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06:36:43 <Ian> RRSAgent, do not leave
06:36:44 <Ian> RRSAgent, make logs public
06:36:45 <Ian> Meeting: Accessibility at the Edge, One Year On
06:36:47 <Ian> Chair: Janina Sajka, Lionel Wolberger
06:36:49 <Ian> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/51
06:36:51 <Ian> clear agenda
06:36:53 <Ian> agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:36:55 <Ian> agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:36:57 <Ian> agenda+ Goal of this session
06:36:59 <Ian> agenda+ Discussion
06:37:01 <Ian> agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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07:32:15 <Lionel> present+
07:32:49 <ben_tillyer> present+
07:32:53 <Lionel> zakim start meeting
07:33:01 <Lionel> zakim, start meeting
07:33:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
07:33:02 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Lionel
07:33:52 <Lionel> meeting: TPAC Breakout Session 2024
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07:33:53 <Lionel> scribe+
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07:34:00 <CharlesL> present+
07:34:36 <kevin> present+
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07:34:50 <ben_tillyer> https://w3c.zoom.us/j/88565162415?pwd=U081cEQvSFRZOTRSV0h3dE94cXBFZz09
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07:35:32 <mitch11> present+
07:35:38 <mitch11> scribe+ mitch11
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07:38:29 <BrianE> Present+
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07:43:05 <ben_tillyer> (Would rather type than speak)   Hello, I am an invited export and active member of AG WG
07:43:25 <atai> present+ Andreas_Tai
07:44:49 <ben_tillyer> s/export/expert
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07:45:22 <mitch11> Lionel: any objections to recording? none
07:45:44 <Lionel> Introductions were done
07:45:53 <Lionel> topic: what we have done the last year
07:46:00 <Lionel> See https://a11yedge.github.io/capabilities/
07:46:10 <shawn> present+ Shawn(part)
07:46:41 <Lionel> janina: After many meetings we started centering in on a list of capabilities that overlays and edge technologies can do
07:46:49 <Lionel> ... We grouped them into high level categories
07:47:04 <Lionel> ... we went from spreadsheets to HTML
07:47:17 <Lionel> ... added a <definition> list semantics
07:47:33 <Lionel> ... the definition list for each capability was "source" or "edge"
07:47:37 <Lionel> ... "trade-offs"
07:48:07 <Lionel> ... There is good agreement that source is the best place for most things
07:48:15 <Lionel> ... so what drives edge activity?
07:48:34 <Lionel> ... one main driver, the Internet Almanac evidence that sites have tens if not over 50 third party services
07:48:41 <Lionel> ... that only mash up and work at the edge
07:48:49 <Lionel> ... overlays may be the solution for part of them
07:49:08 <Lionel> ... We realized opportunities, patterns
07:49:09 <Lionel> q?
07:49:36 <Lionel> ... some patterns are aspirational, capabilities we look forward to having but may be many years out
07:49:56 <Lionel> ... For example, "Kill Captcha" agenda, captcha being such a barrier to accessibility
07:50:16 <Lionel> ... having trusted third parties perhaps managing a profile for desired services
07:50:33 <Lionel> ... The analysis that the CG has succeeded in curating can be used as a checklist
07:50:54 <Lionel> ... It could be used to analyze a particular overlay service, and be specific about what it does well and what it does not
07:51:14 <Lionel> ... APA is interested in continuing this work stream, perhaps forming a task force
07:51:27 <Lionel> ... We have in APA low vision users, screen reader users
07:51:48 <Lionel> ... in general APA is interested in facilitating personalization, the act of personalizing or making web experiences more suitable to an individual
07:51:55 <Lionel> ... indivisual's needs
07:52:08 <Lionel> ... Imagine that you can configure your needs once, and apply it to all sites
07:52:25 <Lionel> ... why should I have to configure my desires at Company A, then Company B, Then Website C
07:52:37 <Lionel> ... the computer is supposed to serve the user, not the user serve the computer
07:52:48 <Lionel> ... a portable profile seems like a good thing
07:53:47 <Lionel> Wilco: I would like to dig into privacy concerns
07:54:03 <mitch11> I'll scribe now
07:54:38 <mitch11> Lionel: next we'll do a deep dive of capabilities draft report
07:55:10 <mitch11> ... moving to a word 'edge' that is less loaded
07:55:27 <mitch11> s/is less loaded/avoids triggering assumptions/
07:56:28 <mitch11> ... showing the technology diagram https://www.w3.org/community/a11yedge/
07:58:04 <mitch11> ...major headings: meeting user's needs; meeting content provider's needs
07:58:23 <mitch11> we applied user-centered design
07:58:39 <mitch11> ...we applied user-centered design
07:58:50 <mitch11> ...(summarizing the doc linked above)
07:59:38 <mitch11> ..."sometimes content changes dynamically" is an outdated phrase from WCAG, it has flipped
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08:01:06 <mitch11> ...summarizing https://a11yedge.github.io/capabilities/
08:02:24 <mitch11> ..."trade-offs" is a work in progress, would like to acknowledge advantages more
08:03:39 <mitch11> ...highlighting the "Text Transformations" section in the doc, e.g. font size widget on whitehouse.gov
08:05:18 <mitch11> ...source code is a determinant of font size, including third-party sources in pages
08:06:45 <ben_tillyer> Suggestion: A section named "Benefit of being in the source" or "Negatives to being in the edge" for each section, to ensure balanced views are expressed and understood for each point
08:07:42 <kevin> q+ to ask if all capabilities are in the right place
08:08:37 <mitch11> subtopic: aspirational
08:08:37 <mitch11> ... summarizing the section "Fully Automated Transformations"
08:09:52 <mitch11> q?
08:10:00 <matatk> q?
08:10:07 <Lionel> q?
08:10:14 <Lionel> ack kevin
08:10:14 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask if all capabilities are in the right place
08:10:33 <Lionel> Kevin: I have skimmed the document
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08:10:55 <Lionel> ... for each capability, what discussion was conducted whether or not the edge is the right place for this capability
08:11:04 <Lionel> ... for example, font optimization may be best handled by the browser
08:11:15 <Lionel> ... that meets the 'configure once, use everywhere' approach
08:11:18 <Wilco> q+
08:11:22 <CharlesL> q+
08:11:26 <Lionel> ... then the SP is not beholden to including an overlay on their service
08:11:48 <Lionel> janina: We did talk about that. If it was singular that would be very, very true
08:11:56 <Lionel> ... the browser does count as edge tech
08:12:05 <Lionel> ... but the phone is an app, the desktop has multiple browsers
08:12:24 <Lionel> ... we see propagation as needed into all the different device-specific browser agents
08:12:30 <Lionel> q?
08:12:44 <Lionel> David: Suggest we clarify further user agencay
08:12:46 <Lionel> q?
08:12:53 <Lionel> ack Wilco
08:13:04 <Lionel> Wilco: we talked about privacy a lot in last year's session
08:13:23 <Lionel> ... a lot of people don't feel comfortable coming out with a disability to unknown third parties
08:13:33 <ben_tillyer> +1 to Wilco's comment, myself and my peers have this concern
08:13:35 <Lionel> ... not comfortable with organizations
08:15:03 <ben_tillyer> q+
08:15:52 <mitch11> q+
08:17:01 <Wilco> q+
08:17:34 <mitch11> q-
08:17:43 <mitch11> q?
08:18:26 <Lionel> ack CharlesL
08:19:02 <Lionel> Lionel: Very committed to privacy personally and will continue to express this here
08:19:11 <Lionel> ... I follow this draft note, https://w3c-ccg.github.io/data-minimization/
08:20:16 <mitch11> CharlesL: concern that the doc doesn't go far enough to warn against perception that fully automated add-ons solve all problems
08:20:44 <Lionel> q?
08:20:58 <Lionel> ack ben_tillyer
08:21:13 <Lionel> ben_tillyer: I also am interested in privacy
08:21:23 <Lionel> ... I do not have time to read all privacy policies on the web
08:21:44 <Lionel> ... even if I could read them, I would not understand them as they are written in legalese
08:22:07 <Lionel> ... regarding "set once use everywhere" seems to imply that one company might have a monopoly on this
08:22:46 <Lionel> ... if there is no monopoly in the edge space, there will be multiple providers
08:23:01 <Lionel> ... I think users can be identified by CDN and other data
08:23:20 <Lionel> janina: the big players are each trying to be 'your one stop shop' on this
08:23:33 <Lionel> ... the Edge Community Group vision is a bit wider
08:23:57 <Lionel> ... there are enough emerging and already existing W3C technology to enable you to choose who will be your proxy agent in this 'configure once, use everywhere'
08:24:13 <Lionel> ... we discussed that NGOs and advocacy groups could take this role
08:24:16 <Lionel> q?
08:24:43 <Lionel> ack Wilco
08:25:06 <mitch11> Wilco: user agency is currently through the browser, which I can switch.
08:25:27 <mitch11> ... but this technology proposed is chosen by the website not by the user
08:25:43 <mitch11> ... am I not expected to disclose disability?
08:26:25 <mitch11> Lionel: Some providers require clicking a button to enable, which reveals something. Others apply modifications same for all users.
08:26:51 <mitch11> ... User choice for privacy in choosing products
08:27:27 <mitch11> ... Compare Apple: widely regarded as more privacy preserving, yet terms and conditions are voluminous
08:27:41 <Lionel> q?
08:27:42 <mitch11> q?
08:28:02 <mitch11> subtopic: next steps
08:28:23 <mitch11> q+
08:28:47 <Lionel> ack mitch11
08:29:02 <Lionel> Janina: shall we break out the aspirational capabilites?
08:29:19 <Lionel> mitch11: That can be time based. Can say, we were considering this on this date, and now find it aspirational
08:29:39 <kevin> q+
08:29:58 <mitch11> q?
08:30:01 <Lionel> ack mitch11
08:30:08 <Lionel> ack kevin
08:30:12 <Lionel> ack mitch
08:30:14 <Lionel> q?
08:30:34 <Lionel> Kavin: a challenge that overlays has presented. Some organizations may have led to overlays getting a bad name.
08:30:55 <Lionel> ... we need to weigh in, more of whether each item is needed and if there's a right way to do it
08:31:26 <alastairc> s/if there's a right way to do it/if it's being done in the best place
08:31:43 <matatk> +1 to Kevin
08:31:53 <Lionel> ... there may be a place to increase privacy, as handling at the edge is closer to the user
08:32:10 <Lionel> ... make clear 'this could be done at the edge, but there may be a better way to do it'
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08:55:19 <shawn> rrsagent, sraft minutes
08:55:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'sraft minutes', shawn.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:55:24 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:55:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-a11yedge-minutes.html shawn
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09:05:33 <Lionel> rrsagent, make minutes
09:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-a11yedge-minutes.html Lionel
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09:06:53 <Lionel> rrsagent, make minutes
09:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-a11yedge-minutes.html Lionel
09:06:59 <Lionel> agenda?
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