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09:09:49 <fantasai> scribenick: fantasai
09:09:49 <fantasai> present+
09:09:49 <dbaron> Present+
09:09:49 <fantasai> fserb: Thanks for coming to session
09:09:49 <mrobinson> mrobinson has joined #vector-graphics
09:09:49 <fantasai> ... This started as discussion at CSSWG F2F
09:09:49 <fantasai> ... decided to move to TPAC, more interest in talking
09:09:49 <ccameron> ccameron has joined #vector-graphics
09:09:49 <fantasai> ... so I will give a summary of what I presented, then want to hear from ppl
09:09:49 <satakagi> satakagi has joined #vector-graphics
09:09:49 <fantasai> ... I have a doc I presented
09:09:49 <satakagi> present+
09:09:58 <fserb> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mMdmuXMUamXtNtiPgzj6Jg5XDmFshkiXNYqg-W2jzLI/edit
09:09:58 <fantasai> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2023Jul/att-0001/Modern_Web_Vector_Graphics.pdf
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09:10:04 <fantasai> fserb: What we tried to explore was improving vector graphics use cases on the Web
09:10:08 <mitch11> present+
09:10:09 <fantasai> ... discuss expressiveness that ppl struggle with
09:10:16 <fantasai> ... trying to look at the landscape and see the direction
09:10:27 <fantasai> [shows example under Responsive Vector Graphics]
09:10:45 <fantasai> fserb: We have vector support in SVG, we have hacked shapes in CSS e.g. triangles and circles
09:11:28 <fantasai> ... but no way to support responsive graphics, things that stretch properly
09:11:28 <fantasai> [example of a thumbs up hand -- stretched everything is distorted, responsive the arm is lengthened but hand still intact]
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09:11:28 <myles> present+ myles
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09:11:32 <fantasai> fserb: Animations. Lots of people these days in mobile space with animated icons
09:11:53 <fantasai> ... local animations
09:11:53 <mrobinson> present+
09:11:58 <fantasai> ... there are a few solutions like Loti and Rive (sp?)
09:12:13 <fantasai> ... they depend on runtimes, and have lots of compat issues
09:12:19 <fantasai> fserb: One big issue is interactive UI elements
09:12:27 <fantasai> ... expectation these days that started with mobile but definitely now on desktop
09:12:33 <fantasai> ... of having motion as part of the UX
09:12:45 <fantasai> ... ppl expect to express certain things, interactions, with motions
09:12:49 <fantasai> ... want to do these on the Web
09:13:11 <fantasai> ... A lot of hacking where people try to stretch what's possible
09:13:22 <fantasai> fserb: Another use case is parametric shapes, the squircle problem
09:13:34 <fantasai> ... being able to have some basic shapes on the page that you want to interact with
09:13:51 <fantasai> ... can do SVG for a specific use case, but complicated to do this in a way that's reproduceable, doens't involve doing math each time
09:14:00 <fantasai> ... access to shapes, doing naturally, is something ppl trying to do
09:14:18 <fantasai> fserb: I described a bit after that some of the issues people have
09:14:29 <fantasai> ... talked about runtime, trying to integrate SVG and CSS
09:14:42 <fantasai> ... we know about CSS support of SVG as bg images and border image, but what are the limitations
09:14:53 <fantasai> ... and also ppl trying to stretch SVG/animations for UI
09:15:12 <fantasai> ... e.g. trying to use simple animations for e.g line dashing
09:15:36 <fantasai> ... to synthesize feeling of line drawing
09:15:45 <fantasai> ... all kinds of interesting hacks that kinda work but kinda break things
09:15:54 <fantasai> ... things end up flimsy, easy to break
09:16:21 <fantasai> fserb: So this is a summary of the problem
09:16:26 <fantasai> s/problem/problems
09:16:36 <fantasai> fserb: Question I brought up to conversation was, what can we do that's better?
09:16:40 <fantasai> ... which directions could we look into?
09:16:50 <fantasai> ... one thing we talked about, could vector graphics be better integrated with CSS?
09:16:59 <fantasai> ... can we make parameters come from CSS to SVG?
09:17:11 <fantasai> ... could usage of vector graphics be more friendly to building web pages
09:17:23 <fantasai> ... One question was, is paintworklet be a solution? should we not look into vector formats?
09:17:30 <fantasai> ... what are the limitations of SVG that prevents advanced use cases?
09:17:48 <fantasai> ... e.g. path data of SVG has string representation, but doesn't allow for any type of responsiveness we're talking about
09:18:01 <fantasai> ... any type of parameterization from CSS or animation
09:18:20 <fantasai> ... There has been in the past some standards for animated SVG, but limited to CSS things like colors, not paths
09:18:43 <fantasai> fserb: People trying different vector formats on different platforms. Complicated space.
09:18:55 <fantasai> ... Text is a big challenve
09:19:00 <fantasai> ... usually they give up on text
09:19:20 <fantasai> ... As things are simpler, become more cross-patform
09:19:51 <fantasai> fserb: As discussed last time, it feels better to incrementally improve things, but what can we improve?
09:20:08 <fantasai> ... Let's talk about it
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09:20:16 <fantasai> ... what's feasible? what can we do?
09:20:49 <noamr_> q?
09:20:56 <noamr_> q+
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09:21:23 <fantasai> noamr_: I think going forward incrementally has been working to an extent
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09:21:39 <fantasai> ... a lot of things from vector graphics have been adopted into CSS, e.g. border-radius and clip-path
09:22:05 <fantasai> ... we need a very strong motivation to jump from this into something more complicated like embedding <length-percentage> into SVG
09:22:07 <fantasai> ... you need a strong motivation
09:22:19 <fantasai> ... Two things I was trying to push for while working for Wikipedia
09:22:32 <fantasai> ... one is a <shape> element which is responsive with <length-percentage>
09:22:40 <fantasai> ... think about putting SVG into CSS rather than the other way around
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09:22:55 <fantasai> ... consistent conceptually with what arc, curve is. use same terminology and mental model, but speaking in CSS terms
09:23:11 <fantasai> ... but wasn't able to champion other than drafting a theoretical spec
09:23:11 <chrisl> rrsagent, here
09:23:11 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-vector-graphics-irc#T09-23-11-1
09:23:52 <fantasai> noamr_: other thing is, it's hard to do e.g. clip-path is too limited. Can't do borders that follow the cli-path
09:23:54 <fantasai> ... and it clips out all the effects like blur
09:24:10 <fantasai> ... just trying to do a balloon in Wikipedia, couldn't do it
09:24:16 <fantasai> ... just trying to take this conversation to be more simple
09:24:21 <chrisl> s/cli-/clip-
09:24:24 <fantasai> ... there are proposals and things that speak about it in the practical sense
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09:25:11 <ydaniv> q+
09:25:28 <chrisl> ack fantasai
09:25:36 <dbaron> Scribe+
09:25:38 <emilio> scribenick: emilio
09:25:42 <fantasai> fantasai: There's a couple things obvious to do
09:25:46 <noamr_> The shape() function: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-shapes-2/#shape-function
09:25:58 <fantasai> ... one of them is being able to define the visual shape of a box as a type of path
09:26:12 <emilio> ... I think we should be able to define the visual shape of a box as a type of path
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09:26:37 <emilio> ... we should give that dedicated syntax because it's pretty common one. That'd take care of clipping and also have the border take care of the path?
09:26:49 <emilio> ... I think one tricky thing is having different borders on each side.
09:27:09 <emilio> ... on the flip side we do need responsive svg images or some kind of vector format that is responsive
09:27:16 <noamr_> clip-path with borders/filters: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5881
09:27:18 <emilio> ... but we should not try to put all of svg into css
09:27:22 <lea> present+
09:27:29 <emilio> ... we should bring some of the responsiveness concepts from css to svg
09:27:35 <chrisl> present+
09:28:08 <mitch11> q+
09:28:08 <emilio> ... introducing a divergence between pixel lengths and user coordinats would be a way to differentiate
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09:28:45 <noamr_> present+
09:29:06 <fantasai> ydaniv: Going beyond length values, going further wrt responsiveness
09:29:22 <fantasai> ... there's a lot of stuff that's already in HTML that didn't make its way back to SVG
09:29:30 <fantasai> ... tons of stuff, like text rendering and i18n
09:29:39 <fantasai> ... on the other hand, you can't ignore that SVG a huge ecosystem
09:29:46 <fserb> q+
09:29:46 <fantasai> ... from stuff that you create offline and you can use everywhere
09:29:55 <fantasai> ... so there's a huge amount of stuff that needs to go back into SVG
09:30:01 <fantasai> ... and no way to drop SVG on the way
09:30:27 <fantasai> ... but in order to use responsive images, i18n, a11y [missed]
09:30:34 <fantasai> myles: Naive question, has SVGWG met in the past year?
09:30:41 <fantasai> ChrisL: SVGWG is dead and has been for 4-5 years
09:30:55 <fantasai> ... nothing has happened, even when it had a charter
09:30:57 <ydaniv> present+
09:31:09 <fantasai> ... it's just been a tiny group, but without browser vendors
09:31:24 <fantasai> ... even if they make decisions, they are not able to make progress
09:31:36 <fantasai> nicole: Have we been getting bugs on SVG?
09:31:50 <fantasai> ... if there's a community unsatisfied with current state of affairs, usually they're bugging us
09:31:56 <fantasai> myles: Seems the community in this room is unsatisfied
09:31:59 <fantasai> nicole: I meant developers
09:32:24 <fantasai> ydaniv (?): Now that something's happening in WebKit, because working on new engine...
09:32:42 <fantasai> ... merging with HTLM engine, can solve tons of problems. foreignObject, text issues, etc.
09:32:50 <fantasai> nicole: will you propose for Interop?
09:33:02 <fantasai> ydaniv: I tried proposing SVG and Math for investigation, but was dropped
09:33:17 <fantasai> ... suggestion that came up today was maybe more specific issues
09:33:33 <fantasai> ... my previous suggestion was maybe get ??
09:33:40 <lea> q?
09:33:42 <lea> q+
09:33:43 <fantasai> ... there was no priority
09:34:08 <fantasai> ... maybe we can make it a focus for Interop
09:34:13 <fantasai> ... or maybe the new engine will bring focus
09:34:32 <fantasai> mitch11: Mitchell Evan, I work in a11y area
09:34:39 <fantasai> ... I see a couple things exciting here and helpful for a11y
09:34:46 <fantasai> ... particularly responsive vector graphics
09:35:00 <fantasai> ... Responsiveness has been great for making browser zoom work nicely
09:35:03 <fantasai> ... remaining problems with graphics
09:35:11 <fantasai> ... enlarging a page, graphics become smaller
09:35:15 <fantasai> ... a lot to improve here
09:35:29 <fantasai> ... collaboration through APA WG
09:35:37 <fantasai> ... let's solve problems together
09:35:44 <fantasai> ... unsure how to phrase request, how do we continue
09:35:58 <fantasai> ... I could try to offer use cases that would be relevant to this
09:36:12 <fantasai> ... who would I talk to? apparently not SVGWG
09:36:24 <fantasai> [exchange info with fserb]
09:37:01 <fantasai> fserb: Wrt incremental improvement of SVG vs new structure
09:37:04 <fantasai> ... completely agree with this
09:37:09 <fantasai> ... don't want to bootstrap a new ecosystem
09:37:11 <fantasai> ... don't want to go there
09:37:18 <fantasai> ... one issue that was brough up about that
09:37:28 <fantasai> ... if trying to solve things like responsiveness, have to do work in parameterizing paths
09:37:39 <fantasai> ... could it be that the solution diverges so much from what SVG
09:37:45 <fantasai> ... that you can't use existing tools?
09:37:48 <noamr_> q+
09:37:53 <fantasai> ... if you change how path works, aren't you breaking the ecosystem?
09:38:04 <fantasai> ... this is the type of points that ppl brought up wrt starting something new
09:38:10 <fantasai> ... would be good to hear on that
09:38:16 <fantasai> fserb: second thing is wrt SVGWG
09:38:45 <fantasai> ... I wonder if, instead of merging with CSSWG (though not opposed), if we could meet again as SVGWG with a particular direction like this
09:38:52 <fantasai> ... e.g. can we solve parameterized paths
09:39:02 <fantasai> ... maybe that will be a way to engergize browser engagement
09:39:44 <fantasai> dbaron: From fserb's list of use cases, there's a list of "features", things that could be built that could address those use cases that are reasonably clear
09:39:52 <fantasai> ... one big one does seem to be parameterization of paths
09:39:57 <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/TR/SVGParamPrimer/ , https://tabatkins.github.io/specs/svg-params/
09:40:12 <fantasai> ... one of the other pieces was passing parameters into SVG
09:40:17 <fantasai> ... these are two of the proposals that came up before
09:40:21 <fantasai> ... might not be a complete list
09:40:29 <fantasai> ... having a plan for some work that starts fro ma set of proposals
09:41:00 <fantasai> s/fro ma/from a/
09:41:00 <fantasai> ... not necessarily complete
09:41:00 <Domenic> +1 to fserb's suggestion of concrete proposals. I suspect targeted proposals that eventually become spec patches with web platform tests would get browser engagement. At some point the spec may collapse under the mountain of tech debt, but until then... :)
09:41:00 <myles> +1 to dbaron
09:41:00 <fantasai> ... but some level of sketched out on the table could be a way to get people interested
09:41:02 <fantasai> [nodding heads]
09:41:06 <chrisl> q?
09:41:10 <fantasai> myles: Totally agree, and there's an example of parameterization in SVG fonts
09:41:17 <fantasai> ... the tech exists (though you may not want to copy it)
09:41:33 <myles> s/in SVG fonts/in OpenType fonts
09:41:34 <fantasai> lea: Wanted to reply to nicole's point about bug reports about SVG
09:41:39 <myles> s/in SVG fonts/in OpenType fonts/
09:41:43 <fantasai> ... although SVG is used widely in Web, but very low level
09:41:51 <fantasai> ... so few devs write SVG directly, might be why few bug reports
09:42:34 <fantasai> ... also tool authors are unlikely to file bugs that are about shortcomings rather than browser bugs
09:43:09 <fantasai> noamr_: There's literally a proposal for parameterized paths in CSS Shapes 2
09:43:09 <fantasai> ... confused why we need ot add
09:43:09 <fantasai> ... how about discussing existing proposals
09:43:11 <fantasai> noamr_: What's missing isn't playing with WGs. What we need is implementer interest.
09:43:20 <fantasai> ... we need to convince champions in browser teams to prioritize it
09:43:23 <fantasai> ... and champion within WG
09:43:27 <fantasai> ... until that happens, it's all talk
09:43:31 <fantasai> ... once it happens, it can be in any WG
09:43:42 <fantasai> ... if there's enough talking about it in order to do it
09:43:50 <fantasai> ... then doesn't matter if we revive in SVGWG or do it in WHATWG
09:44:13 <fantasai> noamr_: Wrt tools, we're talkin about scalaable vector graphics turn into responsive vector graphics
09:44:13 <fantasai> ... you can't use the same tools
09:44:16 <lea> q?
09:44:17 <fantasai> ... once we have more maturity in CSS
09:44:26 <fantasai> ... we can have tools that convert scalable to responsive
09:44:32 <fantasai> ... e.g. conveying leng-percentage
09:44:45 <fantasai> ... can't, as an after-effect, say SVG is RVG
09:44:50 <fantasai> ... it's not going to be a good idea to do that, imho
09:44:54 <fantasai> ... SVG is scalable, not responsive
09:44:59 <nicole> Q+
09:45:02 <fantasai> ... and then converstion to something responsive that's web thing
09:45:16 <fserb> q+
09:45:45 <emilio> fantasai: I agree #1 thing is getting people interested
09:45:55 <emilio> ... seems clear there's some interest from the people in this group
09:46:26 <myles> q+
09:46:30 <emilio> ... there are some issues. First that there's thing we want to add. Second is that SVG implementations are not at the level of fidelity we want
09:46:42 <fserb> q-
09:46:44 <emilio> ... if you want to build on SVG you kinda want to have a good foundation
09:46:50 <emilio> ... not sure what's the strategy for that
09:46:57 <emilio> ... though with a new format you have even more problams
09:47:04 <myles> ack fantasai
09:47:04 <Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to comment on future of SVGWG
09:47:04 <emilio> s/problams/problems
09:47:13 <fantasai> nicole: There are weird things where you can make SVG reponsive, e.g. through inline use
09:47:24 <fantasai> ... SVG behaves really differently depending on how you include it
09:47:37 <fantasai> ... I think as a former author, that was very confusing, that how I include the format changes what I can do with it
09:47:44 <fantasai> ... I think when it comes to cleaning something that's a mess
09:47:52 <fantasai> ... doing something exciting is a great way to get motivation
09:48:34 <fantasai> ... so I think if we have a good picture of what we want to do
09:48:34 <fantasai> ... and allow that to inspire the clean-up work
09:48:34 <Domenic> +1
09:48:34 <fantasai> ... find what needs to be updated based on the features we're excited about shipping
09:48:34 <fantasai> ... I think that would help fserb and I to drum up interest in this project
09:48:48 <lea> +1
09:48:54 <fantasai> myles: Question. You mentioned that there are some libraries that ppl use these effects on the Web today
09:49:15 <fantasai> ... from authors point of view, what features do you expect to be improved by replacing these libraries with in-browser support?
09:49:21 <fantasai> ... what's the user-perceived benefit are you aiming for?
09:49:39 <fantasai> fserb: There are few dimensions that ppl bring up
09:49:42 <fantasai> ... Definitely, performance angle
09:49:48 <fantasai> ... better way to declare some of those things
09:49:55 <fantasai> ... the runtimes have ?? issues
09:50:00 <fantasai> ... which is performance is abysmal
09:50:02 <noamr_> We often these libraries in performance traces
09:50:12 <fantasai> s/abysmal/pretty bad
09:50:19 <fantasai> ... if you want to do all path tracing from scratch, because no other way; but even on Rive side it's an issue
09:50:27 <fantasai> ... if you look at something like Greensock, which is different
09:50:37 <fantasai> ... (Rive and ?? are vector animation runtimes)
09:50:44 <myles> s/??/Lottie/
09:50:53 <fantasai> ... Other type of library solution is like Greensock
09:50:58 <fantasai> ... closer to what we talk about wrt responsive side
09:51:04 <fantasai> ... builds JS tools to allow some control of paths
09:51:14 <fantasai> ... Maybe mistaken, I think Greensock does good job with path animations
09:51:19 <fantasai> ... but not anything about responsiveness?
09:51:33 <fantasai> ... I think integration with rest of HTML and CSS is pretty poor across the board
09:51:51 <fantasai> ... Can authors easily pick shapes or have integration with how they're building CSS designs and teams, able to integrate those things
09:51:54 <fantasai> ... no great solution at this point
09:52:09 <fantasai> ... totally doable if you want to do by yourself with observers in JS trying to rebuild things
09:52:13 <fantasai> ... but not great
09:52:17 <fantasai> ... integration part is not there
09:52:20 <fantasai> ... animation has perf issue
09:52:34 <fantasai> ... responsiveness / UI element side, even the tools don't really bridge the gap properly for good quality
09:52:37 <fantasai> myles: thanks
09:52:51 <fantasai> ydaniv: Wix is doing a lot with animation and SVG
09:53:02 <fantasai> ... so before there was SMIL animations
09:53:09 <fantasai> ... dropped in favor of using CSS animations
09:53:12 <fantasai> ... still very quirky
09:53:23 <fantasai> ... we want to be able to work with CSS Animations, Web Animations, to do whatever you can with CSS/HTML
09:53:26 <fantasai> ... inSVG
09:53:33 <fantasai> ... Lots of attributes you can't control through CSS
09:53:34 <fantasai> ... so you can't animate
09:53:37 <fantasai> ... e.g. d attribute on path
09:53:42 <fantasai> ... maybe supported in Chrome
09:53:52 <fantasai> ... gsock allows you to animate any number of points into any number of other points
09:53:58 <fantasai> ... which is why using gsock for morph
09:54:04 <fantasai> ... so the there are technical issues
09:54:18 <fantasai> ... [missed]
09:54:26 <fantasai> ... have SG and want to animate stuff, lots of quirkiness and bugs
09:54:37 <fantasai> myles: Sounds like you're saying, if we could take the current system we have of animations in SVG
09:54:46 <fantasai> ... and make it work better and work over browsers, it'll be fine
09:54:49 <fantasai> ... you're not looking for a new system
09:55:01 <fantasai> ydaniv: Yes. If it could be composited, accelerated, etc. work with HTML and CSS
09:55:06 <fantasai> ... would be great
09:55:12 <mitch11> q+
09:55:13 <fantasai> myles: Thanks, that was helpful.
09:55:38 <fantasai> fserb: what I got from the room
09:55:48 <fantasai> ... seems we agree there's a space of use cases
09:55:52 <fantasai> ... particular on responsive side
09:55:57 <fantasai> ... that ppl care about, worth looking into
09:56:02 <fantasai> ... I do like some of the proposals that address steps on this
09:56:17 <fantasai> ... e.g. passing parameters
09:56:19 <fantasai> ... I haven't read the whole Shapes 2 proposal
09:56:26 <fantasai> ... but also outside of SVG, pure CSS solution
09:56:53 <fantasai> ... maybe worth mapping some of those piecewise solutions
09:56:57 <fantasai> ... that address use cases
09:57:02 <fantasai> ... and try to map if there are particular use cases
09:57:07 <fantasai> ... one seems to be parameterization of text
09:57:12 <fantasai> ... SVG is not RVG
09:57:24 <fantasai> ... Lea made comment only on text that maybe that's the way to move forward
09:57:29 <fantasai> ... [missed]
09:57:50 <fantasai> ...Main part goes to what nicole said, which is having those use cases that motivate the work may be the way to move forward
09:57:52 <lea> s/Lea made comment only on text that maybe that's the way to move forward/Lea made comment only on text that maybe that's the way to move forward, not sure if ironic or not/
09:57:54 <fantasai> ... even for core SVG itself
09:57:58 <fantasai> ... Saying we care about this space
09:58:02 <fantasai> ... need to move forward on it
09:58:18 <fantasai> ... whatever way we can find to have motivation
09:58:38 <fantasai> ... seems to be a direction that sounds reasonable
09:58:58 <fantasai> ... Also, someone mentioned that parameterizatoin is complicated and hard to achieve
09:59:08 <fantasai> ... maybe trying to bridge those gaps... is it possible to address those cases?
09:59:22 <fantasai> ... but sense is that there's a lot that can be gained by solving these incrementally
09:59:44 <fantasai> fserb: others mentioned use cases and a11y
10:00:03 <fantasai> ... maybe next steps is proposals or drafts that could be reasonably put under umbrella of addressing responsive vectors and animations
10:01:33 <fantasai> fantasai: Might want to clearly scope out the problem, use cases, collect existing proposals
10:01:42 <fantasai> ... and then try to sell the managers on solving this package of problems
10:01:58 <fantasai> fserb: If anyone interested, reach out to me and nicole
10:02:24 <fantasai> mitch11: I would suggest that graphing and charting is a big use case
10:02:29 <fantasai> ... often resorting to canvas today
10:02:36 <fantasai> ... and has solved a lot of domain-specific responsiveness
10:03:06 <fantasai> fserb: thanks, i'll try to move these ideas forward
10:03:11 <fantasai> Session closed.
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10:03:24 <fserb> thanks fantasia for the notes :)
10:03:46 <fserb> fatansai argh
10:03:46 <fantasai> :)
10:03:51 <fserb> why does this always happen to me? I'm sorry
10:03:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-vector-graphics-minutes.html fantasai
10:04:01 <fserb> :)
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