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06:31:08 <Ian> Meeting: WebRTC use cases and requirements under high-demanding real-time communication scenarios
06:31:11 <Ian> Chair: Lin Li, Shishen Zhang
06:31:13 <Ian> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/41
06:31:15 <Ian> Slideset: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/breakout_high_demanding_RTC_TPAC/high_demanding_RTC.pdf
06:31:18 <Ian> clear agenda
06:31:19 <Ian> agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:31:24 <Ian> agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:31:24 <Ian> agenda+ Goal of this session
06:31:25 <Ian> agenda+ Discussion
06:31:27 <Ian> agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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07:37:09 <Roy> agenda?
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08:40:13 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:40:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-WebRTC-usecases-minutes.html Roy
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08:57:13 <xfq_> present+
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09:00:12 <xiaoqian> [slide 1]
09:00:21 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:00:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-WebRTC-usecases-minutes.html xiaoqian
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09:06:09 <Roy> scribe: xiaoqian
09:06:09 <xiaoqian> present+
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09:06:09 <McCool> audio is very quiet
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09:06:16 <chunming> present+
09:06:59 <xiaoqian> angel: today there will be 2 presentations, then we will have enough time for questions and discussion
09:06:59 <McCool> much better
09:09:49 <xiaoqian> present+ Lin_Li, Song_Xu, Angel_Li
09:09:49 <MichaelWilson> present+
09:09:58 <xiaoqian> present+ Fraunhofer, McCool, Huaqi_Shan
09:10:16 <xiaoqian> [slides 2]
09:11:28 <xiaoqian> Lin: today we are going to share use cases from 3 companies
09:11:53 <xiaoqian> ... China Mobile, telco operator, for live-streaming of sports events and music concerts
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09:12:05 <angel_> this session is planned to be recorded, any objections?
09:12:05 <xiaoqian> ... also meta verse convention
09:12:45 <xiaoqian> ... ByteDance, will talk about Education live-streaming, e-commerce, next-gen conference
09:12:46 <xiaoqian> ... Alibaba will focus on e-commerce
09:12:56 <xiaoqian> [slide 3]
09:13:08 <xiaoqian> s/[slides 2]/[slides2]
09:13:20 <xiaoqian> s/[slides2]/[slide 2]
09:13:50 <xiaoqian> Lin: a few use cases using "Cloud Box"
09:13:56 <chunming> TPAC Demo relevant to WebRTC and Web&Network IG
09:13:56 <chunming> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/demos/web-networks.html
09:13:56 <chunming> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/demos/distrib-workers.html
09:13:59 <xiaoqian> [slide 4]
09:14:02 <angel_> Lin's slides -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/WebRTC-Use-Cases-and-Requirements-for-RTI.pdf
09:14:29 <xiaoqian> Lin: 5 steps for RTC Cloud
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09:16:27 <xiaoqian> ... during all these process, we have done a lot for optimization
09:16:53 <xiaoqian> [slide 5]
09:17:32 <xiaoqian> Lin: another scenario, live e-commerce, which allows interactive product showcasese
09:18:06 <angel_> present+
09:18:19 <xiaoqian> [slide 6]
09:19:42 <xiaoqian> ... another use case for e-commerce, anchor initiates live streaming via RTC client
09:19:47 <xiaoqian> [slide 7]
09:20:07 <xiaoqian> Lin: next scenario is about Metaverse Convention
09:20:23 <xiaoqian> ... everything is in your browser
09:20:57 <xiaoqian> ... use your mouse to control the view
09:21:31 <xiaoqian> ... kind of a cloud game powered by RTC
09:21:57 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:21:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-WebRTC-usecases-minutes.html Roy
09:22:05 <xiaoqian> ... virtualise the characters
09:22:41 <xiaoqian> ... we call it cloud rendering in the platform
09:22:51 <xiaoqian> [slide 8]
09:23:12 <xiaoqian> Lin: this is the basic steps how we designed this system
09:23:32 <xiaoqian> s/this is/these are
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09:25:19 <xiaoqian> ... we are still using WebRTC, but a cloud based one
09:25:36 <xiaoqian> ... what we call RTC-C
09:26:02 <xiaoqian> ... there are also some other methods to push and to pull
09:26:37 <xiaoqian> [slide 9]
09:26:58 <xiaoqian> Lin: here are a few requirements we collected from these use cases
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09:27:43 <xiaoqian> ... an API to set the duration of frame freeze
09:28:25 <xiaoqian> ... also a few parameters to add to the Statistics API
09:29:58 <xiaoqian> ... when the connection is bad, the estimating freezeCount algorithm couldn't fully meet the needs
09:30:45 <xiaoqian> ... the linear avg. of durations of the last 30 rendered frames is 200ms, which is not take as a freeze
09:30:52 <xiaoqian> [slide 10]
09:31:45 <xiaoqian> Q1: have you file the bug in the spec? what's the bug num?
09:31:52 <xiaoqian> answer: will do
09:33:09 <xiaoqian> Q2: for one particular codec, work is done in some other standard body (IETF), W3C might not be able to do anything about it
09:33:35 <xiaoqian> answer: yes we know, would like to explore a few future steps to solve the problem
09:34:15 <jesup> the cloud game could  pass audio and video for users close to the end user directly to the user, and let the local client merge and decide where/if to display.   Probably one would do this only for a few streams.   The client would need to render the environment and decode N streams, and encode 1 stream.
09:34:54 <xiaoqian> [slide 11]
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09:35:37 <xiaoqian> Lin: one more issue, it always failed to start the audio playback device when iOS app is in the background
09:35:48 <xiaoqian> ... here are the steps to repeat the bug
09:36:45 <xiaoqian> ... the bug was already reported to Chromium
09:36:47 <xiaoqian> -> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/webrtc/issues/detail?id=13406
09:37:11 <xiaoqian> [slide 12]
09:38:13 <jesup> You've reported this bug, good.   There's no W3C work required here I believe; it doesn't change the API visible to JS/user code
09:38:15 <xiaoqian> Lin: as for the next step, we wonder if we can create a certain TF, or in the WNIG, or even a new CG to further discussion these requirements and explore the solutions
09:39:11 <xiaoqian> Angel: next is another presentation from ByteDance
09:39:27 <xiaoqian> ... from Shishen Zhang
09:41:00 <angel_> q?
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09:41:52 <hta> q?
09:46:46 <jesup> q+
09:48:41 <xueyuan> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:48:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-WebRTC-usecases-minutes.html xueyuan
09:51:13 <angel_> ack jes
09:52:05 <xiaoqian> jesup: @@
09:53:21 <xiaoqian> s/@@/why do you need the video there while playing the game?
09:53:44 <xiaoqian> shizhen: the game is using anchors, also they need the live chats
09:54:48 <xiaoqian> Q3: for the game's sake, this is quite similar to what we did for @@, we need a WebRTC CDN, when a lot of user can watch the screen
09:55:40 <xiaoqian> Shishen: they don't want to abandon the CDN
09:55:56 <xiaoqian> ... as it has been used a long time, a lot of vendors still rely on it
09:56:25 <xiaoqian> Song: addition more comments
09:56:42 <xiaoqian> ... the regular CDN is often for board casting
09:57:01 <xiaoqian> ... but the CDN Shishen mentioned was more for general usage
09:57:48 <McCool> q+
09:58:06 <xiaoqian> Q4: there have been some more discussion about key frames
09:58:24 <xiaoqian> Q5: we have an API for picturing the key frames, every 5s
09:58:51 <xiaoqian> ... unless you want more accurate key frames
09:58:53 <jesup> My question was that for many games, it should be possible to run the game as a normal multiple-user game running in all the clients, exchanging data with a server which maintains game state but doesn't render the game.  Rendering is done locally.  In this case, the bandwidth required is far lower, though you would still try to use realtime channels, such as DataChannels.   Audio and video can be shared simultaneously as needed, and the se[CUT]
09:59:09 <xiaoqian> ... but I'm not sure about implementing
09:59:13 <angel_> ack McCool
09:59:44 <xiaoqian> McCool: I have a question about RTCC in the IoT device usage
10:00:19 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
10:00:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-WebRTC-usecases-minutes.html xfq
10:00:26 <xiaoqian> Song: is that about the case 3, the bug in the iOS app in the background?
10:01:17 <xiaoqian> McCool: we can followup later, would like to know more details about the IoT use cases
10:01:50 <xiaoqian> ... please reach out to me
10:02:08 <xiaoqian> Lin: it's a very good question
10:02:29 <xiaoqian> ... in China, a lot of vendor also use similar technologies in the IoT cases
10:02:59 <xiaoqian> McCool: I wonder if anybody have adopted it, and how
10:03:20 <xiaoqian> ... in the IoT, we are also looking at the roadmaps
10:03:21 <jesup> q+
10:03:48 <xiaoqian> ack jesup
10:03:49 <angel_> ack jes
10:04:35 <xiaoqian> jesup: for the car game example, another possible approach to have the video to the stream to the user interacting with others
10:04:54 <xiaoqian> ... mapping any video and audio attached to it
10:05:11 <xiaoqian> ... there may be issues with background noice
10:05:26 <xiaoqian> ... this might help to minimize the delay
10:05:40 <xiaoqian> ... there can be a lot of ways to reduce the latency
10:05:43 <xiaoqian> ... just some advice
10:06:18 <xiaoqian> song: would like to thank all for providing these use cases
10:06:31 <xiaoqian> ... some of them need further discussion
10:06:47 <xiaoqian> ... please write down your use cases and proposals
10:07:00 <xiaoqian> ... so we can followup with the WebRTC WG and the WNIG
10:07:42 <xiaoqian> ... even though these use cases were from 2 very different companies
10:07:46 <angel_> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/demos/web-networks.html
10:08:06 <xiaoqian> ... so I encourage people to look at the demos from the web-networks IG
10:08:47 <jesup> lin: for example, see Hubs
10:08:51 <xiaoqian> ... in the distributed network area
10:09:20 <xiaoqian> Fraunhofer: thanks for the cases
10:09:36 <McCool> q+
10:09:43 <xiaoqian> ... we also want to see more testing in these cases, f.ex., in cloud gaming
10:10:03 <xiaoqian> ... we are also working on other ways other than WebRTC
10:10:11 <xiaoqian> ... like WebTransport
10:10:35 <xiaoqian> ... please also get to us, we like to have more f2f discussion about it
10:10:56 <McCool> (know we are overtime, but I would like to summarize Distributed Workers briefly and relate to WebRTC and edge computing)
10:10:59 <xiaoqian> ... regarding the performance, to improve the UE
10:11:12 <angel_> ack McC
10:11:47 <xiaoqian> McCool: since Distributed Workers is mentioned, I'd like to summarize it
10:12:11 <xiaoqian> ... I have a video for it, please watch it
10:12:23 <xiaoqian> [adjourned]
10:12:27 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:12:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-WebRTC-usecases-minutes.html xiaoqian
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