IRC log of wot-td on 2023-09-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:48 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wot-td

14:03:53 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-irc

14:03:56 [kaz]

meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF

14:04:51 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Luca_Babato, Michael_Koster

14:04:52 [kaz]

q+

14:06:14 [kaz]

ack k

14:07:54 [cris__]

cris__ has joined #wot-td

14:08:14 [kaz]

kaz: as suggested during the Scripting, Security and Discovery calls, would suggest we as the TD-TF should quickly skim the minutes and summarize important points from TPAC meetings and generate an action item for the TD-TF and the whole WG./

14:08:21 [kaz]

i/as suggested/topic: Agenda/

14:08:39 [kaz]

present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi

14:09:12 [kaz]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_20.2C_2023

14:09:18 [kaz]

chair: Ege/Koster

14:09:23 [kaz]

ek: ok

14:09:30 [kaz]

... (updates the agenda)

14:09:43 [kaz]

i|as suggested|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_20.2C_2023 agenda for today|

14:10:11 [kaz]

... would add slides as well

14:10:16 [sebastian]

sebastian has joined #wot-td

14:10:22 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 1

14:10:22 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/15-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 2

14:10:22 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html JSON-LD, WoT, RCH joint meeting

14:10:22 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html#t11 APA WG

14:10:23 [kaz]

-> https://hackmd.io/@U6kq3KikTwSQiGSvlEw7vA/SyB0DJ3Cn Web Agent CG

14:10:33 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

14:10:39 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:10:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:11:18 [Ege]

q?

14:12:44 [kaz]

i/as suggested/scribenick: kaz/

14:13:02 [cris__]

scribe+

14:13:03 [kaz]

scribenick: cris__

14:13:40 [cris__]

topic: minutes

14:14:08 [cris__]

ege: it is annoying to review minutes without screen sharing

14:14:21 [cris__]

... it might be easier to have them in other formats

14:14:29 [kaz]

q+

14:15:06 [cris__]

kaz: we can have several options but the easiest one is to review the minutes before the call and mention the errors during the calls

14:15:17 [cris__]

ege: right but for typos it is hard

14:15:46 [cris__]

kaz: if we can do a task in just two minutes we can do synchronously

14:15:47 [Ege]

https://www.w3.org/2023/09/06-wot-td-minutes.html

14:15:55 [cris__]

ege: any problems with the minutes?

14:16:04 [cris__]

... I wasn't in the call

14:16:08 [cris__]

... ok minutes approved

14:16:26 [cris__]

topic: next meetings

14:16:35 [cris__]

ege: I don't see any problems with the TD call

14:16:46 [cris__]

... do you see any possible cancellations in the short future?

14:16:53 [cris__]

... ok

14:17:02 [kaz]

s|https://www.w3.org/2023/09/06-wot-td-minutes.html||

14:17:04 [cris__]

... no cancelations

14:17:10 [kaz]

i|it is an|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/06-wot-td-minutes.html Sep-6|

14:17:14 [cris__]

topic: TPAC

14:18:12 [kaz]

i|topic: next meetings|(all the speakers names have been spelled out)|

14:18:13 [cris__]

ege: basically in TPAC we had the TD section on Thursday

14:18:19 [cris__]

... sebastian presented an overview

14:18:30 [cris__]

... then I talked about the registry approach

14:18:30 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 1

14:18:31 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/15-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 2

14:18:31 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html JSON-LD, WoT, RCH joint meeting

14:18:31 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html#t11 APA WG

14:18:31 [kaz]

-> https://hackmd.io/@U6kq3KikTwSQiGSvlEw7vA/SyB0DJ3Cn Web Agent CG

14:18:36 [cris__]

s/sebastian/Sebastian/

14:18:54 [cris__]

ege: we will do a refactoring where the Binding will be explained in the TD document

14:19:03 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

14:19:06 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:19:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:19:20 [cris__]

... then Sebastian introduced the different big items to deal with in the next charter

14:19:25 [cris__]

... basically a quick intro

14:19:29 [kaz]

i|basically|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf/2023_WoT_TPAC_Agenda#TPAC_Agenda TPAC agenda|

14:19:36 [cris__]

... then I presented the binding registry

14:20:29 [JKRhb]

JKRhb has joined #wot-td

14:20:32 [cris__]

... I presented the Registry mechanism from the W3C process doc

14:20:39 [cris__]

... gave some examples

14:21:02 [cris__]

... some use the word registry but they are not really following the exact W3C Process be careful

14:21:17 [cris__]

... I talk with the co-editors of the webcodes

14:21:20 [cris__]

... good feedbacks

14:21:36 [cris__]

... but we should be careful about how the table will evolve over time

14:21:47 [cris__]

... in particular how to regulate contributions to the table

14:21:57 [cris__]

... the registry is a new concept within the W3C

14:22:33 [cris__]

... we can define minimum berries for contributing the the registry

14:23:05 [cris__]

... other than that we talk about the users and contributors

14:23:41 [cris__]

... kaz also provided other examples

14:24:00 [cris__]

... DID is one (but it is not an official registry)

14:24:22 [kaz]

q+

14:25:13 [cris__]

kaz: note that the w3c process provide a procedure for registry track. Any group could use the procedure. However, w3c do not provide anything on how to manage the process

14:25:51 [cris__]

... I am not sure which can be considered "true" registries because each group can interpret the process according to their view

14:26:01 [kaz]

ack k

14:26:08 [cris__]

... we can look into the best practices

14:26:18 [cris__]

ege: I agree we have to look at our requirements and use cases

14:26:35 [cris__]

kaz: we should mention this complication in our note

14:26:43 [cris__]

ege: yes

14:27:29 [cris__]

kaz: note meaning new markdown documents to be generated

14:27:34 [cris__]

... as feedback from TPAC

14:28:13 [kaz]

s/generated/generated as McCool mentioned during the main call./

14:29:39 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:29:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:30:30 [kaz]

present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima, Jan_Romann

14:31:37 [kaz]

s/as feedback from TPAC/as mentioned during TPAC, there are several WGs within W3C as well, and they also should be referred to./

14:31:40 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:31:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:31:59 [cris__]

ege: Michael suggested to use a append-only approach for the registry

14:32:09 [cris__]

... we should see how it will work

14:32:38 [cris__]

... and also binding proposal should be bundled with validation

14:32:49 [cris__]

... any comments missing?

14:35:48 [cris__]

ege: do we have an action item?

14:36:09 [cris__]

cris: it could be good to have a document where we describe the policies for accepting new bindings

14:36:19 [cris__]

ege: where do we start?

14:36:21 [cris__]

q+

14:37:55 [cris__]

cris: should we work on wot repository?

14:38:08 [cris__]

ege: yeah but we need to take care

14:38:21 [cris__]

... of other reports

14:38:37 [cris__]

mk: there will be a policy element

14:39:11 [cris__]

... but there are also related reports that we need to tackle. Mostly intermediate documents.

14:39:24 [cris__]

ege: ok for using wot repository

14:39:39 [cris__]

... it can be used by other task forces

14:39:42 [mjk]

q?

14:39:56 [kaz]

q+

14:40:00 [Ege]

ack c

14:40:13 [cris__]

cris: ok for the directory

14:40:22 [cris__]

kaz: we as group we need to clarify the policy

14:41:24 [cris__]

... regarding the append-only approach there is some possibility of somebody requesting removing dengerous contributions (from the legal point of view)

14:41:29 [cris__]

... we need to think about it

14:42:22 [cris__]

ege: I understand

14:42:40 [cris__]

... in any case we should add some workarounds to invalidate something

14:42:50 [cris__]

kaz: that's why I asking to review other registries

14:43:32 [cris__]

cris: +1

14:43:38 [luca_barbato]

q+

14:43:52 [kaz]

ack k

14:43:56 [cris__]

mk: the whole policy should guartee a level of append-only but we should be flexible

14:44:07 [cris__]

kaz: we should be fair to everyone too.

14:44:25 [cris__]

luca: keep in mind that the registry contains just a description + link

14:44:33 [cris__]

ege: the problem is the content of the linked document

14:44:45 [cris__]

luca: is it something that you can control?

14:44:57 [cris__]

... if it is not permanent we should reject

14:45:22 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:45:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:45:30 [cris__]

... we don't have many ways to make something that is not legal

14:45:31 [cris__]

... it is not a big concern

14:45:51 [cris__]

... the good point to have append-only is to not breaking backward compatibility

14:46:34 [cris__]

... we are not going to host any content

14:47:12 [cris__]

ege: the problem is when for example somebody says falsities

14:47:26 [cris__]

... we should invalidate it

14:48:29 [kaz]

q+

14:48:32 [kaz]

ack l

14:49:04 [cris__]

cris: we might need to host documents and poeple might ask to remove dangerous content

14:49:16 [cris__]

luca: that's why we should never host those documents ourselve

14:49:49 [cris__]

... the registry is just about there is something that is accepted by enough people

14:50:33 [cris__]

ege: ok but the point is for example matter what happens if they want to remove it

14:50:48 [cris__]

luca: it's they fault

14:50:54 [cris__]

ege: ok but we need to explain it

14:50:57 [kaz]

s/they/their/

14:51:18 [cris__]

luca: if we want to operate such IANA we should reject stuff that does not abide to such rules

14:52:07 [cris__]

q+

14:52:29 [kaz]

s/IANA/a registry/

14:53:30 [cris__]

luca: if we store all the information

14:54:02 [cris__]

... of the protocol. We are open to get any kind of legal request

14:54:34 [cris__]

... if we cache the matter protocol for example and however published it was a mistake then it is a problem

14:54:50 [Ege]

q?

14:54:58 [cris__]

... we should store the smallest unit of information

14:56:14 [cris__]

kaz: we should discuss what we mean and what we want, that's ok (I suggested to look at other registries). For today, we should summarize the discussion for TPAC

14:56:27 [cris__]

... we can work on the detail later, as whole group.

14:56:41 [cris__]

ege: I'll create the markdown

14:56:51 [cris__]

ack c

14:57:21 [kaz]

i/I'll create the markdown/Right. On the other hand, would like to record what we've been discussing so far as a markdown./

14:57:22 [kaz]

ack k

14:58:06 [kaz]

kaz: that's fine but we should dive into the detail on possible registry policies today during this call because we were simply summarizing the TPAC discussion./

14:58:11 [kaz]

s|./|.|

14:58:31 [kaz]

s/fine/fine as an initial input for further discussion,/

14:59:03 [cris__]

ege: we should followup for the action items

14:59:18 [cris__]

... maybe split the work

14:59:27 [cris__]

... we talk about this later on

14:59:59 [cris__]

topic: Thing description

15:00:23 [cris__]

s/Thing description/Thing Description PRs/

15:00:40 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1858

15:00:47 [cris__]

subtopic: 1858

15:01:03 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1858||

15:01:13 [cris__]

ege: got the verbal approval from the director

15:01:18 [cris__]

... is it ok to merge it now?

15:01:42 [kaz]

i|got|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1858 PR 1858 Remove mention of atrisk section|

15:01:46 [cris__]

kaz: I had to comment on the PR before the call

15:03:48 [kaz]

(added a comment on the approval)

15:04:05 [cris__]

ege: ok merged

15:04:21 [cris__]

subtopic: 1843

15:04:23 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1843

15:04:41 [kaz]

s/https/-> https/

15:04:47 [cris__]

ege: ok it would be nice if you can comment kaz

15:04:54 [kaz]

s/1843/1843 PR 1843 - Fix well known operation types only/

15:05:37 [kaz]

(gave a comment on the approval)

15:06:07 [cris__]

ege: merged

15:06:21 [kaz]

scribenick: kaz

15:06:35 [kaz]

subtopic: 1844

15:06:55 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1844 PR 1844 - Update schema to not allow empty op array

15:07:24 [kaz]

kaz: so this is basically bug fix on JSON schema. Right?

15:07:31 [kaz]

ek: yes

15:08:21 [cris__]

q+

15:08:23 [kaz]

... it's about whether it's allowed to use an empty "op" array or not

15:08:29 [kaz]

ack c

15:08:39 [kaz]

ca: not sure if it's correctly recorded

15:08:46 [kaz]

... but it's what we should do in the future

15:09:00 [kaz]

... you can't have an empty array

15:09:09 [kaz]

... need to address for 2.0

15:09:10 [kaz]

q?

15:09:13 [kaz]

q+

15:09:33 [kaz]

lb: fine to merge it if it's consistent with the future version

15:10:01 [kaz]

ek: (shows 5.3.1.1 Thing)

15:10:09 [cris__]

q+

15:10:47 [kaz]

-> @@@

15:11:05 [kaz]

kaz: in that case, do we need to merge this PR 1844 now for 1.1 version?

15:11:13 [kaz]

... or should wait until 2.0 version?

15:11:40 [kaz]

... it depends on the current status of the existing implementations

15:11:43 [kaz]

ek: yes

15:12:14 [kaz]

ca: maybe should capture the issue here

15:13:16 [kaz]

s|@@@|https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing WoT Thing Description - 5.3.1.1 Thing|

15:13:40 [kaz]

ek: (adds two comments on the issues)

15:13:52 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1844#issuecomment-1727928170 Ege's comments

15:14:18 [kaz]

[[

15:14:18 [kaz]

@egekorkan will check the other places that have an array value, whether they allow 0 items in the array or not.

15:14:18 [kaz]

@egekorkan will check if there are any TDs submitted with empty op array (and other arrays if found in the point above)

15:14:19 [kaz]

]]

15:14:27 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:14:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

15:14:35 [kaz]

subtopic: 1866

15:15:01 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1866 PR 1866 - TD html ontology fix|

15:15:08 [kaz]

ek: a PR from Sebastian

15:15:22 [kaz]

... but seems he has not changed everything

15:15:53 [kaz]

ca: Mahda is an expert on this

15:16:19 [kaz]

q?

15:16:20 [kaz]

ack k

15:16:21 [kaz]

ack c

15:17:06 [kaz]

... nobody has fixed the issue yet

15:17:28 [kaz]

... we can merge this PR itself, and then can work on further fix

15:18:03 [kaz]

ek: if we merge this, it would impact the final index.html as well...

15:18:06 [kaz]

q+

15:19:31 [kaz]

ack k

15:19:46 [kaz]

kaz: agree

15:19:57 [kaz]

... should be careful to fix this PR

15:20:35 [kaz]

ek: right

15:21:19 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2019/wot/td TD Ontology fie

15:21:23 [kaz]

s/fie/file/

15:22:06 [kaz]

ek: (adds comments)

15:23:06 [kaz]

[[

15:23:08 [kaz]

@relu91 will do the correct solution by changing this PR but make sure that we do not change the index.html. He will also change it for the other missing keywords as shown in TD html ontology fix #1866 (comment)

15:23:11 [kaz]

]]

15:23:23 [kaz]

i|[[|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1866#issuecomment-1727945220 Ege's comments|

15:23:28 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:23:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

15:23:54 [kaz]

topic: Resources directory and Namespaces

15:24:13 [kaz]

subtopic: Namespace proposals

15:24:33 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/NAMESPACES.md NAMESPACES.md

15:25:01 [kaz]

ek: all the WoT developers will refer to this information

15:25:30 [kaz]

... so we should make sure all the resources for which version to be linked with which resource

15:25:43 [kaz]

... e.g., v1 for td-context-1.1.jsonld

15:25:55 [kaz]

... should talk about this during the main call as well

15:26:38 [kaz]

... McCool mentioned an idea on each TF's handling each resource on the TF's repository

15:26:43 [kaz]

... maybe not a bad idea

15:27:03 [kaz]

... there is a PR about this

15:27:28 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1863 PR 1863 - Add rec11 resources

15:27:43 [Ege]

q?

15:27:46 [kaz]

q+

15:30:01 [kaz]

ack k

15:30:27 [kaz]

kaz: I still think having a consolidated area for WoT resources would be better

15:31:22 [kaz]

... even for a tentative purposes, reusing the "publishing" area under each repository would be a big confusing and embarrassing

15:31:43 [kaz]

... because that area has been used for publication preparation and is kind of messy

15:32:12 [kaz]

... so would suggest we have some more discussion about this topic, e.g., including Farshid too

15:32:29 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1863#issuecomment-1727960884 Ege's comment

15:32:31 [kaz]

[[

15:32:38 [kaz]

Call of 20.09: The WG does not have a consensus on where to put these resources. Keeping it open until then.

15:32:39 [kaz]

]]

15:32:53 [kaz]

ek: would like to wrap up this topic quickly

15:33:02 [kaz]

q?

15:33:33 [kaz]

... e.g., right after the main call

15:34:06 [kaz]

kaz: so I suggested we have a 2-hour main call to discuss policy topics including this

15:34:38 [kaz]

topic: Binding Templates

15:35:15 [kaz]

subtopic: Note publication

15:35:30 [kaz]

kaz: very sorry for the big delay due to TPAC and Charter procedure, etc.

15:35:41 [kaz]

... working on the document check and would like to publish it this week

15:35:43 [kaz]

ek: ok

15:35:59 [kaz]

subtopic: BACnet Binding

15:36:06 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/209

15:36:36 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/209|-">https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/209|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/209 wot-binding-templates PR 209 - BACnet Binding|

15:36:55 [kaz]

mk: want to check JSON-LD context file and mapping

15:37:06 [kaz]

... actual protocol verbs

15:37:24 [kaz]

... expect a context file and a mapping file. right?

15:38:02 [kaz]

ek: outside implementers would like to have resources

15:38:14 [kaz]

... Jan has been working on CoAP

15:38:17 [cris__]

q+

15:38:24 [kaz]

... maybe we can refer to the resources there

15:38:31 [kaz]

s/there/there as an example/

15:39:14 [kaz]

jr: main HTML and template for SPARQL file

15:39:26 [kaz]

... ontology documented logically

15:39:48 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/tree/main/bindings/protocols/coap CoAP resources

15:40:10 [kaz]

jr: would make sense to have a guideline document

15:40:10 [kaz]

q?

15:40:10 [kaz]

q+

15:40:56 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/282 wot-binding-templates PR 282 - Initial work for vocabulary creation guide

15:41:06 [kaz]

ek: there is a PR for a possible guideline

15:41:12 [kaz]

... but it's almost empty

15:41:18 [kaz]

q?

15:41:42 [kaz]

mk: need ontology.html

15:41:56 [kaz]

... is that generated automatically?

15:42:02 [kaz]

ek: yeah

15:42:09 [kaz]

ack c

15:42:25 [kaz]

ca: should have a template folder

15:42:50 [kaz]

ek: there is an index.template.html under bindings

15:43:11 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/blob/main/bindings/index.template.html index.template.html

15:43:46 [mjk]

q?

15:43:59 [kaz]

ca: can't expect external contributors really follow the guideline

15:44:37 [kaz]

mk: if all those files are needed, should inform what the current work flow is like

15:45:14 [kaz]

... do we require all the flow on the resources?

15:45:29 [kaz]

... what do we consider what would be the "complete" binding?

15:46:05 [kaz]

ca: the idea is in the mapping, having the SHACL would be helpful

15:46:25 [kaz]

mk: was kind of too tired to follow that...

15:46:51 [kaz]

ek: Jan, can I ask you to add content to the proposed guideline?

15:47:03 [kaz]

... not update the PR 282 itself

15:47:04 [kaz]

q?

15:47:34 [kaz]

ack k

15:47:35 [JKRhb]

Sure, I will try to come up with a proposal :)

15:47:43 [kaz]

kaz: agree we should clarify what we want

15:47:53 [kaz]

... and updating this guideline would be helpful for that purpose

15:48:06 [kaz]

... so asking Jan for help is reasonable :)

15:48:59 [kaz]

ek: (shows the preview)

15:49:14 [cris__]

q+

15:49:14 [kaz]

-> https://deploy-preview-209--wot-binding-templates.netlify.app/bindings/protocols/bacnet/#vocabulary Preview of PR209 - 5. BACnet Vocabulary

15:49:37 [kaz]

ca: Koster, if you have any questions, please let me know

15:49:42 [kaz]

mk: tx!

15:49:47 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:49:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

15:50:14 [kaz]

topic: AOB?

15:50:21 [kaz]

ek: any other business for today?

15:50:23 [kaz]

(none)

15:50:25 [kaz]

[adjourned]

15:50:29 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:50:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz