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06:35:30 <Ian> RRSAgent, do not leave
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06:35:31 <Ian> Meeting: W3C Accessibility Maturity Model Update
06:35:31 <Ian> Chair: David Fazio
06:35:31 <Ian> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/48
06:35:31 <Ian> clear agenda
06:35:31 <Ian> agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:35:33 <Ian> agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:35:35 <Ian> agenda+ Goal of this session
06:35:37 <Ian> agenda+ Discussion
06:35:39 <Ian> agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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09:01:00 <CharlesL> scribe+
09:01:00 <fbedora> +present
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09:01:23 <CharlesL> zakim, start meeting
09:01:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
09:01:24 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), CharlesL
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09:02:35 <CharlesL> meeting: Accessibility Maturity Model Update - TPAC 2023
09:02:35 <Jean-Yves> present+
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09:02:35 <Fazio> present+
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09:05:33 <CharlesL> present+ Janina
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09:06:09 <CharlesL> Fazio: I am David and am the co-chair of this TF with the APA
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09:06:09 <CharlesL> … Why we started this group.
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09:06:09 <fbedora> present+
09:06:09 <BrianE> Present+
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09:06:09 <Marcelo-Paiva> present+
09:06:09 <Len> present+
09:06:09 <CharlesL> … WCAG 3, dashboards being worked on, no 1 and done.  a11y in / out. we want a a11y maturity model
09:06:09 <CharlesL> … we wanted an agnostic model.
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09:06:53 <CharlesL> … maturity model is to provide quality assurance
09:06:59 <CharlesL> … companies come for guidance, we reviewed multiple maturity models from around the world.
09:07:38 <CharlesL> …  shows our Maturity Model Specification
09:09:49 <CharlesL> … added an introduction, and # of use cases
09:09:49 <kakinney> https://www.w3.org/TR/maturity-model/
09:09:49 <CharlesL> … created a TLDR document on the lowdown why / how / what is our maturity model.
09:09:58 <CharlesL> … new update revisted our dimensions now 7 dimensions. Communications, Knowledge and Skills, support, ICT dev life cycle , personnel, procurrement and culture
09:09:58 <CharlesL> … you can follow all WCAG requirements but you may not be fully accessible especially within your own company.
09:10:40 <CharlesL> … from secretaries all the way up the chain to top management, hiring practices, and skilling up everyone, understanding a11y and promoting.
09:12:28 <shawn> @@: @@ issue
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09:12:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
09:12:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
09:12:47 <CharlesL> Janina: reason why in w3c context, in my opinion, an orgaization, from customer facing, internal facing, you fill out a web form, where ever you turn the web is involved. but maturity model gives us a way to track over time and you can catch regressions, and track your a11y accessibility. AGWAG we leveraged their documents.
09:14:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
09:15:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> Meeting: Maturity Model TPAC 2023 breakout
09:15:10 <CharlesL> David: you need clear instructions and feedback on where you are and where you are going. By implementing a maturity model you can track you companies accessibility maturity.  There are other organizations doing it but not as robust.  there are other companies doing these types of maturity models.
09:16:27 <CharlesL> Joice: what components of the dimentions are different than other models?
09:16:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe+
09:16:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> Joyce: what components of the dimensions are ddifferent from other popular models?
09:16:38 <kevin> q?
09:17:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: We are interested in discovering gaps
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09:18:05 <CharlesL> Spreadsheet of model can be found at: https://www.w3.org/TR/maturity-model/#assessment-template-excel
09:18:29 <Marcelo-Paiva> q+ to ask if the maturity model is for the entire organization or if it also aims to measure the accessibility maturity level of teams ie: product, engineering, ux, qa, etc
09:18:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: in the USA the ADA has a clause that 'barriers must be removed as they become readily achievable'
09:18:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the maturity model can help companies do that
09:19:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: EU is requiring organizations to 'demonstrate' their conformance mechanisms
09:19:45 <wendyreid> q?
09:20:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> Joyce: Coming out of W3C rather than an accessibility organization, it makes it more mainstream work and not charity work
09:20:54 <CharlesL> ack Lionel_Wolberger
09:22:05 <CharlesL> Lionel_Wolberger: An aspect that is challenging, the great success of WCAG, REF  by law, section 508, ADA etc.  EU laws point to 2.1. WCAG is a binary and unforgiving list of guideline.  and ref by law now you are violating a law.
09:23:02 <wendyreid> q+
09:23:19 <CharlesL> … we need a way forward, org x doing a maturity model, we need to think about a solution for this.
09:24:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Maturity Model might benefit from a implementation guideline, how to do maturity model and avoid the pitfall that I was referring to
09:24:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
09:24:40 <Amanda_> q+
09:24:41 <CharlesL> Fazio: we need feedback what is missing what do you like, what can be improved.
09:25:06 <CharlesL> ack Marcelo-Paiva
09:25:06 <Zakim> Marcelo-Paiva, you wanted to ask if the maturity model is for the entire organization or if it also aims to measure the accessibility maturity level of teams ie: product,
09:25:09 <Zakim> ... engineering, ux, qa, etc
09:25:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> Marcelo-Paiva: Is it only organization level measuring, or can we measure teams level
09:25:56 <CharlesL> q+ to answer Marcel's question
09:26:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: There was discussion of incorporating this W3C MM into WCAG 3.0
09:26:52 <kevin> q+
09:27:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: ... this model is extensible. Dimensions can be added on.
09:28:44 <CharlesL> ack wendyreid
09:28:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack wendyreid
09:29:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 that Wendy shows it being used in the workplace
09:29:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid: Using this at our workplace, it helps to guage effort
09:29:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... having an assessment method sometimes helps guage current work against our own opinion
09:30:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... In response to Lionel
09:30:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... to Lionel's comment, there are many other countries
09:30:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... AODA for example supports this type of reporting
09:30:33 <Wilco> +1 Wendy, EU requires statements for many orgs too
09:30:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... if we openly disclose shortcomings, it helps communicate and give expectations to users
09:30:48 <alastairc> +1 to Wendy, we've written many public sector accessibility accessibility statements of 'partial conformance', and there's been no wave of law suits
09:31:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... even in the USA it's likely better to be honest than to say broader sunny statements
09:31:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
09:31:58 <alastairc> q+ on WCAG as 'measuring stick', and when you need to get into processes / maturity
09:32:02 <CharlesL> ack Amanda_
09:32:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> Amanda_: UK govt organizations, fully or partially funded by the govt, must indicate where they are working
09:32:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I agree with Lionel there is a risk and a lot of ambulance chasing
09:32:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... it's important to include deficits if possible
09:33:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... UK is a great template: here is a list of errors, and we intend to fix this all by ___
09:33:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: The spreadsheet is experimental right now
09:33:37 <CharlesL> ack me
09:33:38 <Zakim> CharlesL, you wanted to answer Marcel's question
09:33:41 <alastairc> q+ to also mention first mover disadvantage
09:33:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and we would like to create a web form like the W3C accessibility statement generator to facilitate self-reporting
09:34:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: Marcelo's question, can it work on an department level?
09:34:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I applied it to my company
09:34:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we made an OKR for accessibility maturity this year
09:34:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I ask each dept to either self-report, or I guide them through it
09:34:38 <kevin> q- later
09:35:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> wendyreid:  OKR is objective key results
09:35:24 <alastairc> ack me
09:35:24 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on WCAG as 'measuring stick', and when you need to get into processes / maturity and to also mention first mover disadvantage
09:35:29 <CharlesL> ack alastairc
09:35:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: a method to give leaders and teams goals that overall and together roll up to corporate targets
09:36:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> alastairc: Revealing shortfalls can be a risk, if you are alons in it; when everyone does it, that risk will be highly minimized
09:37:19 <shawn> q+ to ask "legislate around this"?
09:37:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... where people have used WCAG (not so much Section 508) at the regulation level, there is some measure of reasonableness
09:37:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... that tends to blunt the explicitness of WCAG
09:38:10 <CharlesL> ack kevin
09:38:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Measuring whether something is accessible is a different problem from measuring whether organizations have policies and processes that support accessibility
09:38:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> kevin: I my role at a governmental level, i was acutely aware of the failure to deliver accessible experiences
09:39:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a good MM fosters an inclusive environment
09:39:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... that is conducive to producing accessible experiences
09:39:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... i used a number of them, and none worked very well IMHO
09:39:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... one issue is the sheer scale. Facing a large org of 15K people, I could not roll up the aggregate behavior to a metric
09:40:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I suspect this will not work as well, though I am open minded
09:40:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... The models are useful for molding and forming policy
09:41:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> s/I my role/in my role
09:41:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> kevin: In my role as a W3C member, I would like to see more explicitness and 'rigidity' as that is what governments seek in a standard that they see as worth adopting
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09:41:43 <Irfan> present+
09:41:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I am not yet behiind this to the level of, 'this one fixes everything'
09:42:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: Please join the group to bring these perspectives to our work
09:42:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... It is extensible, and that answers some of your objections
09:42:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Having one dept following the model is already a win
09:43:09 <alastairc> zakim, make minutes
09:43:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', alastairc
09:43:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... its intention is to influence organizations to develop a 'spoke and wheel' pattern, with a unit responsible for accessible radiating the proper policies and methods
09:43:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> kevin: That spoke-and-whell doesn't work for some organizations
09:43:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... though they did succeed
09:43:31 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:43:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-Maturity-minutes.html CharlesL
09:43:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... organizations vary so widely, and many do not follow the approach advocated or implicit in this model
09:43:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and they do succeed
09:44:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to Kevin, on how different all orgs are
09:44:04 <CharlesL> q?
09:44:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> IMHO the model should indicate that
09:44:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> no one road to success
09:44:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: This is great feedback, and we want your help
09:44:23 <kakinney> q+
09:44:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
09:44:39 <CharlesL> ack shawn
09:44:39 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask "legislate around this"?
09:44:41 <shawn> ack me
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09:45:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> shawn: Did we hear that Legislatures may be exploring the W3C Maturity Model?
09:45:22 <shawn> qq+
09:45:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fazio: Governments and agencies look to W3C for guidelines
09:45:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... they will look to our W3C products to do that
09:45:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... will it happen for sure? no. are we pushing for it? no.
09:46:08 <CharlesL> q?
09:46:12 <CharlesL> ack shawn
09:46:12 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to react to shawn
09:46:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but we remain cognizant of this possible outcome, and are aware of consequences
09:46:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: and potential dangers
09:46:29 <wendyreid> q+
09:46:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> shawn: That raises potential W3C concerns
09:46:42 <alastairc> s/where people have used WCAG (not so much Section 508)/where laws have used WCAG (although not sure about Section 508)
09:46:44 <kevin> s/one issue is the sheer scale/one issue is the range of departments and departmental activities/
09:47:07 <alastairc> s/that tends to blunt the explicitness of WCAG/that tends to blunt the binary-ness of WCAG
09:47:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
09:47:09 <CharlesL> ack kakinney
09:47:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> kakinney: Feedback on the document itslef
09:47:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> s/islef/itself
09:47:39 <alastairc> s/have policies and processes that support accessibility/have policies and processes that support accessibility,  so different documents would be better
09:47:53 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:47:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-Maturity-minutes.html shawn
09:48:34 <wendyreid> q-
09:48:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I would like more use cases, and the titles should convey the type of organization referenced in the use case
09:48:34 <kevin> s/... The models are useful for molding and forming policy//
09:49:21 <shawn> s/ Did we hear that Legislatures may be exploring the W3C Maturity Model?/ Did I  hear you say that there may be legislature around this?
09:49:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> Topic: Implementing Maturity Model at Benetech
09:49:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: I went to departments and presented this spreadsheet
09:49:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... some departments like engineering took it to fill it out on their own
09:50:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... other departments wanted guidance
09:50:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a set of meetings was set
09:50:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... first meeting, 2 hours, to read the support tab
09:50:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a 90 min meeting to read two more dimensions
09:50:27 <kevin> s/I would like to see more explicitness and 'rigidity' as that is what governments seek in a standard that they see as worth adopting/I think there the lack of explicitness and 'rigitiy' makes this different from WCAG. This makes it less useful from a policy or regulation perspective./
09:50:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... final meeting, 1 hour, read the remainder
09:50:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... findings in the customer support team, a number of the dimensions were not applicable
09:50:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the ICT cycle was not applicable
09:51:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the procurement was not applicable
09:51:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... (Charles is screen sharing, and the recording will be available, so we will more lightly minute the rest of the presentation)
09:51:44 <kevin> s/though they did succeed/having that as a desired end point may not be appropriate for all/
09:56:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: The time to implement is important. Are there too many proof points?
09:56:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the task of 'bubbling it up' to the top level, i haven't tackled that yet
09:57:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... (to Kevin's point)
09:57:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
09:57:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-Maturity-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
09:57:30 <CharlesL> q?
09:58:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
09:58:20 <kakinney>  q+
09:58:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> amanda: how do you deal with the 'n/a' non-applicable items
09:59:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: it was n/a at their departmental level. The organization overall needs to deal with this, somewhere, but it's not this department
10:00:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... encourage them to be verbose in the comments
10:00:26 <CharlesL> ack kakinney
10:01:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> kakinney: Who do you go to, what lies with who, that will help with the marketing of this maturity model
10:03:39 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-Maturity-minutes.html CharlesL
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