IRC log of interop-2023-a11y on 2023-09-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:38:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #interop-2023-a11y
06:38:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-irc
06:39:57 [Ian]
Ian has left #interop-2023-a11y
07:10:45 [Ian]
Ian has joined #interop-2023-a11y
07:10:57 [Ian]
RRSAgent, do not leave
07:10:59 [Ian]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:11:03 [Ian]
Ian has left #interop-2023-a11y
10:13:56 [wendyreid]
wendyreid has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:19:00 [CharlesL]
CharlesL has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:19:38 [CharlesL]
present+
10:19:42 [Louay_]
Louay_ has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:19:47 [Fritz]
Fritz has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:19:51 [wendyreid]
present+
10:20:02 [Louay_]
present+ Louay_Bassbouss
10:20:43 [alexrudenko_]
alexrudenko_ has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:20:43 [jgraham_]
jgraham_ has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:20:43 [alexrudenko_]
present+
10:20:43 [Fritz]
present+ Fritz_Heiden
10:20:43 [jgraham_]
present+
10:20:43 [gpellegrino]
gpellegrino has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:20:43 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:20:43 [Wilco]
Wilco has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:20:43 [gpellegrino]
present+
10:20:43 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_ has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:20:43 [jgraham_]
RRSAgent: make minutes
10:20:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-minutes.html jgraham_
10:20:51 [Wilco]
present+
10:22:01 [jamesn]
present+
10:22:01 [aaronlev]
aaronlev has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [atai]
atai has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [zcorpan]
zcorpan has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [whimboo__]
whimboo__ has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [matatk]
matatk has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [wendyreid]
scribe+
10:22:01 [zcorpan]
present+
10:22:01 [spectranaut_]
present+
10:22:01 [matatk]
present+
10:22:01 [jarhar]
jarhar has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [wfilipek]
wfilipek has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [atai]
present+ Andreas_Tai
10:22:01 [Wolfgang]
Wolfgang has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [CharlesL]
meeting: Cross-Browser Automated Accessibility Testing in WPT Interop 2023 and Beyond
10:22:01 [Roy]
Roy has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:01 [BrianE]
BrianE has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:44 [wendyreid]
jcraig: Welcome to the automated testing session
10:22:44 [jgraham_]
Chair: James Craig
10:22:44 [wendyreid]
... Simon and others kicked off a 2023 interop acessibility investigation
10:22:44 [wendyreid]
... we've made a whole lot of progress
10:22:44 [wendyreid]
... I want to share what we've done this year
10:22:44 [wendyreid]
... integration into the servers and talk about the scope of what's testable
10:22:47 [wendyreid]
... some new things that people would like to do
10:22:54 [Matt_King]
Matt_King has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:22:55 [whimboo__]
present+
10:22:58 [wendyreid]
... a proposed solution we've been discussing with the browser testing and tools group
10:23:00 [mrobinson]
mrobinson has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:23:22 [wendyreid]
... webdriver, scheduled for later this week
10:23:22 [wendyreid]
... any questions?
10:23:22 [mrobinson]
present+
10:23:22 [Matt_King]
present+
10:24:50 [wendyreid]
jcraig: I always like to start with a little bit of background
10:24:50 [wendyreid]
... I know this is a web group
10:24:50 [wendyreid]
... [sharing slides]
10:24:50 [wendyreid]
... the web stack, on one side we have the web author, the other we have the end user
10:24:50 [wendyreid]
... web APIs, html css javascript, then the webkit
10:24:50 [wendyreid]
... the implementation inside webkit - webcore
10:24:50 [wendyreid]
... how pixels are rendered, keyboard and mouse events
10:24:54 [wendyreid]
... implementations of accessibility differ
10:24:57 [wendyreid]
... change by platform
10:25:07 [daniel-montalvo]
daniel-montalvo has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:25:09 [wendyreid]
... inside the rendering engine there is an accessibility runtime
10:25:20 [wendyreid]
... it bends properties to a platform-specific context
10:25:35 [wendyreid]
... that API is accessed by assistive technologies
10:25:35 [Jean-Yves_]
Jean-Yves_ has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:25:36 [wendyreid]
... screen reader, switch control, etc
10:25:43 [wendyreid]
... that renders the interface to the end user
10:26:26 [wendyreid]
... and it's 2-way, the AT will send events back from the user
10:26:26 [wendyreid]
... the web stack will test things along the way
10:26:26 [wendyreid]
... many platforms have platform-specific automation
10:27:00 [wendyreid]
... windows has UI Automation, there are accessibility hooks for that automation
10:27:00 [wendyreid]
... there is client-side automation
10:27:00 [wendyreid]
... Deque's axe-core
10:27:00 [wendyreid]
... accessing the DOM, what is available via the DOM
10:27:07 [wendyreid]
... slides will be shared later
10:27:18 [wendyreid]
... every engine has it's own specific internal automation
10:27:23 [wendyreid]
... WebKit has Layout Test
10:27:41 [wendyreid]
... as of this spring, WebKit had 83k tests
10:27:46 [wendyreid]
... WPT has 1.8 million tests
10:27:53 [wendyreid]
... shared between different runtimes, engines
10:28:33 [wendyreid]
... goal of these tests is a write-once-run-anywhere
10:28:33 [wendyreid]
... until this year, there was very little testing related to accessibility
10:28:46 [wendyreid]
... who here has heard of WPT, and Interop 2023
10:29:01 [wendyreid]
... goal is to achieve interoperability and testing for it in 2023
10:29:15 [wendyreid]
... this includes flexbox, video codecs, accessibility investigation
10:29:29 [wendyreid]
... in april, we did some infrastructure work to hook into web driver properties
10:29:46 [wendyreid]
... at TPAC 2019 Chrome and WebKit had implemented, we have a path forward here
10:29:51 [wendyreid]
... let's see how much we can test
10:30:05 [wendyreid]
... Firefox and Gecko hadn't implemented then, but has now
10:30:23 [wendyreid]
... as of today, we have about 620 web accessibility tests running in CI builds
10:30:26 [wendyreid]
... this is HUGE
10:30:37 [wendyreid]
... it opens up so many different possibilities for reliability
10:31:24 [wendyreid]
... we started testing the accessibility names spec, AAM, ARIA, we've hit about 600 tests
10:31:24 [wendyreid]
... thousands of tests that are now unblocked, and we'll likely clear 1000 this year
10:31:30 [wendyreid]
... we've discovered many bugs, and cleared many of them
10:31:38 [wendyreid]
... discovered spec ambiguities
10:31:46 [wendyreid]
... good benefit as well
10:32:08 [wendyreid]
... one of the differences between this and other tests, there are new infinitives to writing these tests
10:32:22 [wendyreid]
... web developers have little incentive to write browser-specific tests
10:33:00 [wendyreid]
... it's a lot of work
10:33:00 [wendyreid]
... learn how to do all these custom specific things that browser engineers should be doing
10:33:00 [wendyreid]
... write-once-run-anywhere tests are more appealing, they can test issues they run into
10:34:03 [wendyreid]
... it's using web technologies, HTML and JS, I hope that the web developers in the audience, see this and want to contribute
10:34:03 [wendyreid]
... you're making the web better
10:34:03 [wendyreid]
... extend testing beyond role and label
10:34:03 [wendyreid]
... we have a team of about a dozen
10:34:03 [wendyreid]
... we could use some help
10:34:03 [wendyreid]
... next steps beyond what we can do this year
10:34:03 [wendyreid]
... we need to extend our testing
10:34:17 [wendyreid]
... beyond role and label, there are incubator issues in the AOM incubator (#197 and #203)
10:34:34 [wendyreid]
... that's the gist of accessibility investigation this year
10:34:48 [wendyreid]
... show you one more thing [changes shared screen]
10:34:54 [jamesn]
https://github.com/WICG/aom/issues/197
10:35:12 [jamesn]
https://github.com/WICG/aom/issues/203
10:35:51 [wendyreid]
jcraig: [new screen] Scoring criteria for the testing
10:36:06 [wendyreid]
... we have a list of what we're working on [walks through list]
10:36:17 [wendyreid]
... there are a number of role tests remaining, and app name tests
10:36:22 [wendyreid]
s/app/acc/
10:36:37 [wendyreid]
... if there's time at the end, we'll do SVG ARIA and DPUB ARIA
10:37:16 [wendyreid]
... [WPT dashboard] Label:accessibility
10:37:50 [wendyreid]
... this is the WPT dashboard showing the accessibility tests
10:37:50 [wendyreid]
... [grid of different tests]
10:37:52 [wendyreid]
... failures and different ones in each browsers
10:38:08 [jcraig]
https://wpt.fyi/results/wai-aria/role?label=master&label=experimental&aligned&q=label%3Aaccessibility
10:38:19 [wendyreid]
... [return to slides]
10:38:32 [wendyreid]
... we'd like to extend accessibility testability beyond what we're able to currently test
10:38:53 [wendyreid]
... 53 ARIA attributes in the editor's draft and role
10:38:58 [wendyreid]
... how many of those have we been able to test?
10:39:01 [wendyreid]
Wilco: 3?
10:39:06 [wendyreid]
jcraig: You knew the answer
10:39:12 [wendyreid]
... yes, 3 / 53
10:39:17 [wendyreid]
... we have a lot more to test
10:39:18 [blfeigel]
blfeigel has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:39:26 [wendyreid]
... we got 600 tests out of 3 attributes
10:39:36 [wendyreid]
... all of the reigning ARIA attributes and associated features
10:39:51 [wendyreid]
... if there are similar host semantics, there is reconiliation of which wins
10:40:04 [wendyreid]
... ideally we could synthesize associated accessibility actions and events
10:40:09 [wendyreid]
... there are notable differences
10:40:16 [wendyreid]
... there are different interoperability issues
10:40:35 [wendyreid]
... registering to receive notifications, it would be good to test this and intercept in testing
10:40:44 [wendyreid]
... the accessibility tree one kicked off this project
10:40:54 [wendyreid]
... could we have an interoperable accessibility tree?
10:41:06 [wendyreid]
... I don't think it will happen this year, but I think we can work towards it
10:41:20 [wendyreid]
... it's a worth test interface, even if we don't end up with an interoperable tree
10:41:30 [wendyreid]
... we can work towards testability
10:41:46 [wendyreid]
... we can avoid posting the tests that have irrelevant details
10:42:00 [wendyreid]
... AOM #197, this is the discussion we've been having
10:42:01 [jamesn]
https://github.com/WICG/aom/issues/197
10:42:08 [wendyreid]
... new test-only web API
10:42:17 [wendyreid]
... all of the browsers agree on the following details
10:42:22 [wendyreid]
... we need test-only web apis
10:42:40 [wendyreid]
... we agreed that it would be too problematic to open this up to the public for use
10:42:48 [wendyreid]
... remain test-only for the foreseeable future
10:43:12 [wendyreid]
... within that test-only API, we need a way to get to an accessibility object and its attributes
10:43:27 [wendyreid]
... a way to reconcile accessibility objects with elements
10:43:35 [wendyreid]
... synthesize user events from AT
10:43:54 [wendyreid]
... as if a user were to press something, click, focus, these events differ
10:44:01 [wendyreid]
... if ARIA ships aria-actions, that is a different event
10:44:08 [wendyreid]
... there is no way to test that yet
10:44:18 [wendyreid]
... a way to register for outbound accessibility notifications
10:44:22 [wendyreid]
... non goals
10:44:38 [wendyreid]
... refs to accessible nodes are not expected to be writeable
10:44:46 [wendyreid]
... we should nto be able to change its state
10:44:50 [wendyreid]
... not expected to be live
10:44:58 [wendyreid]
... don't think the implementability will be there
10:45:05 [wendyreid]
... a snapshot or property back instead
10:45:22 [wendyreid]
... refs to accessible node are not expected to be persistent after DOM changes
10:45:31 [wendyreid]
... no relation to the previous one
10:45:47 [wendyreid]
... tree identicality, we are not expecting tree interoperability at this point
10:46:00 [wendyreid]
... platform-specific accessibility APIs are not in scope, yet
10:46:15 [wendyreid]
... testing accessibility features or ATs is not part of this effort
10:46:21 [wendyreid]
... we're not automating VoiceOver for example
10:46:40 [CharlesL]
q+
10:46:43 [wendyreid]
... another group has a presentation today working on something called AT Driver, there's overlap here, but we're not doing that
10:46:56 [wendyreid]
... this portion of the presentation will be more fleshed out tomorrow, when we talk to browser testing tools
10:47:05 [wendyreid]
... one discussion of what web driver might look like
10:47:34 [wendyreid]
Matt_King: It's not expected to be live, I was not following what you meant
10:47:58 [wendyreid]
jcraig: Thanks, I'm trying my best to avoid words like interface or method, I'm talking about these things conceptually
10:48:15 [Wolfgang]
q?
10:48:16 [daniel-montalvo]
daniel-montalvo has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:48:19 [wendyreid]
... sometimes when you explore a new web interface, there are refs or things you can call into
10:48:44 [wendyreid]
... in the case of WebDriver, it's a server-client relationship where you call out to the backing web server and giving an ID and getting a property back
10:48:57 [BrianE]
BrianE has joined #interop-2023-a11y
10:48:57 [wendyreid]
... it's not like you could observe a change on that element, to do so you'd need to make a request back
10:49:40 [wendyreid]
???: You have a test, you get an object, you go to the node interface, test runs, the accessibility interface may destroy the old content, and you'd need to re-request
10:49:52 [wendyreid]
Matt_King: The objects you're getting are from the accessibility tree?
10:50:03 [wendyreid]
jcraig: The browser's representation
10:50:10 [wendyreid]
???: It's not platform specific
10:50:23 [wendyreid]
jcraig: Hidden and shown again, a completely new identifier
10:50:34 [wendyreid]
Matt_King: You can't rely on the unseen behaviour of the layer
10:50:44 [wendyreid]
???: You can't rely on the underlying DOM
10:50:54 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
10:50:56 [Wilco]
q+
10:51:14 [spectranaut_]
s/???/aaronlev/g
10:51:41 [wendyreid]
CharlesL: On the last slide, one of the points mentioned platform specific was not going to be test
10:51:49 [aaronlev]
??? = Aaron Leventhal
10:51:52 [wendyreid]
... a chrome implementation, you're not testing windows vs mac
10:51:59 [wendyreid]
... would the tests really show that?
10:52:23 [wendyreid]
... for role, you're expecting doc-chapter, depending on mac or windows, those results would be identifiable
10:52:30 [wendyreid]
... just trying to understand why that would not work?
10:52:50 [wendyreid]
jcraig: I'll go back to the slide on the web automation stack
10:53:41 [wendyreid]
... four grey boxes, different types of automation, platform-specific (Mac AX roles), client-side automation (axe-core), in the browser internals it would be the same for both
10:53:52 [wendyreid]
... the only standard we have is what is the computed ARIA role for this element
10:54:00 [wendyreid]
... does this element have a role of heading
10:54:13 [wendyreid]
... but it's different from an AX role of heading or a Windows role of heading
10:54:25 [wendyreid]
... we're testing the web specific portion of the stack, not the platform on
10:54:29 [wendyreid]
s/on/one/
10:54:47 [wendyreid]
... here is a specific web test, WPT can't do this kind of platform testing well
10:54:58 [wendyreid]
????: We try to avoid that kind of thing
10:55:19 [wendyreid]
jcraig: The CI implementation on that is a linux machine, so it's not even running those platform APIs
10:55:27 [wendyreid]
Wilco: I had 2 questions
10:55:35 [zcorpan]
s/????/jgraham/
10:55:58 [wendyreid]
... this sounds to me like [?] has with (sorry I missed this)
10:56:10 [wendyreid]
... have you thought about what ARIA is doing with pulling language or table structure?
10:56:20 [wendyreid]
jcraig: I hadn't personally thought of the lang attributes
10:56:29 [wendyreid]
... I know VO will switch languages
10:56:36 [matatk]
s/????: We/jgraham: We/
10:56:40 [zcorpan]
q+
10:56:49 [wendyreid]
... it's doing that because there is a WPT for it
10:57:22 [wendyreid]
... anything with reference to accessibility, and
10:57:41 [wendyreid]
... repeating the first question, CP, the Chrome Dev Tools, James Graham, does that align?
10:57:51 [zcorpan]
s/CP/CDP/
10:57:52 [wendyreid]
... this particular section about the web driver potential extension
10:58:02 [wendyreid]
... I don't know as much about it as the others
10:58:13 [wendyreid]
... one recommendation was to put this on the bidi roadmap
10:58:28 [wendyreid]
jgraham_: I can answer but it might not be worth taking up time
10:58:33 [wendyreid]
jcraig: We can discuss tomorro
10:58:59 [wendyreid]
Simon: Web Driver bidi, (missed)
10:59:14 [wendyreid]
Simon: adding to the language question, the content language, set with the lang attribute
10:59:18 [wendyreid]
... it's already testable
10:59:26 [wendyreid]
... it can be tested in WPT today
10:59:48 [wendyreid]
jcraig: Browser internal accessibility it's going to be platform specific
11:00:00 [wendyreid]
... you can test it in the browser, but should we test it in accessibility
11:00:09 [wendyreid]
[cross-chatter]
11:00:31 [wendyreid]
%%%: There are bugs and ambiguities to test
11:00:34 [zcorpan]
ack zcorpan
11:00:43 [spectranaut_]
s/%%%/jamesn/
11:00:45 [wendyreid]
jcraig: This will be more fleshed out in the webdriver session tomorrow
11:00:58 [wendyreid]
... we need either a new method for specific web driver extension
11:01:15 [Wilco]
ack wilco
11:01:24 [wendyreid]
jcraig: Potentially be a web opt-in extension
11:01:40 [wendyreid]
... because there is so much in accessibility, we don't want to ask web driver to update piecemeal
11:01:55 [wendyreid]
... we need a method on the existing web driver interface to get a node
11:02:10 [wendyreid]
... this is a way to reconcile if you have an accessibility object
11:02:24 [wendyreid]
... if there is a relationship between an object and node we need to get at it
11:02:39 [wendyreid]
... ways to get an web driver ID from a node
11:03:04 [wendyreid]
... this is a potential sample JSON object [slide]
11:03:10 [wendyreid]
... label, role, parent
11:03:13 [wendyreid]
... ids for each
11:03:19 [wendyreid]
... checkstate, requiredstate
11:03:29 [wendyreid]
... way to synthesize an event on an accessibility node
11:03:47 [wendyreid]
... minimum payload would be the notification type
11:03:54 [jgraham_]
q+
11:03:54 [wendyreid]
... focus, press, actions
11:04:03 [wendyreid]
... open questions
11:04:19 [wendyreid]
... why return property bag instead of calls per property
11:04:32 [wendyreid]
... there could be a lot of property values, especially for some tests
11:04:41 [wendyreid]
... would fit closer with current web driver interface
11:04:58 [wendyreid]
... are accessibility id refs implementable in an interoperable manner?
11:05:12 [wendyreid]
... depending on the longevity of the references, some aren't possible yet?
11:05:33 [wendyreid]
... what about testing accessibility of related native features like `inert`?
11:05:40 [wendyreid]
... good questions everyone
11:05:42 [zcorpan]
q?
11:05:56 [wendyreid]
ack jgraham_
11:06:20 [wendyreid]
jgraham_: Make a few comments, first one is that if you have time for discussion, let's make it happen?
11:06:27 [wendyreid]
[scheduling]
11:07:34 [wendyreid]
jgraham_: Of the details, you mentioned bidi, a lot of this is a fit for bidi, for the DOM tree, we more accurately represent that in bidi
11:07:34 [wendyreid]
... it becomes complicated to work with
11:07:35 [wendyreid]
... I will definitely think about this, classic web driver will be the way to get this working in all browsers
11:07:53 [wendyreid]
... its' also worth thinking about what you actually want this to look like, then determine protoals
11:08:02 [wendyreid]
... looks at existing [?] actions
11:08:22 [wendyreid]
... it moves from point to point, presses, it might fit with that instead of a new endpoint?
11:08:33 [wendyreid]
jcraig: It's critical we go through the accessibility node
11:08:51 [wendyreid]
jgraham_: If you want it to be this source, performs this action, it can represent that
11:09:03 [wendyreid]
jcraig: For bidi vs web driver, I'll do what Sam things is best
11:09:22 [wendyreid]
jgraham_: Do what's best for browsers, what worries me, if we have this stuff, web authors may use it for their own tests
11:09:35 [wendyreid]
... but not accessibility, it gives them information that's hard to get other ways
11:09:53 [wendyreid]
... having things like "is this completely implemented, defined", it could be a risk
11:10:10 [wendyreid]
... be more specific about what the integration is or browser specific
11:10:16 [wendyreid]
jcraig: I think we're align on what we want
11:10:23 [wendyreid]
... webkit has an intermediary accessibility node
11:10:39 [wendyreid]
... differences would be tree relationships, different parent, but can still get into ut
11:10:56 [wendyreid]
... if a web author hits that, it may need notes in the TODOs, they can fix their tests
11:11:02 [wendyreid]
jgraham_: [missed this]
11:11:08 [zcorpan]
q?
11:11:20 [wendyreid]
jcraig: Anyone jones-ing to write accessibility WPT tests?
11:11:24 [wendyreid]
[hands!]
11:11:25 [jgraham_]
s/[missed this]/it's definitely difficult if it's different tree structures/
11:11:42 [wendyreid]
Wilco: Question, accessibility conformance testing taskforce
11:11:59 [wendyreid]
... writes a lot of rules that are picked up in testing, we're having a hard time to track what works where
11:12:10 [wendyreid]
... this will help us figure that out, and we can help with gaps
11:12:19 [wendyreid]
jcraig: The arrangement of testing is by spec
11:12:27 [wendyreid]
... line-by-line we go through the requirements
11:12:37 [wendyreid]
... it would be good to have tests for WCAg
11:12:50 [wendyreid]
... the tests are similar if structured differently
11:13:00 [wendyreid]
... ARIA vs WCAG, we say a lot of bugs in testing
11:13:06 [bfeigel]
bfeigel has joined #interop-2023-a11y
11:13:06 [wendyreid]
Wilco: I believe that!
11:13:13 [CharlesL]
CharlesL has left #interop-2023-a11y
11:13:16 [wendyreid]
jcraig: Thanks everyone for your time, email me!
11:13:28 [wendyreid]
... contact me via the W3C slack too
11:13:45 [alexrudenko_]
present-
11:13:54 [wendyreid]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
11:13:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-minutes.html wendyreid
11:30:19 [jcraig]
Slides: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0eciRqzy6aGWyffs7OXZbkz8w#AccessibilityAutomation_2023SeptTPAC
11:30:38 [Roy]
Roy has joined #interop-2023-a11y
11:30:49 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:30:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-minutes.html jcraig
11:34:04 [jcraig]
s/doing that because there is a WPT for it/doing that because there is an attribute for it in the platform accessibility API/
11:34:21 [jcraig]
s/acessibility/accessibility/g
11:35:54 [jcraig]
s/a proposed solution we've been discussing with the browser testing /a potential solution we'll be discussing tomorrow with the browser testing /
11:36:44 [jcraig]
s/web group/web group so many of you know this background already/
11:37:36 [matatk]
matatk has joined #interop-2023-a11y
11:38:32 [jcraig]
s/ javascript, then the webkit/ javascript, then the rendering engine's implementation/
11:38:58 [jcraig]
s/the implementation inside webkit/in Safari's case, the implementation inside webkit/
11:39:35 [jcraig]
s/bends properties/vends properties/
11:40:40 [jcraig]
s/windows has UI Automation/both Windows and Mac have UIAutomation (though different ones)/
11:41:06 [jcraig]
s/Deque's axe-core/such as Deque's axe-core/
11:42:14 [jcraig]
s/video codecs, accessibility investigation/video codecs, inert, pointer events, accessibility investigation/
11:43:32 [jcraig]
s/Gecko hadn't implemented then/Gecko hadn't implemented the webdriver interface in April, but did in May/
11:44:19 [jcraig]
s/about 620 web accessibility tests running in CI builds/620 web accessibility tests running in the CI environments of every major browser engine on the planet/
11:45:26 [jcraig]
s/accessibility names spec, AAM, ARIA,/accessibility names spec (AccName), HTML-AAM, ARIA,/
11:45:58 [jcraig]
s/new infinitives to writing these tests/new incentives to writing these tests/
11:48:07 [jcraig]
s/we have a team of about a dozen/we have a team of about a dozen from all over: Bocoup, Igalia, Apple, Adobe, Google, Salesforce, etc/
11:48:33 [matatk]
matatk has joined #interop-2023-a11y
11:49:18 [jcraig]
s/reigning ARIA attributes/remaining ARIA attributes/
11:50:03 [jcraig]
s/could we have an interoperable accessibility tree?/People wondered: could we have an interoperable accessibility tree in 2023?/
11:50:27 [jcraig]
s/I don't think it will happen this year,/It won't happen this year,/
11:51:04 [jcraig]
s/worth test interface/worthy test interface/
11:51:55 [jcraig]
s/browsers agree on the following details/WPT Accessibility stakeholders agree on the following details/
11:53:18 [jcraig]
s/not expected to be live/not expected to be live (probably a snapshot object aka "property bag")/
11:53:37 [jcraig]
s/property back instead/property bag instead/
11:55:03 [jcraig]
s/there's overlap here, but we're not doing that/there's overlap with some of the people working on the other one, but it's not in scope for this effort/
11:57:27 [jcraig]
s/The objects you're getting are from the accessibility tree?/The objects you're getting are from the platform accessibility tree?/
11:58:14 [jcraig]
s/The browser's representation/No, it's getting the browser's internal representation of the tree, before it makes it out to the platform./
11:59:32 [matatk]
matatk has joined #interop-2023-a11y
11:59:56 [jcraig]
s/Hidden and shown again, a completely new identifier/another example, if you were to hide an element and show it again, the backing accessibility node would likely have a completely new identifier, and bear no relationship to the previous accessibility node that was exposed./
12:00:39 [Roy]
Roy has joined #interop-2023-a11y
12:02:04 [jcraig]
s/AX role of heading or a Windows role of heading/AXRole of AXHeading on Mac, or a Windows role of heading in the windows-specific platform accessibility API/
12:02:33 [jcraig]
s/We try to avoid that kind of thing/WPT tries to avoid that kind of thing/
12:02:47 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:02:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-interop-2023-a11y-minutes.html jcraig
12:04:10 [jcraig]
s/we're testing the web specific portione of the stack, not the platform on/in this case it's testing the web-engine-specific portion of the stack, not the platform one/
12:05:01 [jcraig]
s/anything with reference to accessibility/so anything with relevance to accessibility should be tested here, not just the ARIA stuff/
12:05:39 [jcraig]
s/I don't know as much about it as the others/I don't know as much about it as the others, maybe James Graham or Sam Sneddon?/
12:10:12 [jcraig]
s/web opt-in extension/web driver extension/