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10:22:01 <CharlesL> meeting: Cross-Browser Automated Accessibility Testing in WPT Interop 2023 and Beyond
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10:22:44 <wendyreid> jcraig: Welcome to the automated testing session
10:22:44 <jgraham_> Chair: James Craig
10:22:44 <wendyreid> ... Simon and others kicked off a 2023 interop acessibility investigation
10:22:44 <wendyreid> ... we've made a whole lot of progress
10:22:44 <wendyreid> ... I want to share what we've done this year
10:22:44 <wendyreid> ... integration into the servers and talk about the scope of what's testable
10:22:47 <wendyreid> ... some new things that people would like to do
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10:22:58 <wendyreid> ... a proposed solution we've been discussing with the browser testing and tools group
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10:23:22 <wendyreid> ... webdriver, scheduled for later this week
10:23:22 <wendyreid> ... any questions?
10:23:22 <mrobinson> present+
10:23:22 <Matt_King> present+
10:24:50 <wendyreid> jcraig: I always like to start with a little bit of background
10:24:50 <wendyreid> ... I know this is a web group
10:24:50 <wendyreid> ... [sharing slides]
10:24:50 <wendyreid> ... the web stack, on one side we have the web author, the other we have the end user
10:24:50 <wendyreid> ... web APIs, html css javascript, then the webkit
10:24:50 <wendyreid> ... the implementation inside webkit - webcore
10:24:50 <wendyreid> ... how pixels are rendered, keyboard and mouse events
10:24:54 <wendyreid> ... implementations of accessibility differ
10:24:57 <wendyreid> ... change by platform
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10:25:09 <wendyreid> ... inside the rendering engine there is an accessibility runtime
10:25:20 <wendyreid> ... it bends properties to a platform-specific context
10:25:35 <wendyreid> ... that API is accessed by assistive technologies
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10:25:36 <wendyreid> ... screen reader, switch control, etc
10:25:43 <wendyreid> ... that renders the interface to the end user
10:26:26 <wendyreid> ... and it's 2-way, the AT will send events back from the user
10:26:26 <wendyreid> ... the web stack will test things along the way
10:26:26 <wendyreid> ... many platforms have platform-specific automation
10:27:00 <wendyreid> ... windows has UI Automation, there are accessibility hooks for that automation
10:27:00 <wendyreid> ... there is client-side automation
10:27:00 <wendyreid> ... Deque's axe-core
10:27:00 <wendyreid> ... accessing the DOM, what is available via the DOM
10:27:07 <wendyreid> ... slides will be shared later
10:27:18 <wendyreid> ... every engine has it's own specific internal automation
10:27:23 <wendyreid> ... WebKit has Layout Test
10:27:41 <wendyreid> ... as of this spring, WebKit had 83k tests
10:27:46 <wendyreid> ... WPT has 1.8 million tests
10:27:53 <wendyreid> ... shared between different runtimes, engines
10:28:33 <wendyreid> ... goal of these tests is a write-once-run-anywhere
10:28:33 <wendyreid> ... until this year, there was very little testing related to accessibility
10:28:46 <wendyreid> ... who here has heard of WPT, and Interop 2023
10:29:01 <wendyreid> ... goal is to achieve interoperability and testing for it in 2023
10:29:15 <wendyreid> ... this includes flexbox, video codecs, accessibility investigation
10:29:29 <wendyreid> ... in april, we did some infrastructure work to hook into web driver properties
10:29:46 <wendyreid> ... at TPAC 2019 Chrome and WebKit had implemented, we have a path forward here
10:29:51 <wendyreid> ... let's see how much we can test
10:30:05 <wendyreid> ... Firefox and Gecko hadn't implemented then, but has now
10:30:23 <wendyreid> ... as of today, we have about 620 web accessibility tests running in CI builds
10:30:26 <wendyreid> ... this is HUGE
10:30:37 <wendyreid> ... it opens up so many different possibilities for reliability
10:31:24 <wendyreid> ... we started testing the accessibility names spec, AAM, ARIA, we've hit about 600 tests
10:31:24 <wendyreid> ... thousands of tests that are now unblocked, and we'll likely clear 1000 this year
10:31:30 <wendyreid> ... we've discovered many bugs, and cleared many of them
10:31:38 <wendyreid> ... discovered spec ambiguities
10:31:46 <wendyreid> ... good benefit as well
10:32:08 <wendyreid> ... one of the differences between this and other tests, there are new infinitives to writing these tests
10:32:22 <wendyreid> ... web developers have little incentive to write browser-specific tests
10:33:00 <wendyreid> ... it's a lot of work
10:33:00 <wendyreid> ... learn how to do all these custom specific things that browser engineers should be doing
10:33:00 <wendyreid> ... write-once-run-anywhere tests are more appealing, they can test issues they run into
10:34:03 <wendyreid> ... it's using web technologies, HTML and JS, I hope that the web developers in the audience, see this and want to contribute
10:34:03 <wendyreid> ... you're making the web better
10:34:03 <wendyreid> ... extend testing beyond role and label
10:34:03 <wendyreid> ... we have a team of about a dozen
10:34:03 <wendyreid> ... we could use some help
10:34:03 <wendyreid> ... next steps beyond what we can do this year
10:34:03 <wendyreid> ... we need to extend our testing
10:34:17 <wendyreid> ... beyond role and label, there are incubator issues in the AOM incubator (#197 and #203)
10:34:34 <wendyreid> ... that's the gist of accessibility investigation this year
10:34:48 <wendyreid> ... show you one more thing [changes shared screen]
10:34:54 <jamesn> https://github.com/WICG/aom/issues/197
10:35:12 <jamesn> https://github.com/WICG/aom/issues/203
10:35:51 <wendyreid> jcraig: [new screen] Scoring criteria for the testing
10:36:06 <wendyreid> ... we have a list of what we're working on [walks through list]
10:36:17 <wendyreid> ... there are a number of role tests remaining, and app name tests
10:36:22 <wendyreid> s/app/acc/
10:36:37 <wendyreid> ... if there's time at the end, we'll do SVG ARIA and DPUB ARIA
10:37:16 <wendyreid> ... [WPT dashboard] Label:accessibility
10:37:50 <wendyreid> ... this is the WPT dashboard showing the accessibility tests
10:37:50 <wendyreid> ... [grid of different tests]
10:37:52 <wendyreid> ... failures and different ones in each browsers
10:38:08 <jcraig> https://wpt.fyi/results/wai-aria/role?label=master&label=experimental&aligned&q=label%3Aaccessibility
10:38:19 <wendyreid> ... [return to slides]
10:38:32 <wendyreid> ... we'd like to extend accessibility testability beyond what we're able to currently test
10:38:53 <wendyreid> ... 53 ARIA attributes in the editor's draft and role
10:38:58 <wendyreid> ... how many of those have we been able to test?
10:39:01 <wendyreid> Wilco: 3?
10:39:06 <wendyreid> jcraig: You knew the answer
10:39:12 <wendyreid> ... yes, 3 / 53
10:39:17 <wendyreid> ... we have a lot more to test
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10:39:26 <wendyreid> ... we got 600 tests out of 3 attributes
10:39:36 <wendyreid> ... all of the reigning ARIA attributes and associated features
10:39:51 <wendyreid> ... if there are similar host semantics, there is reconiliation of which wins
10:40:04 <wendyreid> ... ideally we could synthesize associated accessibility actions and events
10:40:09 <wendyreid> ... there are notable differences
10:40:16 <wendyreid> ... there are different interoperability issues
10:40:35 <wendyreid> ... registering to receive notifications, it would be good to test this and intercept in testing
10:40:44 <wendyreid> ... the accessibility tree one kicked off this project
10:40:54 <wendyreid> ... could we have an interoperable accessibility tree?
10:41:06 <wendyreid> ... I don't think it will happen this year, but I think we can work towards it
10:41:20 <wendyreid> ... it's a worth test interface, even if we don't end up with an interoperable tree
10:41:30 <wendyreid> ... we can work towards testability
10:41:46 <wendyreid> ... we can avoid posting the tests that have irrelevant details
10:42:00 <wendyreid> ... AOM #197, this is the discussion we've been having
10:42:01 <jamesn> https://github.com/WICG/aom/issues/197
10:42:08 <wendyreid> ... new test-only web API
10:42:17 <wendyreid> ... all of the browsers agree on the following details
10:42:22 <wendyreid> ... we need test-only web apis
10:42:40 <wendyreid> ... we agreed that it would be too problematic to open this up to the public for use
10:42:48 <wendyreid> ... remain test-only for the foreseeable future
10:43:12 <wendyreid> ... within that test-only API, we need a way to get to an accessibility object and its attributes
10:43:27 <wendyreid> ... a way to reconcile accessibility objects with elements
10:43:35 <wendyreid> ... synthesize user events from AT
10:43:54 <wendyreid> ... as if a user were to press something, click, focus, these events differ
10:44:01 <wendyreid> ... if ARIA ships aria-actions, that is a different event
10:44:08 <wendyreid> ... there is no way to test that yet
10:44:18 <wendyreid> ... a way to register for outbound accessibility notifications
10:44:22 <wendyreid> ... non goals
10:44:38 <wendyreid> ... refs to accessible nodes are not expected to be writeable
10:44:46 <wendyreid> ... we should nto be able to change its state
10:44:50 <wendyreid> ... not expected to be live
10:44:58 <wendyreid> ... don't think the implementability will be there
10:45:05 <wendyreid> ... a snapshot or property back instead
10:45:22 <wendyreid> ... refs to accessible node are not expected to be persistent after DOM changes
10:45:31 <wendyreid> ... no relation to the previous one
10:45:47 <wendyreid> ... tree identicality, we are not expecting tree interoperability at this point
10:46:00 <wendyreid> ... platform-specific accessibility APIs are not in scope, yet
10:46:15 <wendyreid> ... testing accessibility features or ATs is not part of this effort
10:46:21 <wendyreid> ... we're not automating VoiceOver for example
10:46:40 <CharlesL> q+
10:46:43 <wendyreid> ... another group has a presentation today working on something called AT Driver, there's overlap here, but we're not doing that
10:46:56 <wendyreid> ... this portion of the presentation will be more fleshed out tomorrow, when we talk to browser testing tools
10:47:05 <wendyreid> ... one discussion of what web driver might look like
10:47:34 <wendyreid> Matt_King: It's not expected to be live, I was not following what you meant
10:47:58 <wendyreid> jcraig: Thanks, I'm trying my best to avoid words like interface or method, I'm talking about these things conceptually
10:48:15 <Wolfgang> q?
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10:48:19 <wendyreid> ... sometimes when you explore a new web interface, there are refs or things you can call into
10:48:44 <wendyreid> ... in the case of WebDriver, it's a server-client relationship where you call out to the backing web server and giving an ID and getting a property back
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10:48:57 <wendyreid> ... it's not like you could observe a change on that element, to do so you'd need to make a request back
10:49:40 <wendyreid> ???: You have a test, you get an object, you go to the node interface, test runs, the accessibility interface may destroy the old content, and you'd need to re-request
10:49:52 <wendyreid> Matt_King: The objects you're getting are from the accessibility tree?
10:50:03 <wendyreid> jcraig: The browser's representation
10:50:10 <wendyreid> ???: It's not platform specific
10:50:23 <wendyreid> jcraig: Hidden and shown again, a completely new identifier
10:50:34 <wendyreid> Matt_King: You can't rely on the unseen behaviour of the layer
10:50:44 <wendyreid> ???: You can't rely on the underlying DOM
10:50:54 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
10:50:56 <Wilco> q+
10:51:14 <spectranaut_> s/???/aaronlev/g
10:51:41 <wendyreid> CharlesL: On the last slide, one of the points mentioned platform specific was not going to be test
10:51:49 <aaronlev> ??? = Aaron Leventhal
10:51:52 <wendyreid> ... a chrome implementation, you're not testing windows vs mac
10:51:59 <wendyreid> ... would the tests really show that?
10:52:23 <wendyreid> ... for role, you're expecting doc-chapter, depending on mac or windows, those results would be identifiable
10:52:30 <wendyreid> ... just trying to understand why that would not work?
10:52:50 <wendyreid> jcraig: I'll go back to the slide on the web automation stack
10:53:41 <wendyreid> ... four grey boxes, different types of automation, platform-specific (Mac AX roles), client-side automation (axe-core), in the browser internals it would be the same for both
10:53:52 <wendyreid> ... the only standard we have is what is the computed ARIA role for this element
10:54:00 <wendyreid> ... does this element have a role of heading
10:54:13 <wendyreid> ... but it's different from an AX role of heading or a Windows role of heading
10:54:25 <wendyreid> ... we're testing the web specific portion of the stack, not the platform on
10:54:29 <wendyreid> s/on/one/
10:54:47 <wendyreid> ... here is a specific web test, WPT can't do this kind of platform testing well
10:54:58 <wendyreid> ????: We try to avoid that kind of thing
10:55:19 <wendyreid> jcraig: The CI implementation on that is a linux machine, so it's not even running those platform APIs
10:55:27 <wendyreid> Wilco: I had 2 questions
10:55:35 <zcorpan> s/????/jgraham/
10:55:58 <wendyreid> ... this sounds to me like [?] has with (sorry I missed this)
10:56:10 <wendyreid> ... have you thought about what ARIA is doing with pulling language or table structure?
10:56:20 <wendyreid> jcraig: I hadn't personally thought of the lang attributes
10:56:29 <wendyreid> ... I know VO will switch languages
10:56:36 <matatk> s/????: We/jgraham: We/
10:56:40 <zcorpan> q+
10:56:49 <wendyreid> ... it's doing that because there is a WPT for it
10:57:22 <wendyreid> ... anything with reference to accessibility, and
10:57:41 <wendyreid> ... repeating the first question, CP, the Chrome Dev Tools, James Graham, does that align?
10:57:51 <zcorpan> s/CP/CDP/
10:57:52 <wendyreid> ... this particular section about the web driver potential extension
10:58:02 <wendyreid> ... I don't know as much about it as the others
10:58:13 <wendyreid> ... one recommendation was to put this on the bidi roadmap
10:58:28 <wendyreid> jgraham_: I can answer but it might not be worth taking up time
10:58:33 <wendyreid> jcraig: We can discuss tomorro
10:58:59 <wendyreid> Simon: Web Driver bidi, (missed)
10:59:14 <wendyreid> Simon: adding to the language question, the content language, set with the lang attribute
10:59:18 <wendyreid> ... it's already testable
10:59:26 <wendyreid> ... it can be tested in WPT today
10:59:48 <wendyreid> jcraig: Browser internal accessibility it's going to be platform specific
11:00:00 <wendyreid> ... you can test it in the browser, but should we test it in accessibility
11:00:09 <wendyreid> [cross-chatter]
11:00:31 <wendyreid> %%%: There are bugs and ambiguities to test
11:00:34 <zcorpan> ack zcorpan
11:00:43 <spectranaut_> s/%%%/jamesn/
11:00:45 <wendyreid> jcraig: This will be more fleshed out in the webdriver session tomorrow
11:00:58 <wendyreid> ... we need either a new method for specific web driver extension
11:01:15 <Wilco> ack wilco
11:01:24 <wendyreid> jcraig: Potentially be a web opt-in extension
11:01:40 <wendyreid> ... because there is so much in accessibility, we don't want to ask web driver to update piecemeal
11:01:55 <wendyreid> ... we need a method on the existing web driver interface to get a node
11:02:10 <wendyreid> ... this is a way to reconcile if you have an accessibility object
11:02:24 <wendyreid> ... if there is a relationship between an object and node we need to get at it
11:02:39 <wendyreid> ... ways to get an web driver ID from a node
11:03:04 <wendyreid> ... this is a potential sample JSON object [slide]
11:03:10 <wendyreid> ... label, role, parent
11:03:13 <wendyreid> ... ids for each
11:03:19 <wendyreid> ... checkstate, requiredstate
11:03:29 <wendyreid> ... way to synthesize an event on an accessibility node
11:03:47 <wendyreid> ... minimum payload would be the notification type
11:03:54 <jgraham_> q+
11:03:54 <wendyreid> ... focus, press, actions
11:04:03 <wendyreid> ... open questions
11:04:19 <wendyreid> ... why return property bag instead of calls per property
11:04:32 <wendyreid> ... there could be a lot of property values, especially for some tests
11:04:41 <wendyreid> ... would fit closer with current web driver interface
11:04:58 <wendyreid> ... are accessibility id refs implementable in an interoperable manner?
11:05:12 <wendyreid> ... depending on the longevity of the references, some aren't possible yet?
11:05:33 <wendyreid> ... what about testing accessibility of related native features like `inert`?
11:05:40 <wendyreid> ... good questions everyone
11:05:42 <zcorpan> q?
11:05:56 <wendyreid> ack jgraham_
11:06:20 <wendyreid> jgraham_: Make a few comments, first one is that if you have time for discussion, let's make it happen?
11:06:27 <wendyreid> [scheduling]
11:07:34 <wendyreid> jgraham_: Of the details, you mentioned bidi, a lot of this is a fit for bidi, for the DOM tree, we more accurately represent that in bidi
11:07:34 <wendyreid> ... it becomes complicated to work with
11:07:35 <wendyreid> ... I will definitely think about this, classic web driver will be the way to get this working in all browsers
11:07:53 <wendyreid> ... its' also worth thinking about what you actually want this to look like, then determine protoals
11:08:02 <wendyreid> ... looks at existing [?] actions
11:08:22 <wendyreid> ... it moves from point to point, presses, it might fit with that instead of a new endpoint?
11:08:33 <wendyreid> jcraig: It's critical we go through the accessibility node
11:08:51 <wendyreid> jgraham_: If you want it to be this source, performs this action, it can represent that
11:09:03 <wendyreid> jcraig: For bidi vs web driver, I'll do what Sam things is best
11:09:22 <wendyreid> jgraham_: Do what's best for browsers, what worries me, if we have this stuff, web authors may use it for their own tests
11:09:35 <wendyreid> ... but not accessibility, it gives them information that's hard to get other ways
11:09:53 <wendyreid> ... having things like "is this completely implemented, defined", it could be a risk
11:10:10 <wendyreid> ... be more specific about what the integration is or browser specific
11:10:16 <wendyreid> jcraig: I think we're align on what we want
11:10:23 <wendyreid> ... webkit has an intermediary accessibility node
11:10:39 <wendyreid> ... differences would be tree relationships, different parent, but can still get into ut
11:10:56 <wendyreid> ... if a web author hits that, it may need notes in the TODOs, they can fix their tests
11:11:02 <wendyreid> jgraham_: [missed this]
11:11:08 <zcorpan> q?
11:11:20 <wendyreid> jcraig: Anyone jones-ing to write accessibility WPT tests?
11:11:24 <wendyreid> [hands!]
11:11:25 <jgraham_> s/[missed this]/it's definitely difficult if it's different tree structures/
11:11:42 <wendyreid> Wilco: Question, accessibility conformance testing taskforce
11:11:59 <wendyreid> ... writes a lot of rules that are picked up in testing, we're having a hard time to track what works where
11:12:10 <wendyreid> ... this will help us figure that out, and we can help with gaps
11:12:19 <wendyreid> jcraig: The arrangement of testing is by spec
11:12:27 <wendyreid> ... line-by-line we go through the requirements
11:12:37 <wendyreid> ... it would be good to have tests for WCAg
11:12:50 <wendyreid> ... the tests are similar if structured differently
11:13:00 <wendyreid> ... ARIA vs WCAG, we say a lot of bugs in testing
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11:13:06 <wendyreid> Wilco: I believe that!
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11:13:16 <wendyreid> jcraig: Thanks everyone for your time, email me!
11:13:28 <wendyreid> ... contact me via the W3C slack too
11:13:45 <alexrudenko_> present-
11:13:54 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
11:13:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-minutes.html wendyreid
11:30:19 <jcraig> Slides: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0eciRqzy6aGWyffs7OXZbkz8w#AccessibilityAutomation_2023SeptTPAC
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11:30:49 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
11:30:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-minutes.html jcraig
11:34:04 <jcraig> s/doing that because there is a WPT for it/doing that because there is an attribute for it in the platform accessibility API/
11:34:21 <jcraig> s/acessibility/accessibility/g
11:35:54 <jcraig> s/a proposed solution we've been discussing with the browser testing /a potential solution we'll be discussing tomorrow with the browser testing /
11:36:44 <jcraig> s/web group/web group so many of you know this background already/
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11:38:32 <jcraig> s/ javascript, then the webkit/ javascript, then the rendering engine's implementation/
11:38:58 <jcraig> s/the implementation inside webkit/in Safari's case, the implementation inside webkit/
11:39:35 <jcraig> s/bends properties/vends properties/
11:40:40 <jcraig> s/windows has UI Automation/both Windows and Mac have UIAutomation (though different ones)/
11:41:06 <jcraig> s/Deque's axe-core/such as Deque's axe-core/
11:42:14 <jcraig> s/video codecs, accessibility investigation/video codecs, inert, pointer events, accessibility investigation/
11:43:32 <jcraig> s/Gecko hadn't implemented then/Gecko hadn't implemented the webdriver interface in April, but did in May/
11:44:19 <jcraig> s/about 620 web accessibility tests running in CI builds/620 web accessibility tests running in the CI environments of every major browser engine on the planet/
11:45:26 <jcraig> s/accessibility names spec, AAM, ARIA,/accessibility names spec (AccName), HTML-AAM, ARIA,/
11:45:58 <jcraig> s/new infinitives to writing these tests/new incentives to writing these tests/
11:48:07 <jcraig> s/we have a team of about a dozen/we have a team of about a dozen from all over: Bocoup, Igalia, Apple, Adobe, Google, Salesforce, etc/
11:48:33 <matatk> matatk has joined #interop-2023-a11y
11:49:18 <jcraig> s/reigning ARIA attributes/remaining ARIA attributes/
11:50:03 <jcraig> s/could we have an interoperable accessibility tree?/People wondered: could we have an interoperable accessibility tree in 2023?/
11:50:27 <jcraig> s/I don't think it will happen this year,/It won't happen this year,/
11:51:04 <jcraig> s/worth test interface/worthy test interface/
11:51:55 <jcraig> s/browsers agree on the following details/WPT Accessibility stakeholders agree on the following details/
11:53:18 <jcraig> s/not expected to be live/not expected to be live (probably a snapshot object aka "property bag")/
11:53:37 <jcraig> s/property back instead/property bag instead/
11:55:03 <jcraig> s/there's overlap here, but we're not doing that/there's overlap with some of the people working on the other one, but it's not in scope for this effort/
11:57:27 <jcraig> s/The objects you're getting are from the accessibility tree?/The objects you're getting are from the platform accessibility tree?/
11:58:14 <jcraig> s/The browser's representation/No, it's getting the browser's internal representation of the tree, before it makes it out to the platform./
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11:59:56 <jcraig> s/Hidden and shown again, a completely new identifier/another example, if you were to hide an element and show it again, the backing accessibility node would likely have a completely new identifier, and bear no relationship to the previous accessibility node that was exposed./
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12:02:04 <jcraig> s/AX role of heading or a Windows role of heading/AXRole of AXHeading on Mac, or a Windows role of heading in the windows-specific platform accessibility API/
12:02:33 <jcraig> s/We try to avoid that kind of thing/WPT tries to avoid that kind of thing/
12:02:47 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
12:02:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-minutes.html jcraig
12:04:10 <jcraig> s/we're testing the web specific portione of the stack, not the platform on/in this case it's testing the web-engine-specific portion of the stack, not the platform one/
12:05:01 <jcraig> s/anything with reference to accessibility/so anything with relevance to accessibility should be tested here, not just the ARIA stuff/
12:05:39 <jcraig> s/I don't know as much about it as the others/I don't know as much about it as the others, maybe James Graham or Sam Sneddon?/
12:10:12 <jcraig> s/web opt-in extension/web driver extension/