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06:37:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-dom-localization-irc
06:37:37 <Ian> RRSAgent, do not leave
06:37:37 <Ian> RRSAgent, make logs public
06:38:08 <Ian> Meeting: DOM Localization
06:38:40 <Ian> Chair: eemeli
06:38:40 <Ian> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/52
06:38:40 <Ian> clear agenda
06:38:40 <Ian> agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:38:40 <Ian> agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:38:40 <Ian> agenda+ Goal of this session
06:38:40 <Ian> agenda+ Discussion
06:38:40 <Ian> agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
06:38:40 <Ian> Ian has left #dom-localization
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07:08:05 <Ian> RRSAgent, do not leave
07:08:28 <Ian> RRSAgent, make logs public
07:08:32 <Ian> Ian has left #dom-localization
07:10:34 <Ian> Ian has joined #dom-localization
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07:36:02 <Mu-An> present+
07:36:14 <annevk> scribe: annevk
07:36:21 <annevk> Topic: DOM Localization
07:36:59 <annevk> eemeli: I've been working on localization systems for about a decade, but not so much in W3C/WHATWG space.
07:38:34 <annevk> eemeli: [Goes through slides, explains current flow and possible future flow.]
07:39:34 <annevk> eemeli: Main goal is to enable client-side localization without scripting.
07:42:37 <annevk> eemeli: Unicode is working on a MessageFormat 2, which provides some of the infrastructure needed for declarative localization
07:42:45 <annevk> s/on a/on/
07:44:57 <annevk> eemeli: [asking the room] Should we do this? And how should we do this if so?
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07:45:16 <Domenic> q+
07:46:03 <annevk> Domenic: I would love to learn more about the use case. In particular why we need client-side localization and cannot use the server.
07:46:40 <annevk> eemeli: We have an implementation of this functionality in Firefox, called Fluent.
07:47:20 <Mu-An> q+
07:48:22 <annevk> Domenic: I think the experience would be better with server-side translated content.
07:49:19 <annevk> q- Domenic
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07:50:13 <annevk> Mu-An: If localization is not thought about early it's really hard to add it to a website. Having it standardized would make adoption easier.
07:50:52 <annevk> Domenic: If we implemented this in the server you could get the same developer experience, but a better user experience.
07:51:15 <annevk> Carlos: many websites already do this client-side, but they don't have a good implementation of this functionality.
07:51:42 <annevk> Carlos: Are localization files load-blocking?
07:51:52 <annevk> eemeli: I think that's a question we have to answer.
07:52:03 <annevk> q- Mu-An
07:52:19 <annevk> q+ aphilips
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07:52:36 <addison> q?
07:53:02 <annevk> q- aphilips
07:53:43 <annevk> addison: We clearly have web servers that can handle this. Proof is out there. But there are other kinds of web apps that could use this.
07:55:11 <annevk> littledan: Organization-wise it might be nice to be able to organize your content in this way.
07:55:15 <annevk> q+ annevk
07:57:40 <annevk> annevk: I think we should approach this differently. We should start out with a web components library and see if that gets adopted widely.
07:57:45 <addison> "Fluent"
07:57:49 <Bert> present+
07:58:13 <annevk> annevk: We would also need new primitives in the DOM to do this properly, such as DOM parts.
07:58:27 <addison> present+
07:59:07 <annevk> Domenic: Not entirely sure we need DOM parts for this.
07:59:15 <Bert> RRSAgent, pointer?
07:59:15 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-dom-localization-irc#T07-59-15
08:00:10 <annevk> Domenic: A question here would be how complex the DOM mutations are going to be?
08:00:36 <annevk> [littledan mentioned some more advanced features of MessageFormat 2 I missed, but they would complicate it a bit more.]
08:01:58 <annevk> Thomas: DOM structure has to stay the same.
08:03:14 <annevk> littledan: At what point does it make sense to add it to the browser?
08:05:47 <Mu-An> q+
08:06:17 <annevk> littledan: is the locale-negotiation driven by the browser or the website?
08:10:05 <annevk> q-
08:11:08 <annevk> Mu-An: Maybe there could be more indication in the HTML to allow for different links for instance, depending on the language.
08:12:42 <annevk> annevk: Is there a way for an attribute to reference something in MessageFormat 2?
08:12:57 <annevk> [littledan helpfully clarifies]
08:13:03 <annevk> q-
08:13:10 <annevk> q- Mu-An
08:13:22 <annevk> eemeli: That's an open question.
08:14:24 <annevk> Thomas: I think typically you'd localize everything
08:14:31 <annevk> eemeli: I can imagine certain scenarios
08:14:39 <annevk> [<img alt>?]
08:16:46 <annevk> [Some discussion about design particulars.]
08:19:42 <annevk> Domenic: [suggests using ID instead of l10n attribute]
08:20:01 <annevk> Thomas: that might be problematic as currently the value of that attribute is a hash of what is localized
08:20:13 <annevk> eemeli: That's probably still malleable and using ID might be good
08:21:18 <annevk> Carlos: potentially we could use Selectors, not sure about perf
08:22:57 <annevk> Domenic: it seems like a separate namespace for identifying a piece of localizable content has a bunch of benefits based on this discussion
08:23:48 <annevk> Thomas: It's kinda like ARIA where you want to have your own set of attributes
08:26:53 <addison> q?
08:28:21 <hsivonen> only "hash" got minuted, but it was an important point that it's common to have a retranslation trigger process where any change to the original (the language that developers write and that is the source of translation) requires a change of the localization key (not necessary a hash, could be appending a number).
08:28:29 <Domenic> q+ with closing advice
08:28:43 <Domenic> q+ to provide closing advice
08:29:46 <annevk> littledan: One thing that's kinda missing from here is how you pass parameters in. Not sure how you do this in Fluent?
08:30:17 <annevk> eemeli: [explains, finding Fluent documentation left as an exercise for the reader]
08:33:12 <annevk> Domenic: fairly repeatable process for adding platform features. 1) Motivate use cases better. 2) Going through the tricky cases and identify what your proposed solution is.
08:34:16 <annevk> eemeli: Intentionally came with an incomplete proposal to find collaborators to finish it.
08:34:30 <annevk> Thomas: I think it's worth solving. Lots of legacy code that's incompatible.
08:34:57 <annevk> RRSAgent: make minutes
08:34:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-dom-localization-minutes.html annevk