12:27:31 RRSAgent has joined #wot 12:27:35 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-irc 12:27:46 Zakim has joined #wot 12:28:34 chair: Sebastian_Kaebisch 12:28:56 Meeting: WoT WG/IG TPAC - DAY 1 12:28:57 aciortea has joined #wot 12:29:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:29:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html cris_ 12:29:12 ktoumura has joined #wot 12:30:25 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 12:31:11 present+ Andrei_Ciortea 12:31:20 cris_ has changed the topic to: WoT WG/IG TPAC - DAY 1; Calendar event: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/4bc67292-6edc-4e66-8d97-bdf0cb2eb46a/ 12:31:28 Robert_Winkler has joined #wot 12:31:34 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 12:31:56 topic: Introduction 12:32:06 seb: welcome everyone! 12:32:32 scribenick: cris_ 12:32:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:32:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html cris_ 12:33:05 present+ mahda-noura 12:33:09 seb: please respect the W3C Patent policy 12:33:25 minyongli has joined #wot 12:33:49 present+ Daniel_Peintner 12:34:16 ... health rules, code of ethics, and respect the queue 12:34:25 ... if you have any question use the irc 12:34:39 marie has left #wot 12:34:48 Ege has joined #wot 12:34:50 present+ Minyong_Li 12:34:57 present+ Ege_Korkan 12:35:05 q+ 12:35:43 q- 12:35:43 dezell has joined #wot 12:35:43 kudzai-manditereza_ has joined #wot 12:35:43 hirata has joined #wot 12:35:43 glomb has joined #wot 12:35:43 present+ 12:35:43 ktoumura_ has joined #wot 12:35:43 present+ David_Ezell 12:35:46 present+ Robert Winkler 12:36:02 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 12:36:02 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura 12:36:04 present+ Michael_McCool 12:36:04 present+ 12:36:50 https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-09-tpac 12:36:53 seb: all the presentations are hosted in the link above 12:37:36 Bert has joined #wot 12:37:36 SalCataldi__ has joined #wot 12:37:36 ... please upload you slide deck at the link if you didn't already 12:37:36 topic: Agenda overview 12:37:38 present+ 12:38:09 seb: today Use cases, TD, Discovery and the Accessibility Joint meeting 12:38:24 present+ Bert Bos (W3C) 12:38:32 ... tomorrow outreach, security, profile and next steps 12:38:44 subtopic: Today's agenda 12:39:03 seb: intro and report of what happened in TPAC so fare 12:39:07 s/fare/far/ 12:39:27 ... after use cases lead by mccool 12:39:30 kaz has joined #wot 12:39:42 ... then TD meeting with Michael Koster and Ege 12:39:50 ... short break and then Discovery 12:40:13 ... at 17:30 we have to change the room 12:40:15 ... 1st floor 12:40:25 q+ 12:40:39 ... after finishing the meetings we will do a photo at the front of the pool 12:40:53 rrsagent, make log public 12:41:17 mizushima: is the use case and requirements slot is 30 min? or 45 min? 12:41:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:41:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:41:32 ege: there is a error in the agenda 12:41:48 seb: fixed 12:42:00 subtopic: tonight dinner 12:42:06 ack Mizushima 12:42:11 seb: wot dinner is planned today 12:42:28 ... please if you don't have already let us know 12:43:32 topic: Introduction 12:43:46 seb: a short introduction about what we are doing 12:44:53 ... as you know the current IoT landscape is fragmented and it causes problems when it comes to develop large scale applications that work across different domains 12:45:06 ... to solve this we designed the Thing Description 12:46:13 ktoumura has joined #wot 12:46:23 ... lately we published 1.1 version of the major rec documents 12:46:49 ... soon we will publish two notes Scripting APIs and Binding Template 12:47:02 ... we also planning a next charter 12:47:13 q+ 12:47:23 ... we passed the voting and it will start in October 12:48:15 ... it is a good time to join and be there in the very beginning 12:48:15 ... please welcome if you are not jet a member 12:48:25 ... help us into improve interoperability in the IoT world 12:48:40 subtopic: TPAC meetings summary 12:48:56 seb: joint meeting with the Web Agents CG 12:49:50 ... we discuss how TD can help to design TDs for autonoums agents 12:50:06 ... we also met with JSON for linked data WG, were we got interesting feedbacks 12:50:23 zakim, who is on the call? 12:50:24 Present: Tomoaki_Mizushima, Andrei_Ciortea, Cristiano_Aguzzi, mahda-noura, Daniel_Peintner, Minyong_Li, Ege_Korkan, glomb, David_Ezell, Robert, Winkler, Sebastian_Kaebisch, 12:50:24 ... Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_McCool, kudzai-manditereza_, SalCataldi__, Bert, Bos, (W3C) 12:50:29 ... the breakouts sessions were interesting too 12:50:33 rrsagent, make log public 12:50:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:50:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:51:09 ... we discussed about Home assistant, WoT role in smart cities, and new ways to define ontologies and json schemas 12:51:21 ... today we also got a hands on section organized by the CG 12:51:50 seb: questions? 12:52:00 kaz: quick update about publication schedule 12:53:10 ... talked with the author of the interoperability comment, we just need to add one line or to in the implementation report 12:53:31 ... and the problem about the new charter should be also solved 12:53:36 ... in short not big issues 12:53:38 q? 12:53:41 ack k 12:53:49 hirata has joined #wot 12:53:54 topic: Use case and Requirements 12:54:25 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 12:54:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:55:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html cris_ 12:56:07 mc: we have a large number of use case collected and a huge number of feature requests 12:56:42 ... we need to connect use cases and proposed improvements 12:57:08 ... also a lot of use cases are really generic IoT use cases and we needed to use some work to traspose to WoT 12:57:14 ... also some of them were vague 12:57:38 ... like security they asked to be protected, but we had to understand what they really wanted 12:58:01 ... same of them are use cases of technologies 12:58:26 12:59:27 mc: I propose a way to categories use cases 12:59:52 q+ 12:59:53 q+ 13:00:14 ... I made a list of example categories 13:00:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:00:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:01:08 s/Use case and Requirements/Use cases and Requirements/ 13:02:19 q? 13:02:21 ... then I have more specialized discussion around Discovery and Security. In particular how to organize use cases 13:02:21 ack e 13:02:44 q+ 13:02:46 ege: I think we can use the category to labels, but I don't how they could help 13:02:55 mc: categorization is a different problem 13:03:08 s/categorization/prioritization/ 13:03:28 mc: categories are here to help to reduce complexity 13:03:52 ege: small thing, we would probably see that 1 work item will result in multiple features 13:04:20 i|today Use|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-09-tpac/2023-09-14-WoT-TPAC-Opening-Sebastian.pdf Sebastian's slides| 13:05:27 q+ 13:05:27 q+ 13:05:27 cris: sometimes it happens that a requirement is directly connected to a specific use case 13:05:27 mc: let me capture that 13:06:12 q+ to ask about arrow direction 13:06:13 ack c 13:07:01 kaz: I agree with the approach, for today we can concentrate in the basic consensus 13:07:06 ... for example the categorization will help and then refine 13:07:09 ack k 13:07:14 mc: I want to reduce the workload 13:07:37 endo_ has joined #wot 13:07:42 luca_barbato has joined #wot 13:08:05 kaz: some part of some category and some part of use case might be connected to different requirements 13:08:17 q+ 13:08:26 ... today let's leave this details outside, just focus on the policy 13:09:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:09:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:09:58 mc: use cases variegate a lot in the details 13:09:58 ryo has left #wot 13:09:58 ... categories help to unify and cover the gap 13:09:58 q+ 13:09:59 seb: if you have a small feature request should I go with the full path 13:10:24 ... for example, for introducing a new profile attribute should we go full depth? 13:10:29 mc: think so 13:10:33 q- 13:10:33 qq+ 13:10:42 ack seb 13:11:20 mc: also I want to give use cases and requirements identifiers 13:11:48 kaz: I agree, we don't need to generate a complete new use case description. We could also extends the existing one 13:11:50 ack k 13:11:50 kaz, you wanted to react to kaz 13:12:21 s/Robert Winkler/Robert_Winkler 13:12:34 i|we have a large number|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-09-tpac/2023-09-14-WoT-TPAC-UseCases-McCool.pdf McCool's slides| 13:12:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:12:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:12:45 mahda: about the categories list, if we want to abstract from tech then we should not have cloud integration as category 13:12:55 zkis has joined #wot 13:13:07 mc: requirements might have sub requirements 13:13:48 s/topic: Introduction/subtopic: WoT in a nutshell/ 13:13:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:13:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:14:25 present+ Zoltan_Kis 13:14:50 q? 13:14:58 ack mahda 13:15:22 david: I think you are right, categories are helpful 13:16:08 +1 to david 13:16:09 ... it is a convenience and it could be used to keep up tidy up the use case and requirements 13:16:42 ... I use something like this all the time 13:17:06 mc: we can use tooling to clean this up? 13:17:11 david: yep 13:17:11 qq+ 13:17:49 ack deze 13:17:49 dezell, you wanted to ask about arrow direction 13:17:58 ack dape 13:17:58 dape, you wanted to react to mahda-noura 13:18:16 dape: we have tooling to connect use cases to the original cause 13:18:46 luca: the end of the result is a feature 13:18:54 ... with the graph we can justify it 13:19:24 ... I doubt that we will change the use cases a lot. 13:19:39 mc: yeah at least it will be really easy to do it 13:20:17 luca: I like the approach and make our life simplier 13:20:27 mc: more making the process more robust 13:20:48 ... and say exactly why we introduced a certain feature 13:21:31 luca: categorization might improve the whole process 13:21:41 ... but still some work needs to be done 13:21:53 q+ 13:21:55 ack c 13:21:57 q? 13:22:00 ack l 13:22:38 subtopic: security 13:22:53 mc: Security is special 13:23:29 ... we have a security consideration document that needs to be connect with security mitigations 13:24:05 ... we can select use cases affected by a treat 13:25:39 ... and connect mitigations 13:25:39 subtopic: discovery 13:25:39 mc: it is more typical 13:25:39 ... we have a simple set of statements about requirements 13:26:13 ... we should press forward with one task force and then scale to others 13:26:13 ... we are missing queries in discovery 13:26:25 ... about the process 13:26:33 subtopic: process 13:27:16 mc: two modes: each task force defines it's own document in their repository or we centralize the use case collection and definition. 13:27:59 ... it might be better to have a centralized definition 13:28:04 q+ 13:28:07 q+ 13:28:16 ack seb 13:28:52 q+ 13:28:52 seb: I support the idea to keep everything simple as possible and we should not touch the existing use cases 13:28:52 q+ 13:28:52 ... it should be good to have a policy that welcomes new feature 13:29:31 ... we should reduce the impression that is hard to implement a new feature 13:29:31 ktoumura_ has joined #wot 13:30:27 kaz: I agree, we should have a single use case document 13:30:27 ... that covers all 13:31:04 ... and then report which specification should be affected by the use cases 13:31:09 ack k 13:31:30 mc: first of all, we need to have again the use cases meetings 13:31:38 ... we could start from discovery 13:31:47 ... because is simple 13:31:56 ... then we can tackle the TD 13:32:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:32:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:32:33 q? 13:32:33 ... let's discuss this in the Discovery task force 13:33:38 ege: we should clean up old use cases 13:33:51 ack e 13:34:03 ... also work items in the end needs to land in the specific task force repo 13:34:21 ack cr 13:35:05 scribe: dape 13:35:06 cris: I agree with Ege on clean up requirements 13:35:17 TOPIC: TD and Bindings 13:35:59 SK: Agenda for this slot 13:36:13 s/that covers all/because we should start with strong needs from the viewpoints of users, developers and vendors rather than we ourselves start discussion on which features are needed for which spec./ 13:36:16 ... short overview about planned activities 13:36:22 ... binding registry 13:36:47 ... manageable actions (Koster?) 13:37:03 s/single use case document/single use case document which covers all the the use cases for WoT/ 13:37:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:37:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:37:13 ... need to check whether Michael Koster is joining 13:37:13 q? 13:37:16 ... fallback with my presentation 13:38:08 SUBTOPIC: planned TD activities 13:38:26 SK:

in TD 13:38:39 ... thing model there since TD 1.1 13:39:24 q? 13:39:43 ... different security schemes in TD 13:40:01 ... close side-document about binding mechanisms 13:40:43 ... which refers to the dedicated binding documents for HTTP, Modbus, MQTT, .. 13:40:53 .. this is the current status today 13:41:11 ... we received some feedback 13:41:23 ... not clear about the documents etc 13:41:34 ... we had lots of discussions 13:41:51 ... we were thinking about re-organizing the structure 13:41:53 i|Agenda for this|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-09-tpac/2023-09-14-TD2-Planning-Sebastian.pdf Sebastian's slides| 13:41:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:41:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:42:03 q+ 13:42:13 ... basic mechanism should be in TD itself 13:42:37 ZK about having multiple documents: it's actually a recommended practice to split into multiple specific documents 13:42:42 ... specific implementations like Modbus etc should be specified in external document 13:43:04 ... security should be in TD any-longer .. it should be bound to binding 13:44:00 ... also new concept: binding templates managed by external SDOs like ECHONET, etc 13:44:00 ... long discussion 13:44:17 ... protocol "owner" should support specific binding 13:44:30 ... WOT can help and guide what is needed 13:44:45 ... that's our latest working assumption for now 13:44:46 Slide 4 looks like a plugin mechanism - indeed the spec should just describe the plugin API. Implementation notes would be separate. 13:44:46 q+ 13:45:00 ... Ege will introduce registry mechanism later 13:45:06 q+ 13:45:11 ack McCool_ 13:45:32 Ege: Not necessarily SDOs but also other groups 13:45:37 ack Ege 13:45:42 ... could be other CG or so 13:45:52 SK: Correct 13:45:52 q? 13:45:57 q+ 13:46:18 ack SalCataldi__ 13:46:40 matsuda has joined #wot 13:46:53 RC: in BACnet standard we also speak about concept only and support externals 13:47:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:47:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:47:36 ... manufacturer usually does not the entire concept and use just what they need 13:48:03 ... applications are all different 13:48:22 ... integrators are free about the scope 13:48:31 Kaz: I am okay with the approach also 13:48:50 ... anyhow, suggest to continue the discussion what is needed 13:49:02 ... later decide how to deal with it 13:49:33 q? 13:49:33 ... 2 step approach should be applied here 13:49:36 ack k 13:50:02 SK: Job of charter and follow the experience 13:51:05 SK: I would like to speak about Planned Topics for next charter 13:51:05 s/what is needed/what (=what kind of information, data, mapping) is needed for what purpose first./ 13:51:38 ... at the moment TD has a basic way to describe endpoint 13:52:11 ... there is the base term 13:52:11 ... identify protocol .. and where is server located 13:52:11 s/later decide how to deal with it/and then need to think about how to deal with that (=which group using what mechanism, e.g., registry or Note, with which group or SDO) later./ 13:52:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:52:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:52:21 ... there are protocols out there that need more 13:52:33 ... like endianess ind Modbus etc 13:53:12 ... no place yet in TD 13:53:46 RC: In BACnet we have objects to describe the parameters for drivers 13:53:51 q+ 13:53:52 ... universal object might not be possible 13:54:11 SK: another idea is to optimize TDs 13:55:02 ... depending on protocol at the moment we need to specify contentType for each resource 13:55:39 ... if other than application/json 13:56:00 SK: Another topic are manageable actions 13:56:07 ... so far we did not find consensus 13:56:17 ... no good standard we can rely on 13:56:30 ... different solutions exist 13:56:55 s/endianess/endianness/ 13:57:31 ... it is about controlling actions that run 13:58:12 q+ 13:58:12 RC: in BACnet we have different ways to model this situation 13:58:12 ... subscribe to events 13:58:26 ... not specific to BACnet 13:58:40 q? 13:59:07 ... actions can have different return codes depending on the status they are 13:59:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:59:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:59:25 ... BACnet does not define it .. but allows different means to achieve that 14:00:14 SK: Question is to just have an abstract way 14:00:14 ... subprotocol can take over the actual solution 14:00:14 q? 14:00:17 CA: Bottom up approach based on BACnet and HTTP etc 14:00:23 ack lu 14:00:28 LB: 2 Proposal to tackle 14:00:34 ... uniform the efforts 14:00:46 ... be explicit 14:01:14 ... it is either a relation of a property which is going to change 14:01:35 ... action in charge 14:02:14 i/2 Proposal to/subtopic: Manageable Actions/ 14:02:20 LB: Note about previous slide: TD at the moment does not model connected protocols good enough 14:02:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:02:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-wot-minutes.html kaz 14:02:51 ... security schemes can be used to have building blocks 14:03:16 MMC: different ways of doing async actions 14:03:32 ... try to describe existing things 14:03:43 q+ 14:04:09 ... later on we could create abstraction 14:04:17 q+ 14:04:22 ack mc 14:04:34 EK: 2 things 14:04:40 ack e 14:05:03 q+ 14:05:06 ... 1. recommend default mechanism ... pushing people in the right direction 14:05:34 ... 2. long running affordances do not apply to actions only 14:05:49 q+ 14:05:55 ... like event (alarms) chains 14:06:15 Kaz: Skeptical about how to extend the TD in that sense 14:06:26 ... TD is just about describing .. 14:06:44 ... managing long running actions to big/complicated 14:07:30 ... we should clarify the needs 14:08:07 q+ 14:08:27 ... car manufacturer use state charts to model it 14:09:35 ... we should not re-invent it 14:09:35 ack k 14:09:35 SK: We still need to decide whether we stay on the abstract model 14:09:35 RC: experience from BACnet 14:09:35 ... we started with different examples 14:10:09 ... looking at runtime interoperability 14:10:32 ... needed interoperations ... bring things together 14:10:41 s/TD is just about describing ../originally, TD is about how to describe the capability of each device./ 14:10:41 ... what is the minimum set 14:10:50 ... others can build on top of it 14:11:05 q- 14:11:05 q? 14:11:13 d/car manu/for example, car manu/ 14:11:14 ack SalCataldi__ 14:11:53 MN: In my Phd I considered temporary actions 14:12:16 ... difficult to quantify ... 14:12:54 q? 14:12:58 ack mahda-noura 14:13:10 I think she said temporal and not temporary? 14:13:31 SK: Koster is missing today.. we should continue the discussion in TD call 14:13:31 temporal actions in automated planning 14:13:56 SUBTOPIC: Canonicalization 14:14:17 SK: required for signing 14:14:44