IRC log of tr-design on 2023-09-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:13:49 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-tr-design-irc
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agenda?
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agenda?
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RRSAgent, do not leave
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: Specification Markup and CSS Workshop for Editors and Team Contacts
06:25:47 [tidoust]
Chair: Elika Etemad
06:25:47 [tidoust]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/3
06:25:49 [tidoust]
clear agenda
06:25:51 [tidoust]
agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:26:03 [tidoust]
agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:26:03 [tidoust]
agenda+ Goal of this session
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agenda+ Discussion
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agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-tr-design-irc
15:02:48 [fantasai]
[planning to start 5min late, take your time]
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15:18:32 [caribou]
present+
15:18:55 [fantasai]
-> https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/2021/README
15:21:05 [spectranaut_]
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present+
15:23:30 [johanneswilm]
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15:29:12 [astearns]
(fantasai walks us through the document)
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15:32:04 [astearns]
r12a: unicode code point stuff is not quite complete
15:32:11 [spectranaut_]
can someone share a link that fantasai is shows us?
15:32:20 [astearns]
https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/2021/README
15:32:20 [fantasai]
-> https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/2021/README
15:32:30 [spectranaut_]
thanks!
15:32:54 [fantasai]
<fantasai>the CSS file hasn't been updated onto the server yet to support unicode codepoint markup
15:33:13 [fantasai]
r12a: planning to build in support for expanding out this markup into respec/bikeshed
15:33:52 [jyasskin]
??: I always trip over referencing things in other specs, especially when the same keyword is used across multiple specs. I just use an <a> tag.
15:33:56 [oriol]
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15:34:04 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Bikeshed's autolinking isn't part of the stylesheet.
15:34:10 [astearns]
s/??/khushal/
15:34:30 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Stylesheet is mostly CSS, with a bit of Javascript.
15:35:22 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Respec and Bikeshed do a bunch of processing and spit out an HTML file that uses the stylesheet.
15:36:08 [jyasskin]
... WGs should review their custom styling and see about upstreaming it.
15:36:24 [spectranaut_]
what about all of these tables: https://w3c.github.io/core-aam/#mapping_role_table
15:36:28 [jyasskin]
... Or check if there's already something in the stylesheet to adopt.
15:36:57 [jyasskin]
... We got an issue seeing if we can upstream it.
15:37:14 [jyasskin]
q+
15:38:01 [jyasskin]
jyasskin: There will be a discussion about how to improve things when upstreaming, and that's good.
15:38:36 [jyasskin]
fantasai: We want to align things with the current visual pattern. Or check if it's super-specific and turn it into something that most of our WGs would find useful.
15:39:15 [florian]
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15:39:23 [jyasskin]
fantasai: The blue boxes for properties were originally CSS-only, but we realized they were a structural definition and made them useful for more groups.
15:39:25 [florian]
q+
15:40:17 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: We have these mapping tables (https://w3c.github.io/core-aam/#mapping_role_table) that define a ton of things, with custom CSS. It's annoying because in PR-Preview you don't have custom CSS.
15:40:38 [jyasskin]
fantasai: I think these could use the "dfn" class, or a data table.
15:40:57 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: I tried the data table. It looked wrong. Maybe I'm just used to the current way.
15:41:13 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: Where should we put custom CSS?
15:41:25 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: We have a directory, and PR-Preview doesn't work.
15:41:27 [jyasskin]
q-
15:41:35 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Use colgroup for these.
15:41:52 [jyasskin]
... to identify the first column of headings.
15:42:07 [jyasskin]
q+ to explain PR-Preview and bikeshed boilerplate.
15:42:33 [jyasskin]
fantasai: <explains how the stylesheet uses table markup>
15:43:19 [jyasskin]
fantasai: I put custom CSS into an external stylesheet or in the <head>
15:43:27 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: We have a bunch of specs that use the same format.
15:43:36 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Then external, or consider class=def
15:43:50 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: I like class=def
15:44:13 [astearns]
ack florian
15:44:46 [florian]
example of test boxes can be found in this spec for instance https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#text-transform-property
15:44:51 [jyasskin]
florian: I worked with Tab to include a feature that adds test annotation boxes.
15:45:20 [jyasskin]
... On the right, you have little >TESTS boxes. The styling isn't in tr-design; it's injected in every spec.
15:45:26 [jyasskin]
fantasai: It makes sense to upstream it.
15:45:59 [jyasskin]
jyasskin: Upstream it.
15:45:59 [astearns]
ack jyasskin
15:45:59 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to explain PR-Preview and bikeshed boilerplate.
15:48:04 [jyasskin]
jyasskin: <explains how PR-Preview loses adjacent files and isn't really maintained. Suggests using bikeshed boilerplate to include group-wide CSS.>
15:48:04 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: I think we use Respec.
15:48:04 [jyasskin]
jyasskin: I can't help you then. ;)
15:48:08 [jyasskin]
spectranaut_: What's the difference?
15:48:29 [jyasskin]
[group]: Discusses several ways Respec and Bikeshed differ, and shows what Bikeshed source looks like.
15:48:37 [fantasai]
-> https://speced.github.io/bikeshed/
15:48:53 [fantasai]
-> https://respec.org/docs/
15:49:38 [jyasskin]
Marcelo: I was noticing the green and red dots. Does that come from CSS?
15:49:38 [florian]
Documentation for that feature in bikeshed: https://speced.github.io/bikeshed/#testing
15:50:09 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Bikeshed is maybe using Javascript to generate that. Bikeshed source is a <wpt> element.
15:50:09 [jyasskin]
Marcelo: Do they consider colorblindness?
15:51:01 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Tab themself is colorblind, so hmm.
15:51:36 [jyasskin]
???: Events? For attribute values, we have quotations marks for the different possible values.
15:51:45 [astearns]
s/???/jwilm/
15:51:47 [jyasskin]
... I can't see that in the stylesheet overview page. Is it ok to use that style?
15:51:58 [astearns]
s/jwilm/johanneswilm/
15:52:00 [jyasskin]
... I'm just using the previous practice.
15:52:15 [jyasskin]
fantasai: This stylesheet doesn't provide anything for inline code.
15:52:31 [jyasskin]
... Specs want to distinguish a lot of things for inline code, and there wasn't a strong enough pattern.
15:52:55 [jyasskin]
... Specs with respec and bikeshed use consistent style because they generate specialized markup.
15:53:16 [jyasskin]
... Bikeshed generates something specific for ''css-markup''.
15:53:31 [jyasskin]
... 'single-quoted propertes' generate something a bit different.
15:53:41 [jyasskin]
... It's not pulled up into the W3C-wide stylesheet.
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15:53:52 [jyasskin]
... We could do that, but we'll need to do a survey of all the code patterns.
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15:55:48 [jyasskin]
johanneswilm: I'm not sure about this, but we use different styling in different specs in the same WG. Is there a spec we should follow? We'd like to copy other WGs.
15:56:08 [jyasskin]
fantasai: If you have some styling that another group is using, and they're defining a significantly different technology, we should upstream that concept to the main stylesheet.
15:56:21 [jyasskin]
... If it's specific to that technology, then maybe use a shared stylesheet.
15:56:32 [jyasskin]
... If it's a broad enough category, we should upstream it.
15:56:48 [jyasskin]
... CSS had default.css before a bunch of it got upstreamed.
15:57:28 [jyasskin]
... It's a bit of a judgement call. Do you have particular examples?
15:58:01 [jyasskin]
johanneswilm: We and the editing WG don't have a consistent style. But we could try to copy another WG that's consistent.
15:58:02 [jyasskin]
q+
15:58:16 [fantasai]
scribe+
15:58:24 [astearns]
ack jyasskin
15:58:26 [fantasai]
jyasskin: What are you actually styling?
15:58:34 [jyasskin]
johanneswilm: No actual styles.
15:58:34 [caribou]
q+
15:58:34 [fantasai]
... most of the specs I write don't need that much custom stuff
15:58:46 [jyasskin]
s/.../jyasskin:
15:58:47 [astearns]
ack caribou
15:59:15 [jyasskin]
Carine: We were using grammars, and we had to style productions. That could happen in another group.
15:59:18 [astearns]
bikeshed railroad diagrams?
15:59:22 [jyasskin]
s/Carine/caribou/
15:59:49 [jyasskin]
caribou: The problem is that when there are changes to the main CSS, it might affect the group's styling.
15:59:59 [jyasskin]
caribou: So you have to restrict the group's styling to the minimum.
16:00:09 [jyasskin]
fantasai: We had some similar styling.
16:00:10 [spectranaut_]
thanks for this useful and productive session @fantasai :) https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/pull/193
16:00:51 [jyasskin]
caribou: I'd love to have special styling for the diff markers. You have <ins> and <del>, but I'm not sure we use that for WebRTC for marking REC candidate changes. Big green and red boxes.
16:01:03 [johanneswilm]
https://github.com/w3c/input-events/blob/gh-pages/index.html <-- We don't seem to be using any respec shortcodes for <code>"value"</code>. It's just directly like that in our source code.
16:01:05 [jyasskin]
fantasai: That's probably the WG styling.
16:01:48 [jyasskin]
caribou: So we have some trouble between the main and WG styling, because the colors conflict.
16:01:48 [jyasskin]
fantasai: Let's look over that.
16:02:19 [jyasskin]
... We still don't have good practices for the amendments. In a way that's reasonably easy.
16:02:28 [jyasskin]
... The spec mainly just supports <ins> and <del>. They have very flexible markup models, so you can wrap lots of things in them.
16:02:59 [jyasskin]
fantasai: <shows how the candidate corrections work, with buttons that enable/disable embedded <ins> and <del>s.>
16:03:24 [jyasskin]
... Marking things up so that JS works is a bit of extra work. Because you have to associate the <ins> and <del>s with the annotation.
16:03:46 [jyasskin]
caribou: We're using that, with 3 toggles. But our boxes follow the candidate correction boxes. Because our changes are much bigger.
16:03:53 [jyasskin]
... 20-30 lines changed.
16:04:15 [jyasskin]
florian: I can give an example of a spec with a box that does that, and it's not too bad.
16:04:35 [florian]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-contain-1/#c3
16:05:36 [jyasskin]
florian: In CSS contain, there are some proposed corrections, some of which are small and use <ins> and <del> But another replaces a whole a paragraph. Then it's just a proposed correction box that describes the text to insert. You have to make sure the change is understandable, but you don't have to have inline <ins> and <del> all over the place.
16:06:07 [jyasskin]
fantasai: The main requirement in the Process is that you can understand what text is there.
16:06:48 [jyasskin]
florian: Another example in section 2 has the change outside the Correction box, but the buttons still work.
16:07:39 [jyasskin]
florian: Proposed Correction 2 is a bigger change.
16:08:05 [jyasskin]
caribou: I'd like a list of the proposed corrections for the recommendation.
16:08:24 [jyasskin]
florian: In this one, I made an index myself, but a bikeshed feature would be better.
16:08:36 [jyasskin]
caribou: Is it possible to have that as part of the table of contents?
16:09:04 [astearns]
+1 to putting it at the top
16:09:07 [jyasskin]
fantasai: In the Status of this Document, we have a link to proposed corrections.
16:09:18 [fantasai]
s/have/could have/
16:09:31 [fantasai]
s/corrections/corrections index from the place where it mentions them already/
16:10:09 [fantasai]
-> https://github.com/w3c/tr-design/issues
16:10:17 [caribou]
https://www.w3.org/TR/webrtc/#dom-rtcrtpencodingparameters
16:10:36 [jyasskin]
fantasai: We work on the TR spec stylesheets on https://github.com/w3c/tr-design/issues
16:10:44 [jyasskin]
... It's a side project and not extremely responsive.
16:11:10 [fantasai]
... can ping me by email if something needs attention though
16:11:55 [jyasskin]
fantasai: From an auditing perspective, look at what custom style you're using, and see if that should be replaced from something from the standard, or upstreamed, or stay.
16:12:18 [astearns]
audit checklist https://github.com/w3c/tr-design/issues/327
16:25:52 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:25:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-tr-design-minutes.html tidoust
16:26:19 [caribou]
thx tidoust
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RRSagent, bye
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RRSAgent, make logs public
21:09:23 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, bye
21:09:23 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items