zakim]
7. Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting [from agendabot]
16:05:23 [draggett]
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16:05:32 [gkellogg]
zakim, close item 1
16:05:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter), closed
16:05:34 [TallTed]
s/scribe pfps/scribe: pfps/
16:05:34 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:05:34 [Zakim]
2. Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:05:38 [draggett]
present+
16:05:44 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:05:58 [TallTed]
Zakim, open agendum 2
16:05:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:02 [gkellogg]
zakim, open item 2
16:06:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:57 [pfps]
Previous weekly meeting was 31 August, not 31 September
16:07:07 [pfps]
Minutes at https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:07:34 [pchampin]
s/2023-09-31/2023-08-31
16:07:36 [ora]
q?
16:07:45 [pfps]
ora: any comments on minutes from 31 August
16:08:00 [ora]
proposal: Approve 2023-08-31 minutes
16:08:04 [gkellogg]
+1
16:08:05 [ora]
+1
16:08:05 [pfps]
+1
16:08:06 [pchampin]
+1
16:08:09 [niklasl]
+1
16:08:12 [niklasl]
present+
16:08:16 [Dominik_T]
+1
16:08:20 [rubensworks]
+1
16:08:24 [olaf]
+1
16:08:31 [Tpt]
+1
16:08:31 [gtw]
+1
16:08:35 [TallTed]
+1
16:08:41 [ora]
resolved: Approve 2023-08-31 minutes
16:08:45 [Souri_]
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16:09:05 [pfps]
TPAC minutes at https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:09:26 [Souri_]
present+
16:09:42 [pfps]
There are several problems with the minutes - missing section headings
16:09:42 [pfps]
- quoted triples vs (named) graphs
16:09:42 [pfps]
- use cases
16:09:43 [pfps]
- CSS
16:09:45 [pfps]
16:09:55 [pfps]
gkellog: there was discussion of JSON values
16:10:20 [pchampin]
q+
16:10:25 [pfps]
tallted: there are some @ bits that don't correctly link
16:10:32 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:10:46 [pfps]
pchampin: I'll fix the @ links
16:11:05 [pfps]
pchampin: I'll add a line that there was discussion
16:11:07 [pchampin]
action pchampin to clean TPAC minutes: remove spurious at-user mentions, add mention of the value space discussion for rdf:json
16:11:08 [gb]
Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe pchampin to clean TPAC minutes is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?
16:11:18 [pfps]
q+
16:11:24 [pfps]
q-
16:11:25 [ora]
ack pfps
16:12:08 [pchampin]
action pchampin to clean TPAC minutes
16:12:16 [pfps]
action: pfps to email where section headings should go
16:12:24 [gb]
Created -> action #92 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/92
16:12:26 [TallTed]
s/action pchampin/action: pchampin/
16:12:44 [pchampin]
action: pchampin to clean TPAC minutes: remove spurious at-user mentions, add mention of the value space discussion for rdf:json
16:12:46 [gb]
Created -> action #93 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/93
16:13:11 [pfps]
ora: defer approval of TPAC minutes to next week
16:13:33 [pfps]
zakim, next item
16:13:33 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- TPAC Feedback -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:38 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:13:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:14:03 [pfps]
ora: I would like feedback about how TPAC went
16:14:33 [niklasl]
q+
16:14:37 [AndyS]
q+
16:14:53 [TallTed]
s|agendum 2 -- Approval of 2023-09-31 and 2023-09-12 minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]||
16:14:57 [pfps]
gkellog: the F2F was productive - we should consider having more
16:14:59 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:15:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:15:07 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:15:28 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:15:29 [pfps]
niklasl: it was productive even though most people were on Zoom
16:16:15 [pfps]
andys: I thought the meeting went well. We could consider more special-purpose meetings.
16:16:18 [pchampin]
q+
16:16:42 [TallTed]
+1 periodic or regular topic-specific sessions are good; occasional 2 or 3 hour sessions, depending on the topic
16:16:44 [pfps]
ora: we could have longer meetings (longer than one hour, not longer than the TPAC meeting)
16:16:56 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:17:26 [niklasl]
+1 for some longer meetings, and topic-specific meetings
16:17:53 [pfps]
pchampin: we could alternative between regular (process) meetings and special-purpose meetings
16:18:13 [ora]
q+
16:18:22 [ora]
ack ora
16:19:18 [TallTed]
q+
16:19:29 [AndyS]
q+
16:19:33 [ora]
ack TallTed
16:19:39 [pchampin]
to be fair, we've been hearing that comment all along, from various people
16:19:44 [pfps]
ora: it seemed to me that tbl thinks that RDF-star (and historically RDF itself) is going in the wrong direction (and this may be the genesis of N3)
16:20:18 [gkellogg]
q+
16:20:40 [niklasl]
q+
16:21:35 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:21:35 [pfps]
tallted: the comment that I heard from TBL is that there should be inclusion of graphs, not (just) triples
16:22:30 [pfps]
andys: there was early work on N3 in the data access working group
16:23:01 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:23:15 [pfps]
andys: doerthe had comments at the TPAC that quoted triples are different from quoted graphs (particularly with respect to transparency)
16:24:07 [pfps]
gkellog: N3 had a version of quoted triples, but to support reasoning
16:24:27 [pfps]
gkellog: the transparency issue has to do with blank node namespaces
16:24:37 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:24:44 [pfps]
andys: transparency covers more than blank nodes
16:25:24 [ora]
q+
16:25:29 [pfps]
niklasl: my understanding is that included graphs in N3 don't share blank nodes
16:26:12 [pfps]
niklasl: there are lots of differences between N3 and RDF, including variables
16:26:30 [ora]
q-
16:26:52 [pfps]
niklasl: there may be differences between even RDF 1.1 and N3
16:27:33 [pfps]
niklasl: Pat Hayes's presentation on RDF services is relevant
16:27:43 [ora]
s/services/surfaces
16:27:58 [ora]
q?
16:29:28 [niklasl]
https://www.slideshare.net/PatHayes/blogic-iswc-2009-invited-talk
16:29:29 [TallTed]
https://w3c-cg.github.io/rdfsurfaces/ BLOGIC
16:29:38 [gkellogg]
http://videolectures.net/iswc09_hayes_blogic/
16:30:50 [pchampin]
q+
16:30:51 [pfps]
tallted: there was some pushback against RDF surfaces because it was too complicated
16:30:59 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:32:21 [niklasl]
q+
16:32:22 [pfps]
pchampin: some ideas from RDF surfaces may have made it into RDF 1.1
16:32:30 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:32:56 [ora]
q+
16:33:04 [pfps]
niklasl: it would be nice to ask Pat about his thoughts
16:34:30 [ora]
ack ora
16:34:45 [pfps]
niklasl: there is information about the type/token distinction in the BLOGIC presentation
16:35:13 [AndyS]
q+
16:35:21 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:36:12 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:36:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:36:20 [pfps]
andys: one of the reasons to keep the charter of this WG small was that something big would not get through the approval process - has there been a change?
16:37:04 [gkellogg]
q+
16:37:09 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:37:43 [ora]
q+
16:38:05 [pfps]
gkellogg: process aside, the WG should do something right, not something expedient
16:38:31 [ora]
ack ora
16:38:43 [pfps]
andys: syntax is important - complex syntax tricks have problems
16:39:08 [TallTed]
note -- verifiable claims became verifiable credentials some time ago
16:40:00 [pfps]
andys: cwm appears to use bnodes
16:41:01 [niklasl]
q+
16:41:15 [pfps]
ora: is the WG supposed to adhere closely to the CG result or should it do something else
16:41:30 [pfps]
ora: my preference is to not go too far
16:42:09 [pfps]
andys: there is a definite problem turning proposals into recommendations
16:42:53 [pfps]
ora: changing a bit of recommendation often requires changing lots of the recommendation
16:43:08 [pfps]
ora: this WG should get something done
16:43:18 [pfps]
zakim, close item
16:43:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', pfps
16:43:33 [pfps]
zakim, close agenda item
16:43:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close agenda item', pfps
16:44:34 [pfps]
topic: blank graphs
16:45:24 [pfps]
niklasl: I wrote a proposal to add included graphs
16:45:50 [pfps]
niklasl: recursive quoted triples open up a lot of issues
16:46:58 [pfps]
The proposal is at https://gist.github.com/niklasl/4f52c32ef2d888c172c8584e36c24610
16:47:28 [pfps]
niklasl: I am concerned that a recursive syntax construct does not fit well into RDF
16:48:06 [pfps]
niklasl: Originally quoted triples were to be a better way of doing reification
16:49:18 [pfps]
niklasl: I have issues with the CG version of quoted triples.
16:50:23 [pfps]
niklasl: I tried to give a treatment of blank graphs that supports the current use cases.
16:51:17 [pfps]
niklasl: Blank graphs can be used for the same purposes as quoted triples, and can be just syntactic sugar.
16:52:53 [pfps]
niklasl: Blank graphs can be used in other areas.
16:53:52 [pfps]
niklasl: JSON-LD has blank graphs and is widely used.
16:54:12 [ora]
q?
16:54:16 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:55:32 [pfps]
niklasl: Can we build on these existing notions.
16:56:53 [pfps]
niklasl: If there is the expectation that quoted triples are occurences, then making them types is problematic.
16:58:11 [pfps]
can someone scribe - I have to go in 2 minutes
16:58:56 [AndyS]
q+
16:59:18 [pfps]
pchampin: have to be careful not to take over named graphs, but maybe blank graphs suffice
16:59:39 [pchampin]
seems like we already adopted the "1 week specific topic / 1 week process" mode :-)
16:59:41 [pfps]
ora: time's up
17:00:25 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:00:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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17:03:50 [niklasl]
_:ex2 rdf:type { <p1> :birthDate "1902" }
17:04:24 [pchampin]
s|action pchampin to clean TPAC minutes: remove spurious at-user mentions, add mention of the value space discussion for rdf:json|
17:04:32 [pchampin]
s|action pchampin to clean TPAC|
17:04:37 [niklasl]
_:ex2 a { <p1> :birthDate "1902" } .
17:04:48 [pchampin]
s|Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe pchampin to clean TPAC minutes is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?|
17:04:52 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:04:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:08:17 [niklasl]
>>> set() == set()
17:08:21 [niklasl]
True
17:08:25 [niklasl]
>>> set() is set()
17:08:25 [niklasl]
False
17:14:25 [pchampin]
saction pchampin to clean TPAC minutes|
17:14:36 [pchampin]
s/saction pchampin to clean TPAC minutes|/
17:14:42 [pchampin]
s|action pchampin to clean TPAC minutes|
17:14:47 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:14:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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