14:03:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:03:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-irc
14:03:56 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:04:51 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Luca_Babato, Michael_Koster
14:04:52 <kaz> q+
14:06:14 <kaz> ack k
14:07:54 <cris__> cris__ has joined #wot-td
14:08:14 <kaz> kaz: as suggested during the Scripting, Security and Discovery calls, would suggest we as the TD-TF should quickly skim the minutes and summarize important points from TPAC meetings and generate an action item for the TD-TF and the whole WG./
14:08:21 <kaz> i/as suggested/topic: Agenda/
14:08:39 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:09:12 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_20.2C_2023
14:09:18 <kaz> chair: Ege/Koster
14:09:23 <kaz> ek: ok
14:09:30 <kaz> ... (updates the agenda)
14:09:43 <kaz> i|as suggested|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#September_20.2C_2023 agenda for today|
14:10:11 <kaz> ... would add slides as well
14:10:16 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
14:10:22 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 1
14:10:22 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/15-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 2
14:10:22 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html JSON-LD, WoT, RCH joint meeting
14:10:22 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html#t11 APA WG
14:10:23 <kaz> -> https://hackmd.io/@U6kq3KikTwSQiGSvlEw7vA/SyB0DJ3Cn Web Agent CG
14:10:33 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:10:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:11:18 <Ege> q?
14:12:44 <kaz> i/as suggested/scribenick: kaz/
14:13:02 <cris__> scribe+
14:13:03 <kaz> scribenick: cris__
14:13:40 <cris__> topic: minutes
14:14:08 <cris__> ege: it is annoying to review minutes without screen sharing
14:14:21 <cris__> ... it might be easier to have them in other formats
14:14:29 <kaz> q+
14:15:06 <cris__> kaz: we can have several options but the easiest one is to review the minutes before the call and mention the errors during the calls
14:15:17 <cris__> ege: right but for typos it is hard
14:15:46 <cris__> kaz: if we can do a task in just two minutes we can do synchronously
14:15:47 <Ege> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/06-wot-td-minutes.html
14:15:55 <cris__> ege: any problems with the minutes?
14:16:04 <cris__> ... I wasn't in the call
14:16:08 <cris__> ... ok minutes approved
14:16:26 <cris__> topic: next meetings
14:16:35 <cris__> ege: I don't see any problems with the TD call
14:16:46 <cris__> ... do you see any possible cancellations in the short future?
14:16:53 <cris__> ... ok
14:17:02 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/2023/09/06-wot-td-minutes.html||
14:17:04 <cris__> ... no cancelations
14:17:10 <kaz> i|it is an|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/06-wot-td-minutes.html Sep-6|
14:17:14 <cris__> topic: TPAC
14:18:12 <kaz> i|topic: next meetings|(all the speakers names have been spelled out)|
14:18:13 <cris__> ege: basically in TPAC we had the TD section on Thursday
14:18:19 <cris__> ... sebastian presented an overview
14:18:30 <cris__> ... then I talked about the registry approach
14:18:30 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 1
14:18:31 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/15-wot-minutes.html WoT WG/IG Day 2
14:18:31 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html JSON-LD, WoT, RCH joint meeting
14:18:31 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html#t11 APA WG
14:18:31 <kaz> -> https://hackmd.io/@U6kq3KikTwSQiGSvlEw7vA/SyB0DJ3Cn Web Agent CG
14:18:36 <cris__> s/sebastian/Sebastian/
14:18:54 <cris__> ege: we will do a refactoring where the Binding will be explained in the TD document
14:19:03 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:19:06 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:19:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:19:20 <cris__> ... then Sebastian introduced the different big items to deal with in the next charter
14:19:25 <cris__> ... basically a quick intro
14:19:29 <kaz> i|basically|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf/2023_WoT_TPAC_Agenda#TPAC_Agenda TPAC agenda|
14:19:36 <cris__> ... then I presented the binding registry
14:20:29 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
14:20:32 <cris__> ... I presented the Registry mechanism from the W3C process doc
14:20:39 <cris__> ... gave some examples
14:21:02 <cris__> ... some use the word registry but they are not really following the exact W3C Process be careful
14:21:17 <cris__> ... I talk with the co-editors of the webcodes
14:21:20 <cris__> ... good feedbacks
14:21:36 <cris__> ... but we should be careful about how the table will evolve over time
14:21:47 <cris__> ... in particular how to regulate contributions to the table
14:21:57 <cris__> ... the registry is a new concept within the W3C
14:22:33 <cris__> ... we can define minimum berries for contributing the the registry
14:23:05 <cris__> ... other than that we talk about the users and contributors
14:23:41 <cris__> ... kaz also provided other examples
14:24:00 <cris__> ... DID is one (but it is not an official registry)
14:24:22 <kaz> q+
14:25:13 <cris__> kaz: note that the w3c process provide a procedure for registry track. Any group could use the procedure. However, w3c do not provide anything on how to manage the process
14:25:51 <cris__> ... I am not sure which can be considered "true" registries because each group can interpret the process according to their view
14:26:01 <kaz> ack k
14:26:08 <cris__> ... we can look into the best practices
14:26:18 <cris__> ege: I agree we have to look at our requirements and use cases
14:26:35 <cris__> kaz: we should mention this complication in our note
14:26:43 <cris__> ege: yes
14:27:29 <cris__> kaz: note meaning new markdown documents to be generated
14:27:34 <cris__> ... as feedback from TPAC
14:28:13 <kaz> s/generated/generated as McCool mentioned during the main call./
14:29:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:30:30 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima, Jan_Romann
14:31:37 <kaz> s/as feedback from TPAC/as mentioned during TPAC, there are several WGs within W3C as well, and they also should be referred to./
14:31:40 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:31:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:31:59 <cris__> ege: Michael suggested to use a append-only approach for the registry
14:32:09 <cris__> ... we should see how it will work
14:32:38 <cris__> ... and also binding proposal should be bundled with validation
14:32:49 <cris__> ... any comments missing?
14:35:48 <cris__> ege: do we have an action item?
14:36:09 <cris__> cris: it could be good to have a document where we describe the policies for accepting new bindings
14:36:19 <cris__> ege: where do we start?
14:36:21 <cris__> q+
14:37:55 <cris__> cris: should we work on wot repository?
14:38:08 <cris__> ege: yeah but we need to take care
14:38:21 <cris__> ... of other reports
14:38:37 <cris__> mk: there will be a policy element
14:39:11 <cris__> ... but there are also related reports that we need to tackle. Mostly intermediate documents.
14:39:24 <cris__> ege: ok for using wot repository
14:39:39 <cris__> ... it can be used by other task forces
14:39:42 <mjk> q?
14:39:56 <kaz> q+
14:40:00 <Ege> ack c
14:40:13 <cris__> cris: ok for the directory
14:40:22 <cris__> kaz: we as group we need to clarify the policy
14:41:24 <cris__> ... regarding the append-only approach there is some possibility of somebody requesting removing dengerous contributions (from the legal point of view)
14:41:29 <cris__> ... we need to think about it
14:42:22 <cris__> ege: I understand
14:42:40 <cris__> ... in any case we should add some workarounds to invalidate something
14:42:50 <cris__> kaz: that's why I asking to review other registries
14:43:32 <cris__> cris: +1
14:43:38 <luca_barbato> q+
14:43:52 <kaz> ack k
14:43:56 <cris__> mk: the whole policy should guartee a level of append-only but we should be flexible
14:44:07 <cris__> kaz: we should be fair to everyone too.
14:44:25 <cris__> luca: keep in mind that the registry contains just a description + link
14:44:33 <cris__> ege: the problem is the content of the linked document
14:44:45 <cris__> luca: is it something that you can control?
14:44:57 <cris__> ... if it is not permanent we should reject
14:45:22 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:45:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:45:30 <cris__> ... we don't have many ways to make something that is not legal
14:45:31 <cris__> ... it is not a big concern
14:45:51 <cris__> ... the good point to have append-only is to not breaking backward compatibility
14:46:34 <cris__> ... we are not going to host any content
14:47:12 <cris__> ege: the problem is when for example somebody says falsities
14:47:26 <cris__> ... we should invalidate it
14:48:29 <kaz> q+
14:48:32 <kaz> ack l
14:49:04 <cris__> cris: we might need to host documents and poeple might ask to remove dangerous content
14:49:16 <cris__> luca: that's why we should never host those documents ourselve
14:49:49 <cris__> ... the registry is just about there is something that is accepted by enough people
14:50:33 <cris__> ege: ok but the point is for example matter what happens if they want to remove it
14:50:48 <cris__> luca: it's they fault
14:50:54 <cris__> ege: ok but we need to explain it
14:50:57 <kaz> s/they/their/
14:51:18 <cris__> luca: if we want to operate such IANA we should reject stuff that does not abide to such rules
14:52:07 <cris__> q+
14:52:29 <kaz> s/IANA/a registry/
14:53:30 <cris__> luca: if we store all the information
14:54:02 <cris__> ... of the protocol. We are open to get any kind of legal request
14:54:34 <cris__> ... if we cache the matter protocol for example and however published it was a mistake then it is a problem
14:54:50 <Ege> q?
14:54:58 <cris__> ... we should store the smallest unit of information
14:56:14 <cris__> kaz: we should discuss what we mean and what we want, that's ok (I suggested to look at other registries). For today, we should summarize the discussion for TPAC
14:56:27 <cris__> ... we can work on the detail later, as whole group.
14:56:41 <cris__> ege: I'll create the markdown
14:56:51 <cris__> ack c
14:57:21 <kaz> i/I'll create the markdown/Right. On the other hand, would like to record what we've been discussing so far as a markdown./
14:57:22 <kaz> ack k
14:58:06 <kaz> kaz: that's fine but we should dive into the detail on possible registry policies today during this call because we were simply summarizing the TPAC discussion./
14:58:11 <kaz> s|./|.|
14:58:31 <kaz> s/fine/fine as an initial input for further discussion,/
14:59:03 <cris__> ege: we should followup for the action items
14:59:18 <cris__> ... maybe split the work
14:59:27 <cris__> ... we talk about this later on
14:59:59 <cris__> topic: Thing description
15:00:23 <cris__> s/Thing description/Thing Description PRs/
15:00:40 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1858
15:00:47 <cris__> subtopic: 1858
15:01:03 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1858||
15:01:13 <cris__> ege: got the verbal approval from the director
15:01:18 <cris__> ... is it ok to merge it now?
15:01:42 <kaz> i|got|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1858 PR 1858 Remove mention of atrisk section|
15:01:46 <cris__> kaz: I had to comment on the PR before the call
15:03:48 <kaz> (added a comment on the approval)
15:04:05 <cris__> ege: ok merged
15:04:21 <cris__> subtopic: 1843
15:04:23 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1843
15:04:41 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:04:47 <cris__> ege: ok it would be nice if you can comment kaz
15:04:54 <kaz> s/1843/1843 PR 1843 - Fix well known operation types only/
15:05:37 <kaz> (gave a comment on the approval)
15:06:07 <cris__> ege: merged
15:06:21 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
15:06:35 <kaz> subtopic: 1844
15:06:55 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1844 PR 1844 - Update schema to not allow empty op array
15:07:24 <kaz> kaz: so this is basically bug fix on JSON schema. Right?
15:07:31 <kaz> ek: yes
15:08:21 <cris__> q+
15:08:23 <kaz> ... it's about whether it's allowed to use an empty "op" array or not
15:08:29 <kaz> ack c
15:08:39 <kaz> ca: not sure if it's correctly recorded
15:08:46 <kaz> ... but it's what we should do in the future
15:09:00 <kaz> ... you can't have an empty array
15:09:09 <kaz> ... need to address for 2.0
15:09:10 <kaz> q?
15:09:13 <kaz> q+
15:09:33 <kaz> lb: fine to merge it if it's consistent with the future version
15:10:01 <kaz> ek: (shows 5.3.1.1 Thing)
15:10:09 <cris__> q+
15:10:47 <kaz> -> @@@
15:11:05 <kaz> kaz: in that case, do we need to merge this PR 1844 now for 1.1 version?
15:11:13 <kaz> ... or should wait until 2.0 version?
15:11:40 <kaz> ... it depends on the current status of the existing implementations
15:11:43 <kaz> ek: yes
15:12:14 <kaz> ca: maybe should capture the issue here
15:13:16 <kaz> s|@@@|https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing WoT Thing Description - 5.3.1.1 Thing|
15:13:40 <kaz> ek: (adds two comments on the issues)
15:13:52 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1844#issuecomment-1727928170 Ege's comments
15:14:18 <kaz> [[
15:14:18 <kaz> @egekorkan will check the other places that have an array value, whether they allow 0 items in the array or not.
15:14:18 <kaz> @egekorkan will check if there are any TDs submitted with empty op array (and other arrays if found in the point above)
15:14:19 <kaz> ]]
15:14:27 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:14:35 <kaz> subtopic: 1866
15:15:01 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1866 PR 1866 - TD html ontology fix|
15:15:08 <kaz> ek: a PR from Sebastian
15:15:22 <kaz> ... but seems he has not changed everything
15:15:53 <kaz> ca: Mahda is an expert on this
15:16:19 <kaz> q?
15:16:20 <kaz> ack k
15:16:21 <kaz> ack c
15:17:06 <kaz> ... nobody has fixed the issue yet
15:17:28 <kaz> ... we can merge this PR itself, and then can work on further fix
15:18:03 <kaz> ek: if we merge this, it would impact the final index.html as well...
15:18:06 <kaz> q+
15:19:31 <kaz> ack k
15:19:46 <kaz> kaz: agree
15:19:57 <kaz> ... should be careful to fix this PR
15:20:35 <kaz> ek: right
15:21:19 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2019/wot/td TD Ontology fie
15:21:23 <kaz> s/fie/file/
15:22:06 <kaz> ek: (adds comments)
15:23:06 <kaz> [[
15:23:08 <kaz> @relu91 will do the correct solution by changing this PR but make sure that we do not change the index.html. He will also change it for the other missing keywords as shown in TD html ontology fix  #1866 (comment)
15:23:11 <kaz> ]]
15:23:23 <kaz> i|[[|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1866#issuecomment-1727945220 Ege's comments|
15:23:28 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:23:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:23:54 <kaz> topic: Resources directory and Namespaces
15:24:13 <kaz> subtopic: Namespace proposals
15:24:33 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/NAMESPACES.md NAMESPACES.md
15:25:01 <kaz> ek: all the WoT developers will refer to this information
15:25:30 <kaz> ... so we should make sure all the resources for which version to be linked with which resource
15:25:43 <kaz> ... e.g., v1 for td-context-1.1.jsonld
15:25:55 <kaz> ... should talk about this during the main call as well
15:26:38 <kaz> ... McCool mentioned an idea on each TF's handling each resource on the TF's repository
15:26:43 <kaz> ... maybe not a bad idea
15:27:03 <kaz> ... there is a PR about this
15:27:28 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1863 PR 1863 - Add rec11 resources
15:27:43 <Ege> q?
15:27:46 <kaz> q+
15:30:01 <kaz> ack k
15:30:27 <kaz> kaz: I still think having a consolidated area for WoT resources would be better
15:31:22 <kaz> ... even for a tentative purposes, reusing the "publishing" area under each repository would be a big confusing and embarrassing
15:31:43 <kaz> ... because that area has been used for publication preparation and is kind of messy
15:32:12 <kaz> ... so would suggest we have some more discussion about this topic, e.g., including Farshid too
15:32:29 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1863#issuecomment-1727960884 Ege's comment
15:32:31 <kaz> [[
15:32:38 <kaz> Call of 20.09: The WG does not have a consensus on where to put these resources. Keeping it open until then.
15:32:39 <kaz> ]]
15:32:53 <kaz> ek: would like to wrap up this topic quickly
15:33:02 <kaz> q?
15:33:33 <kaz> ... e.g., right after the main call
15:34:06 <kaz> kaz: so I suggested we have a 2-hour main call to discuss policy topics including this
15:34:38 <kaz> topic: Binding Templates
15:35:15 <kaz> subtopic: Note publication
15:35:30 <kaz> kaz: very sorry for the big delay due to TPAC and Charter procedure, etc.
15:35:41 <kaz> ... working on the document check and would like to publish it this week
15:35:43 <kaz> ek: ok
15:35:59 <kaz> subtopic: BACnet Binding
15:36:06 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/209
15:36:36 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/209|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/209 wot-binding-templates PR 209 - BACnet Binding|
15:36:55 <kaz> mk: want to check JSON-LD context file and mapping
15:37:06 <kaz> ... actual protocol verbs
15:37:24 <kaz> ... expect a context file and a mapping file. right?
15:38:02 <kaz> ek: outside implementers would like to have resources
15:38:14 <kaz> ... Jan has been working on CoAP
15:38:17 <cris__> q+
15:38:24 <kaz> ... maybe we can refer to the resources there
15:38:31 <kaz> s/there/there as an example/
15:39:14 <kaz> jr: main HTML and template for SPARQL file
15:39:26 <kaz> ... ontology documented logically
15:39:48 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/tree/main/bindings/protocols/coap CoAP resources
15:40:10 <kaz> jr: would make sense to have a guideline document
15:40:10 <kaz> q?
15:40:10 <kaz> q+
15:40:56 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/282 wot-binding-templates PR 282 - Initial work for vocabulary creation guide
15:41:06 <kaz> ek: there is a PR for a possible guideline
15:41:12 <kaz> ... but it's almost empty
15:41:18 <kaz> q?
15:41:42 <kaz> mk: need ontology.html
15:41:56 <kaz> ... is that generated automatically?
15:42:02 <kaz> ek: yeah
15:42:09 <kaz> ack c
15:42:25 <kaz> ca: should have a template folder
15:42:50 <kaz> ek: there is an index.template.html under bindings
15:43:11 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/blob/main/bindings/index.template.html index.template.html
15:43:46 <mjk> q?
15:43:59 <kaz> ca: can't expect external contributors really follow the guideline
15:44:37 <kaz> mk: if all those files are needed, should inform what the current work flow is like
15:45:14 <kaz> ... do we require all the flow on the resources?
15:45:29 <kaz> ... what do we consider what would be the "complete" binding?
15:46:05 <kaz> ca: the idea is in the mapping, having the SHACL would be helpful
15:46:25 <kaz> mk: was kind of too tired to follow that...
15:46:51 <kaz> ek: Jan, can I ask you to add content to the proposed guideline?
15:47:03 <kaz> ... not update the PR 282 itself
15:47:04 <kaz> q?
15:47:34 <kaz> ack k
15:47:35 <JKRhb> Sure, I will try to come up with a proposal :)
15:47:43 <kaz> kaz: agree we should clarify what we want
15:47:53 <kaz> ... and updating this guideline would be helpful for that purpose
15:48:06 <kaz> ... so asking Jan for help is reasonable :)
15:48:59 <kaz> ek: (shows the preview)
15:49:14 <cris__> q+
15:49:14 <kaz> -> https://deploy-preview-209--wot-binding-templates.netlify.app/bindings/protocols/bacnet/#vocabulary Preview of PR209 - 5.  BACnet Vocabulary
15:49:37 <kaz> ca: Koster, if you have any questions, please let me know
15:49:42 <kaz> mk: tx!
15:49:47 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:49:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:50:14 <kaz> topic: AOB?
15:50:21 <kaz> ek: any other business for today?
15:50:23 <kaz> (none)
15:50:25 <kaz> [adjourned]
15:50:29 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz