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06:19:12 <tidoust> agenda?
06:25:34 <tidoust> agenda?
06:25:46 <tidoust> RRSAgent, do not leave
06:25:46 <tidoust> RRSAgent, make logs public
06:25:47 <tidoust> Meeting: Specification Markup and CSS Workshop for Editors and Team Contacts
06:25:47 <tidoust> Chair: Elika Etemad
06:25:47 <tidoust> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/3
06:25:49 <tidoust> clear agenda
06:25:51 <tidoust> agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:26:03 <tidoust> agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:26:03 <tidoust> agenda+ Goal of this session
06:26:05 <tidoust> agenda+ Discussion
06:26:07 <tidoust> agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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15:02:48 <fantasai> [planning to start 5min late, take your time]
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15:18:32 <caribou> present+
15:18:55 <fantasai> -> https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/2021/README
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15:21:10 <jyasskin> present+
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15:29:12 <astearns> (fantasai walks us through the document)
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15:32:04 <astearns> r12a: unicode code point stuff is not quite complete
15:32:11 <spectranaut_> can someone share a link that fantasai is shows us?
15:32:20 <astearns> https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/2021/README
15:32:20 <fantasai> -> https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/2021/README
15:32:30 <spectranaut_> thanks!
15:32:54 <fantasai> <fantasai>the CSS file hasn't been updated onto the server yet to support unicode codepoint markup
15:33:13 <fantasai> r12a: planning to build in support for expanding out this markup into respec/bikeshed
15:33:52 <jyasskin> ??: I always trip over referencing things in other specs, especially when the same keyword is used across multiple specs. I just use an <a> tag.
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15:34:04 <jyasskin> fantasai: Bikeshed's autolinking isn't part of the stylesheet.
15:34:10 <astearns> s/??/khushal/
15:34:30 <jyasskin> fantasai: Stylesheet is mostly CSS, with a bit of Javascript.
15:35:22 <jyasskin> fantasai: Respec and Bikeshed do a bunch of processing and spit out an HTML file that uses the stylesheet.
15:36:08 <jyasskin> ... WGs should review their custom styling and see about upstreaming it.
15:36:24 <spectranaut_> what about all of these tables: https://w3c.github.io/core-aam/#mapping_role_table
15:36:28 <jyasskin> ... Or check if there's already something in the stylesheet to adopt.
15:36:57 <jyasskin> ... We got an issue seeing if we can upstream it.
15:37:14 <jyasskin> q+
15:38:01 <jyasskin> jyasskin: There will be a discussion about how to improve things when upstreaming, and that's good.
15:38:36 <jyasskin> fantasai: We want to align things with the current visual pattern. Or check if it's super-specific and turn it into something that most of our WGs would find useful.
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15:39:23 <jyasskin> fantasai: The blue boxes for properties were originally CSS-only, but we realized they were a structural definition and made them useful for more groups.
15:39:25 <florian> q+
15:40:17 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: We have these mapping tables (https://w3c.github.io/core-aam/#mapping_role_table) that define a ton of things, with custom CSS. It's annoying because in PR-Preview you don't have custom CSS.
15:40:38 <jyasskin> fantasai: I think these could use the "dfn" class, or a data table.
15:40:57 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: I tried the data table. It looked wrong. Maybe I'm just used to the current way.
15:41:13 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: Where should we put custom CSS?
15:41:25 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: We have a directory, and PR-Preview doesn't work.
15:41:27 <jyasskin> q-
15:41:35 <jyasskin> fantasai: Use colgroup for these.
15:41:52 <jyasskin> ... to identify the first column of headings.
15:42:07 <jyasskin> q+ to explain PR-Preview and bikeshed boilerplate.
15:42:33 <jyasskin> fantasai: <explains how the stylesheet uses table markup>
15:43:19 <jyasskin> fantasai: I put custom CSS into an external stylesheet or in the <head>
15:43:27 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: We have a bunch of specs that use the same format.
15:43:36 <jyasskin> fantasai: Then external, or consider class=def
15:43:50 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: I like class=def
15:44:13 <astearns> ack florian
15:44:46 <florian> example of test boxes can be found in this spec for instance https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-3/#text-transform-property
15:44:51 <jyasskin> florian: I worked with Tab to include a feature that adds test annotation boxes.
15:45:20 <jyasskin> ... On the right, you have little >TESTS boxes. The styling isn't in tr-design; it's injected in every spec.
15:45:26 <jyasskin> fantasai: It makes sense to upstream it.
15:45:59 <jyasskin> jyasskin: Upstream it.
15:45:59 <astearns> ack jyasskin
15:45:59 <Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to explain PR-Preview and bikeshed boilerplate.
15:48:04 <jyasskin> jyasskin: <explains how PR-Preview loses adjacent files and isn't really maintained. Suggests using bikeshed boilerplate to include group-wide CSS.>
15:48:04 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: I think we use Respec.
15:48:04 <jyasskin> jyasskin: I can't help you then. ;)
15:48:08 <jyasskin> spectranaut_: What's the difference?
15:48:29 <jyasskin> [group]: Discusses several ways Respec and Bikeshed differ, and shows what Bikeshed source looks like.
15:48:37 <fantasai> -> https://speced.github.io/bikeshed/
15:48:53 <fantasai> -> https://respec.org/docs/
15:49:38 <jyasskin> Marcelo: I was noticing the green and red dots. Does that come from CSS?
15:49:38 <florian> Documentation for that feature in bikeshed: https://speced.github.io/bikeshed/#testing
15:50:09 <jyasskin> fantasai: Bikeshed is maybe using Javascript to generate that. Bikeshed source is a <wpt> element.
15:50:09 <jyasskin> Marcelo: Do they consider colorblindness?
15:51:01 <jyasskin> fantasai: Tab themself is colorblind, so hmm.
15:51:36 <jyasskin> ???: Events? For attribute values, we have quotations marks for the different possible values.
15:51:45 <astearns> s/???/jwilm/
15:51:47 <jyasskin> ... I can't see that in the stylesheet overview page. Is it ok to use that style?
15:51:58 <astearns> s/jwilm/johanneswilm/
15:52:00 <jyasskin> ... I'm just using the previous practice.
15:52:15 <jyasskin> fantasai: This stylesheet doesn't provide anything for inline code.
15:52:31 <jyasskin> ... Specs want to distinguish a lot of things for inline code, and there wasn't a strong enough pattern.
15:52:55 <jyasskin> ... Specs with respec and bikeshed use consistent style because they generate specialized markup.
15:53:16 <jyasskin> ... Bikeshed generates something specific for ''css-markup''.
15:53:31 <jyasskin> ... 'single-quoted propertes' generate something a bit different.
15:53:41 <jyasskin> ... It's not pulled up into the W3C-wide stylesheet.
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15:53:52 <jyasskin> ... We could do that, but we'll need to do a survey of all the code patterns.
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15:55:48 <jyasskin> johanneswilm: I'm not sure about this, but we use different styling in different specs in the same WG. Is there a spec we should follow? We'd like to copy other WGs.
15:56:08 <jyasskin> fantasai: If you have some styling that another group is using, and they're defining a significantly different technology, we should upstream that concept to the main stylesheet.
15:56:21 <jyasskin> ... If it's specific to that technology, then maybe use a shared stylesheet.
15:56:32 <jyasskin> ... If it's a broad enough category, we should upstream it.
15:56:48 <jyasskin> ... CSS had default.css before a bunch of it got upstreamed.
15:57:28 <jyasskin> ... It's a bit of a judgement call. Do you have particular examples?
15:58:01 <jyasskin> johanneswilm: We and the editing WG don't have a consistent style. But we could try to copy another WG that's consistent.
15:58:02 <jyasskin> q+
15:58:16 <fantasai> scribe+
15:58:24 <astearns> ack jyasskin
15:58:26 <fantasai> jyasskin: What are you actually styling?
15:58:34 <jyasskin> johanneswilm: No actual styles.
15:58:34 <caribou> q+
15:58:34 <fantasai> ... most of the specs I write don't need that much custom stuff
15:58:46 <jyasskin> s/.../jyasskin:
15:58:47 <astearns> ack caribou
15:59:15 <jyasskin> Carine: We were using grammars, and we had to style productions.  That could happen in another group.
15:59:18 <astearns> bikeshed railroad diagrams?
15:59:22 <jyasskin> s/Carine/caribou/
15:59:49 <jyasskin> caribou: The problem is that when there are changes to the main CSS, it might affect the group's styling.
15:59:59 <jyasskin> caribou: So you have to restrict the group's styling to the minimum.
16:00:09 <jyasskin> fantasai: We had some similar styling.
16:00:10 <spectranaut_> thanks for this useful and productive session @fantasai :) https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/pull/193
16:00:51 <jyasskin> caribou: I'd love to have special styling for the diff markers. You have <ins> and <del>, but I'm not sure we use that for WebRTC for marking REC candidate changes. Big green and red boxes.
16:01:03 <johanneswilm> https://github.com/w3c/input-events/blob/gh-pages/index.html <-- We don't seem to be using any respec shortcodes for <code>"value"</code>. It's just directly like that in our source code.
16:01:05 <jyasskin> fantasai: That's probably the WG styling.
16:01:48 <jyasskin> caribou: So we have some trouble between the main and WG styling, because the colors conflict.
16:01:48 <jyasskin> fantasai: Let's look over that.
16:02:19 <jyasskin> ... We still don't have good practices for the amendments. In a way that's reasonably easy.
16:02:28 <jyasskin> ... The spec mainly just supports <ins> and <del>. They have very flexible markup models, so you can wrap lots of things in them.
16:02:59 <jyasskin> fantasai: <shows how the candidate corrections work, with buttons that enable/disable embedded <ins> and <del>s.>
16:03:24 <jyasskin> ... Marking things up so that JS works is a bit of extra work. Because you have to associate the <ins> and <del>s with the annotation.
16:03:46 <jyasskin> caribou: We're using that, with 3 toggles. But our boxes follow the candidate correction boxes. Because our changes are much bigger.
16:03:53 <jyasskin> ... 20-30 lines changed.
16:04:15 <jyasskin> florian: I can give an example of a spec with a box that does that, and it's not too bad.
16:04:35 <florian> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-contain-1/#c3
16:05:36 <jyasskin> florian: In CSS contain, there are some proposed corrections, some of which are small and use <ins> and <del> But another replaces a whole a paragraph. Then it's just a proposed correction box that describes the text to insert. You have to make sure the change is understandable, but you don't have to have inline <ins> and <del> all over the place.
16:06:07 <jyasskin> fantasai: The main requirement in the Process is that you can understand what text is there.
16:06:48 <jyasskin> florian: Another example in section 2 has the change outside the Correction box, but the buttons still work.
16:07:39 <jyasskin> florian: Proposed Correction 2 is a bigger change.
16:08:05 <jyasskin> caribou: I'd like a list of the proposed corrections for the recommendation.
16:08:24 <jyasskin> florian: In this one, I made an index myself, but a bikeshed feature would be better.
16:08:36 <jyasskin> caribou: Is it possible to have that as part of the table of contents?
16:09:04 <astearns> +1 to putting it at the top
16:09:07 <jyasskin> fantasai: In the Status of this Document, we have a link to proposed corrections.
16:09:18 <fantasai> s/have/could have/
16:09:31 <fantasai> s/corrections/corrections index from the place where it mentions them already/
16:10:09 <fantasai> -> https://github.com/w3c/tr-design/issues
16:10:17 <caribou> https://www.w3.org/TR/webrtc/#dom-rtcrtpencodingparameters
16:10:36 <jyasskin> fantasai: We work on the TR spec stylesheets on https://github.com/w3c/tr-design/issues
16:10:44 <jyasskin> ... It's a side project and not extremely responsive.
16:11:10 <fantasai> ... can ping me by email if something needs attention though
16:11:55 <jyasskin> fantasai: From an auditing perspective, look at what custom style you're using, and see if that should be replaced from something from the standard, or upstreamed, or stay.
16:12:18 <astearns> audit checklist https://github.com/w3c/tr-design/issues/327
16:25:52 <tidoust> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:25:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-tr-design-minutes.html tidoust
16:26:19 <caribou> thx tidoust
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21:09:03 <tidoust> RRSagent, bye
21:09:15 <tidoust> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:09:23 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
21:09:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items