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06:36:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-irc
06:36:00 <tidoust> RRSAgent, do not leave
06:36:04 <tidoust> RRSAgent, make logs public
06:36:05 <tidoust> Meeting: Accelerating the Web performance by compiling Javascript code to WASM
06:36:05 <tidoust> Chair: Wei Ding, Shi Ling
06:36:06 <tidoust> Agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1skQFGhxvK9F-o9jIkQOAKUziuvPzUigGlRE6InwC3sQ/edit#heading=h.2zye3qyc2qk
06:36:09 <tidoust> clear agenda
06:36:11 <tidoust> agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:36:13 <tidoust> agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:36:15 <tidoust> agenda+ Goal of this session
06:36:19 <tidoust> agenda+ Discussion
06:36:21 <tidoust> agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
06:37:24 <Dingwei> thank you @tidoust
06:37:31 <Dingwei> q+
06:38:40 <Dingwei> ack dingwei
07:08:35 <Dingwei> Dingwei has joined #js2wasm
07:08:53 <Dingwei> q?
07:11:16 <Roy> Roy has joined #js2wasm
07:11:38 <Roy> agenda?
07:14:01 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
07:14:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html Roy
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07:24:10 <xueyuan> zakim, agenda?
07:24:10 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
07:24:10 <Zakim> 1. Pick a scribe [from tidoust]
07:24:10 <Zakim> 2. Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy [from tidoust]
07:24:10 <Zakim> 3. Goal of this session [from tidoust]
07:24:10 <Zakim> 4. Discussion [from tidoust]
07:24:10 <Zakim> 5. Next steps / where discussion continues [from tidoust]
07:24:10 <Roy> Roy has joined #js2wasm
07:24:10 <Dingwei> present+
07:25:46 <Roy> present+
07:26:35 <Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU> present+
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07:28:42 <xfq_> scribe+ xfq
07:28:49 <xfq_> scribe+ xfq_
07:29:15 <martin_alvarez> present+
07:29:17 <xfq_> rrsagent, make log public
07:29:23 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
07:29:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html xfq_
07:29:31 <xfq_> present+
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07:30:08 <xfq_> present+ xueyuan
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07:32:15 <xfq> Dingwei: welcome
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07:32:15 <Roy> agenda?
07:32:49 <xfq> ... is there any objections to recording this session?
07:32:49 <xfq> [silence]
07:32:49 <xfq> Dingwei: we have 2 presentations
07:32:49 <xfq> ... and about 10 minutes Q&A
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07:33:03 <xfq> ... health rules: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/health.html
07:33:52 <xfq> ... slides are in https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/22#issuecomment-1717073937
07:33:52 <xfq> ... my colleague Ling Shi will present
07:34:03 <angel_> present+
07:34:08 <xfq> ling: thanks for joining us
07:34:18 <xfq> ... my topic is 'web for apps'
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07:34:36 <angel_> present+ Roy, xiaoqian, fuqiao, Li Lin, MartinA, Huaqi Shan,
07:34:58 <xfq> ... when preparing this topic, I read the 7 Predictions For The Web
07:35:08 <xfq> https://fagnerbrack.com/i-made-7-predictions-for-the-web-for-the-next-5-years-d750d93b1b5a
07:35:28 <xfq> ... James Bankoski : 85% of All Apps use some level of web tech
07:35:50 <xfq> ... Meituan is famous in China
07:35:57 <xiaoqian> xiaoqian has joined #js2wasm
07:36:06 <xfq> ... the miniapp and native app versions have almost the same interface
07:36:24 <angel_> Present+ Ding Wei, SHi Lin
07:36:29 <xfq> ... let's review the history of building apps using frameworks
07:36:32 <xiaoqian> present+
07:36:57 <xfq> ... phonegap, cordorva etc.
07:37:32 <xfq> ... frameworks like react-native, weex, and hippy are system UI frameworks
07:37:50 <xfq> ... there are also self-rendering frameworks like Flutter
07:38:03 <xfq> s/hippy/Hippy
07:38:25 <xfq> ling: let's look at the web dev stack using the front-end perspective
07:38:53 <xfq> ... application framework can only use limited DOM APIs
07:39:19 <xfq> ... there's still no good optimization methods for application development
07:39:31 <xfq> ... WASM is better, but rarely used
07:39:48 <xfq> ... currently mainly used for compiled code like C++
07:40:16 <angel_> Present+ Chunming
07:40:17 <xfq> ... JS continue to be the language for web dev
07:40:41 <angel_> Present+ Zhao Lei
07:40:42 <chunming> chunming has joined #js2wasm
07:40:44 <xfq> ... here's an ideal Web Application Development Model we would like to discuss
07:41:06 <xfq> ... even the system API calls are based on wasm
07:41:08 <angel_> Present+ Xiaoshua Shi
07:41:29 <xfq> ... of course, there are still many problems we need to solve to achieve such a model
07:41:38 <xfq> ... some of them are already being discussed
07:42:05 <xfq> ... how to compile JS to wasm?
07:42:19 <xfq> ... there are still many problems that need to be studied and discussed
07:42:23 <chunming> present+
07:42:29 <JaseW> present+
07:42:32 <xfq> Dingwei: we have the next speaker
07:42:39 <xfq> ... who will introduce the solution
07:42:42 <xfq> ... and present online
07:42:48 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: thanks Dingwei
07:43:04 <xfq> ... I'm Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU from Beihang University
07:43:25 <xfq> ... I'll present JWST—— A JavaScript-to- WebAssembly Static Translator
07:43:55 <xfq> ... we think that ait is useful to build a static compiler to compile from js to wasm
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07:44:24 <xfq> [show code example]
07:44:44 <christianliebel> present+
07:44:51 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: the example is simple, some compilers can statically analyze the code
07:45:06 <xfq> ... in JS different types could be operating together
07:45:24 <xfq> ... no compilers can know each type and generate the appropriate type
07:45:44 <xfq> [Demonstration of dynamic types]
07:45:49 <xfq> [Demonstration of dynamic loading]
07:46:12 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: for static compiler, the JS features of dynamic loading are key challenges
07:46:25 <xfq> ... now I would like to introduce JWST
07:46:45 <xfq> ... it is a static compiler for compiling JavaScript to WASM and native code
07:46:59 <xfq> ... it uses QuickJS bytecode as input, and outputs LLVM IR
07:47:15 <xfq> ... it got the similar pass rate as QuickJS for ECMA test262
07:47:29 <xfq> ... JWST is about 30% and 50% faster than node.js when running SunSpider
07:47:36 <xfq> [show WASM Sample Code]
07:47:56 <xfq> [WASM vs. Java Bytecode]
07:48:06 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: wasm and Java bytecode are different
07:48:13 <xfq> ... Java bytecode is designed for expressing Java programs
07:48:24 <xfq> ... because they have almost the same semantic expression capability
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07:48:36 <tomayac> present+
07:48:41 <xfq> ... WASM is designed for working with JavaScript
07:48:50 <xfq> ... For instance, WASM is not a dynamically typed language
07:48:56 <xfq> ... WASM does not have a GC, etc.
07:49:06 <xfq> [Show JWST Compilation Process]
07:49:36 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: all wasm code can be replaced with native code by the compiler
07:49:48 <xfq> [Compilation process demonstration]
07:50:03 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: on the left side it's JS code
07:50:12 <xfq> ... the right side is QuickJS Bytecode
07:50:40 <xfq> ... to solve the problem of dynamic types
07:50:52 <xfq> ... JWST reuses the JSValue data structure of QuickJS
07:51:23 <xfq> ... before each operation the type of the value must be determined
07:51:33 <xfq> [Demonstration of Dynamic Type Compilation Process]
07:51:55 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: here we demonstrate the dynamic type compilation process
07:52:47 <xfq> ... if we already know a and b are integers there's no need to generate any @@ at all
07:53:00 <xfq> [Type Profiling: Type information fusion]
07:53:05 <Dingwei> q?
07:53:10 <xfq> [Type Profiling: Example]
07:53:49 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: the type information is shown on the figure
07:54:38 <xfq> [Mixed running mode of compiled code and QuickJS Interpreter]
07:54:38 <xfq> [Speculative Optimizations of Type Fixing]
07:54:43 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: here's a more complicated mechanics for type fixing
07:55:01 <xfq> ... determine whether the types are correct or not
07:55:29 <xfq> [GC Support]
07:55:49 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: the GC for QuickJS is used in JWST by default
07:55:54 <xfq> [Exception Support]
07:56:10 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: there is no exception table as we know in Java
07:56:28 <xfq> ... we don't use exception tables
07:56:36 <xfq> [async/await Support]
07:56:58 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: when the program is executed to await, the function foo() pauses the execution
07:57:03 <xfq> ... after the main function has been completed, the remaining code of the function foo() will be executed
07:57:12 <xfq> [Asynchronous in mixed running mode]
07:57:18 <xfq> [Typical Optimizations of JWST]
07:57:54 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: type fixing has been introduced in the previous section
07:58:10 <xfq> ... and inline cache
07:58:27 <xfq> [Inline Cache]
07:58:49 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: managed JS runtimes like V8 implement optimization called inline cache
07:59:20 <xfq> ... it adds a cache area for object searching
07:59:25 <xfq> [Array layout optimization]
07:59:51 <xfq> [Global Function Caching]
08:00:05 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU:  *Most* JS functions do not change their names after definitions
08:00:19 <xfq> ... the compiler resolves the definitions at compile time, so the generated code calls into the function directly without going through dispatch() or other wrappers
08:00:32 <xfq> [Performance Evaluation of the compiler]
08:00:59 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: the compiler has a consistent pass rate compared to QuickJS
08:01:04 <xfq> ... wrt test262
08:01:30 <xfq> ... in terms of built-ins, 204 test cases related to Atomic require multithreading support, while WASM runtime does not support multithreading currently
08:01:40 <xfq> ... 1 test cases related to floating-point precision
08:01:46 <xfq> [Floating-Point Rounding modes]
08:02:22 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: wasm only supports round-to-nearest
08:02:27 <xfq> ... unlike native
08:02:42 <xfq> ... we ran JWST on SunSpider
08:03:05 <xfq> ... its total performance is ~50% faster than Node.js, for the first execution
08:03:43 <xfq> ... the running time on Node.js include all the initialization
08:04:07 <xfq> [Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU introduces SunSpider@wasmer, Kirin 990E]
08:04:48 <xfq> [SunSpider@wasmer, Intel i7]
08:05:14 <xfq> [Show React Native Samples (TTI, 0.1x play)]
08:05:45 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: the examples are V8 with cache and V8 without cache
08:06:17 <xfq> ... significantly faster than V8 without cache
08:07:02 <xfq> [Comparing JWST (WASM), JWST Native, V8-Cache, and V8-No-Cache]
08:07:16 <xfq> [Evaluate the Start-up JS Scripts of a RN APP]
08:07:44 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: when we analyze the overhead on the startup screen
08:07:54 <Dingwei> the presentation will end at 10:10 followed by Q/A
08:08:06 <xfq> s/startup screen/startup script
08:08:37 <xfq> s/startup script/startup script of a release-mode RN app
08:08:37 <Dingwei> the q is open, please do q+ if you like to speak
08:08:39 <xfq> ... JWST-WASM is ~10.5x and ~126% faster than V8 without code cache and with code cache, respectively
08:09:00 <xfq> [React Native Samples: Compilation Time and Code Size]
08:09:27 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: the JS Release version is 1.3MB
08:09:56 <xfq> ... JWST (JSBundle => LLVM IR) compilation time is 640s
08:10:15 <xfq> ... on Intel Core i9-12900KF 3.20GHz with 32G Memory
08:10:24 <xfq> [Expectations for WASM]
08:10:33 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: 1. DLL Support
08:10:39 <xfq> ... 2. GC Support
08:10:45 <xfq> ... 3. DOM Support
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08:10:56 <xfq> ... 4. Furthermore, is it possible to use WASM as the fundamental language/bytecode for web applications?
08:11:11 <xfq> ... that means running JavaScript and all other languages on WASM runtimes
08:11:22 <xfq> Dingwei: thanks for sharing
08:11:43 <xfq> ... before going to the Q&A session, I want to reintroduce the goal of the session
08:11:51 <xfq> ... we would like to solicit comments
08:11:51 <tomayac> q+
08:12:11 <xfq> tomayac: thanks for the presentation
08:12:11 <xfq> ack to
08:12:16 <Dingwei> q?
08:12:44 <xfq> tomayac: regarding the development experience, I was wondering if you have compared it to AssemblyScript
08:13:14 <tomayac> How is the developer experience compared to AssemblyScript? https://www.assemblyscript.org/
08:13:16 <xiaoqian> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU ^^
08:13:30 <Dingwei> q?
08:13:34 <xfq> ... second question, where can we find out more?
08:13:36 <tomayac> Where can we find out more? Is there a link to a repository?
08:13:47 <xfq> ... I tried searching for them, but didn't find any information
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08:14:10 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: the challenge for a static compiler is bigger
08:14:25 <xfq> ... we will handle all the dynamic type features
08:14:39 <Dingwei> q+
08:14:45 <xfq> ... for this part it is more difficult than AssemblyScript
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08:15:00 <xfq> ... we build this with Huawei
08:15:09 <xueyuan> q?
08:15:13 <Dingwei> q?
08:15:13 <xfq> Dingwei: we will open source this
08:15:16 <xfq> ack Dingwei
08:15:51 <xfq> daniel: how is the point of view for a developer?
08:15:59 <Dingwei> s/will open source this/ will consider to open source this and it is still in the process
08:16:18 <xfq> ... if something goes wrong and do some tracing, is that supported through the whole process?
08:16:24 <xfq> ling: this is a good question
08:16:32 <xfq> ... we think debugging should be supported
08:16:41 <Dingwei> q?
08:16:42 <xfq> ... this is an attempt to compiling JS to wasm
08:16:52 <tomayac> q+ To ask if they have looked at WebAssembly Garbage Collection (WasmGC)
08:16:56 <xfq> ... there are a lot of problems need solving
08:17:06 <xfq> ... debugging is a problem that needs to be solved later
08:17:06 <Dingwei> ack to
08:17:06 <Zakim> tomayac, you wanted to ask if they have looked at WebAssembly Garbage Collection (WasmGC)
08:17:24 <xfq> tomayac: Chrome just sent an intent to ship WebAssembly Garbage Collection (WasmGC)
08:17:35 <xfq> ... have you looked at it?
08:17:38 <Dingwei> q?
08:17:58 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: regarding GC, we just use the GC of QuickJS
08:18:13 <Dingwei> q?
08:18:13 <xfq> ... if wasm runtime has GC, I think we will use it
08:18:43 <xfq> Dingwei: any other questions?
08:18:52 <xfq> ... especially from the wasm WG
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08:20:01 <xfq> Dingwei: we will continue to discuss on github
08:20:11 <xfq> ... on this page: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/22
08:20:25 <xfq> ... we want to collect more thoughts and discuss together
08:20:42 <gaochun> Is SIMD supported by JWST?
08:20:44 <Dingwei> q?
08:21:11 <xfq> Shi_Xiaohua_BeihangU: we have a compiler toolchain
08:21:35 <xfq> ... if LLVM compiler supportsSIMD, we will support SIMD
08:21:36 <Dingwei> q?
08:21:42 <xfq> s/supportsSIMD/supports SIMD
08:21:56 <xfq> s/if LLVM/if the LLVM
08:22:40 <xfq> Dingwei: any more questions?
08:23:11 <ChrisLorenzo> present+
08:23:22 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
08:23:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html xfq
08:23:31 <dape> Present+
08:23:36 <gaochun> present+
08:23:39 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
08:23:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html xfq
08:23:59 <shanhuaqi> present+
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08:45:30 <xueyuan> present+ Daniel Peintner, Ken Komatsu, Thomas Steiner, Jiantong Zhou, Christian Liebel, Andrew Comminos, Sam Weiss
08:51:12 <xueyuan> present+ participants on Zoom (Kirk Lin, Jianxin Zhang, Larry Zhao, yu luo, Huihai Shen, davey, Alexandru Mihai, Davor Davidovikj, ripple, Dbettkk)
08:51:19 <xueyuan> rrsagent, make minutes
08:51:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html xueyuan
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08:53:08 <xueyuan> present- participants on Zoom (Kirk Lin, Jianxin Zhang, Larry Zhao, yu luo, Huihai Shen, davey, Alexandru Mihai, Davor Davidovikj, ripple, Dbettkk)
08:53:13 <xueyuan> rrsagent, make minutes
08:53:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html xueyuan
08:53:55 <xueyuan> present+ participants on Zoom (Kirk Lin; Jianxin Zhang)
08:54:00 <xueyuan> rrsagent, make minutes
08:54:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html xueyuan
08:54:54 <xueyuan> present- participants on Zoom (Kirk Lin; Jianxin Zhang)
08:55:38 <xueyuan> present+ participants on Zoom (Kirk Lin; Jianxin Zhang; Larry Zhao; yu luo; Huihai Shen; davey; Alexandru Mihai; Davor Davidovikj; ripple; Dbettkk)
08:55:43 <xueyuan> rrsagent, make minutes
08:55:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-js2wasm-minutes.html xueyuan
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