IRC log of a11yedge on 2023-09-13

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-a11yedge-irc
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RRSAgent, do not leave
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: Accessibility at the Edge, One Year On
06:36:47 [Ian]
Chair: Janina Sajka, Lionel Wolberger
06:36:49 [Ian]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/51
06:36:51 [Ian]
clear agenda
06:36:53 [Ian]
agenda+ Pick a scribe
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agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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agenda+ Goal of this session
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agenda+ Discussion
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agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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present+
07:32:49 [ben_tillyer]
present+
07:32:53 [Lionel]
zakim start meeting
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zakim, start meeting
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RRSAgent, make logs Public
07:33:02 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Lionel
07:33:52 [Lionel]
meeting: TPAC Breakout Session 2024
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07:33:53 [Lionel]
scribe+
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present+
07:34:36 [kevin]
present+
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07:34:50 [ben_tillyer]
https://w3c.zoom.us/j/88565162415?pwd=U081cEQvSFRZOTRSV0h3dE94cXBFZz09
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present+
07:35:38 [mitch11]
scribe+ mitch11
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Present+
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present+
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present+
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07:43:05 [ben_tillyer]
(Would rather type than speak) Hello, I am an invited export and active member of AG WG
07:43:25 [atai]
present+ Andreas_Tai
07:44:49 [ben_tillyer]
s/export/expert
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07:45:22 [mitch11]
Lionel: any objections to recording? none
07:45:44 [Lionel]
Introductions were done
07:45:53 [Lionel]
topic: what we have done the last year
07:46:00 [Lionel]
See https://a11yedge.github.io/capabilities/
07:46:10 [shawn]
present+ Shawn(part)
07:46:41 [Lionel]
janina: After many meetings we started centering in on a list of capabilities that overlays and edge technologies can do
07:46:49 [Lionel]
... We grouped them into high level categories
07:47:04 [Lionel]
... we went from spreadsheets to HTML
07:47:17 [Lionel]
... added a <definition> list semantics
07:47:33 [Lionel]
... the definition list for each capability was "source" or "edge"
07:47:37 [Lionel]
... "trade-offs"
07:48:07 [Lionel]
... There is good agreement that source is the best place for most things
07:48:15 [Lionel]
... so what drives edge activity?
07:48:34 [Lionel]
... one main driver, the Internet Almanac evidence that sites have tens if not over 50 third party services
07:48:41 [Lionel]
... that only mash up and work at the edge
07:48:49 [Lionel]
... overlays may be the solution for part of them
07:49:08 [Lionel]
... We realized opportunities, patterns
07:49:09 [Lionel]
q?
07:49:36 [Lionel]
... some patterns are aspirational, capabilities we look forward to having but may be many years out
07:49:56 [Lionel]
... For example, "Kill Captcha" agenda, captcha being such a barrier to accessibility
07:50:16 [Lionel]
... having trusted third parties perhaps managing a profile for desired services
07:50:33 [Lionel]
... The analysis that the CG has succeeded in curating can be used as a checklist
07:50:54 [Lionel]
... It could be used to analyze a particular overlay service, and be specific about what it does well and what it does not
07:51:14 [Lionel]
... APA is interested in continuing this work stream, perhaps forming a task force
07:51:27 [Lionel]
... We have in APA low vision users, screen reader users
07:51:48 [Lionel]
... in general APA is interested in facilitating personalization, the act of personalizing or making web experiences more suitable to an individual
07:51:55 [Lionel]
... indivisual's needs
07:52:08 [Lionel]
... Imagine that you can configure your needs once, and apply it to all sites
07:52:25 [Lionel]
... why should I have to configure my desires at Company A, then Company B, Then Website C
07:52:37 [Lionel]
... the computer is supposed to serve the user, not the user serve the computer
07:52:48 [Lionel]
... a portable profile seems like a good thing
07:53:47 [Lionel]
Wilco: I would like to dig into privacy concerns
07:54:03 [mitch11]
I'll scribe now
07:54:38 [mitch11]
Lionel: next we'll do a deep dive of capabilities draft report
07:55:10 [mitch11]
... moving to a word 'edge' that is less loaded
07:55:27 [mitch11]
s/is less loaded/avoids triggering assumptions/
07:56:28 [mitch11]
... showing the technology diagram https://www.w3.org/community/a11yedge/
07:58:04 [mitch11]
...major headings: meeting user's needs; meeting content provider's needs
07:58:23 [mitch11]
we applied user-centered design
07:58:39 [mitch11]
...we applied user-centered design
07:58:50 [mitch11]
...(summarizing the doc linked above)
07:59:38 [mitch11]
..."sometimes content changes dynamically" is an outdated phrase from WCAG, it has flipped
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08:01:06 [mitch11]
...summarizing https://a11yedge.github.io/capabilities/
08:02:24 [mitch11]
..."trade-offs" is a work in progress, would like to acknowledge advantages more
08:03:39 [mitch11]
...highlighting the "Text Transformations" section in the doc, e.g. font size widget on whitehouse.gov
08:05:18 [mitch11]
...source code is a determinant of font size, including third-party sources in pages
08:06:45 [ben_tillyer]
Suggestion: A section named "Benefit of being in the source" or "Negatives to being in the edge" for each section, to ensure balanced views are expressed and understood for each point
08:07:42 [kevin]
q+ to ask if all capabilities are in the right place
08:08:37 [mitch11]
subtopic: aspirational
08:08:37 [mitch11]
... summarizing the section "Fully Automated Transformations"
08:09:52 [mitch11]
q?
08:10:00 [matatk]
q?
08:10:07 [Lionel]
q?
08:10:14 [Lionel]
ack kevin
08:10:14 [Zakim]
kevin, you wanted to ask if all capabilities are in the right place
08:10:33 [Lionel]
Kevin: I have skimmed the document
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08:10:55 [Lionel]
... for each capability, what discussion was conducted whether or not the edge is the right place for this capability
08:11:04 [Lionel]
... for example, font optimization may be best handled by the browser
08:11:15 [Lionel]
... that meets the 'configure once, use everywhere' approach
08:11:18 [Wilco]
q+
08:11:22 [CharlesL]
q+
08:11:26 [Lionel]
... then the SP is not beholden to including an overlay on their service
08:11:48 [Lionel]
janina: We did talk about that. If it was singular that would be very, very true
08:11:56 [Lionel]
... the browser does count as edge tech
08:12:05 [Lionel]
... but the phone is an app, the desktop has multiple browsers
08:12:24 [Lionel]
... we see propagation as needed into all the different device-specific browser agents
08:12:30 [Lionel]
q?
08:12:44 [Lionel]
David: Suggest we clarify further user agencay
08:12:46 [Lionel]
q?
08:12:53 [Lionel]
ack Wilco
08:13:04 [Lionel]
Wilco: we talked about privacy a lot in last year's session
08:13:23 [Lionel]
... a lot of people don't feel comfortable coming out with a disability to unknown third parties
08:13:33 [ben_tillyer]
+1 to Wilco's comment, myself and my peers have this concern
08:13:35 [Lionel]
... not comfortable with organizations
08:15:03 [ben_tillyer]
q+
08:15:52 [mitch11]
q+
08:17:01 [Wilco]
q+
08:17:34 [mitch11]
q-
08:17:43 [mitch11]
q?
08:18:26 [Lionel]
ack CharlesL
08:19:02 [Lionel]
Lionel: Very committed to privacy personally and will continue to express this here
08:19:11 [Lionel]
... I follow this draft note, https://w3c-ccg.github.io/data-minimization/
08:20:16 [mitch11]
CharlesL: concern that the doc doesn't go far enough to warn against perception that fully automated add-ons solve all problems
08:20:44 [Lionel]
q?
08:20:58 [Lionel]
ack ben_tillyer
08:21:13 [Lionel]
ben_tillyer: I also am interested in privacy
08:21:23 [Lionel]
... I do not have time to read all privacy policies on the web
08:21:44 [Lionel]
... even if I could read them, I would not understand them as they are written in legalese
08:22:07 [Lionel]
... regarding "set once use everywhere" seems to imply that one company might have a monopoly on this
08:22:46 [Lionel]
... if there is no monopoly in the edge space, there will be multiple providers
08:23:01 [Lionel]
... I think users can be identified by CDN and other data
08:23:20 [Lionel]
janina: the big players are each trying to be 'your one stop shop' on this
08:23:33 [Lionel]
... the Edge Community Group vision is a bit wider
08:23:57 [Lionel]
... there are enough emerging and already existing W3C technology to enable you to choose who will be your proxy agent in this 'configure once, use everywhere'
08:24:13 [Lionel]
... we discussed that NGOs and advocacy groups could take this role
08:24:16 [Lionel]
q?
08:24:43 [Lionel]
ack Wilco
08:25:06 [mitch11]
Wilco: user agency is currently through the browser, which I can switch.
08:25:27 [mitch11]
... but this technology proposed is chosen by the website not by the user
08:25:43 [mitch11]
... am I not expected to disclose disability?
08:26:25 [mitch11]
Lionel: Some providers require clicking a button to enable, which reveals something. Others apply modifications same for all users.
08:26:51 [mitch11]
... User choice for privacy in choosing products
08:27:27 [mitch11]
... Compare Apple: widely regarded as more privacy preserving, yet terms and conditions are voluminous
08:27:41 [Lionel]
q?
08:27:42 [mitch11]
q?
08:28:02 [mitch11]
subtopic: next steps
08:28:23 [mitch11]
q+
08:28:47 [Lionel]
ack mitch11
08:29:02 [Lionel]
Janina: shall we break out the aspirational capabilites?
08:29:19 [Lionel]
mitch11: That can be time based. Can say, we were considering this on this date, and now find it aspirational
08:29:39 [kevin]
q+
08:29:58 [mitch11]
q?
08:30:01 [Lionel]
ack mitch11
08:30:08 [Lionel]
ack kevin
08:30:12 [Lionel]
ack mitch
08:30:14 [Lionel]
q?
08:30:34 [Lionel]
Kavin: a challenge that overlays has presented. Some organizations may have led to overlays getting a bad name.
08:30:55 [Lionel]
... we need to weigh in, more of whether each item is needed and if there's a right way to do it
08:31:26 [alastairc]
s/if there's a right way to do it/if it's being done in the best place
08:31:43 [matatk]
+1 to Kevin
08:31:53 [Lionel]
... there may be a place to increase privacy, as handling at the edge is closer to the user
08:32:10 [Lionel]
... make clear 'this could be done at the edge, but there may be a better way to do it'
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rrsagent, sraft minutes
08:55:19 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'sraft minutes', shawn. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:55:24 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:55:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-a11yedge-minutes.html shawn
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-a11yedge-minutes.html Lionel
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rrsagent, make minutes
09:06:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-a11yedge-minutes.html Lionel
09:06:59 [Lionel]
agenda?
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