07:34:15 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star 07:34:19 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-irc 07:34:19 RRSAgent, make logs Public 07:34:20 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin 07:34:36 meeting: RDF-star TPAC meeting 07:34:40 gkellogg has joined #rdf-star 07:35:28 *sighs* overlaid FedID CG, RDF-Star WG, DID WG, Privacy CG, and Web Payments WG 07:36:09 present+ 07:37:12 present+ 07:37:15 present+ 07:37:17 present+ 07:37:21 present+ 07:37:27 present+ 07:38:28 We need to figure out how the dynamic between on-site and remote is going to work... 07:39:11 Hard to tell who is talking in the meeting room. I suggest the meeting be "driven" and chaired from there. 07:39:23 Yes, queue. 07:40:28 present+ 07:40:34 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:40:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 07:40:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:41:14 pfps has joined #rdf-star 07:41:16 present+ 07:41:16 niklasl has joined #rdf-star 07:41:16 enrico has joined #rdf-star 07:41:16 present+ 07:41:16 present+ 07:41:16 present+ 07:41:16 usually best if scribes can be in the big room 07:41:16 doerthe_ has joined #rdf-star 07:41:16 timbl has joined #rdf-star 07:41:16 present+ 07:41:30 scribe+ 07:41:41 topic: introductions 07:41:42 Arnaud has joined #rdf-star 07:41:45 Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star 07:42:03 jyrossi has joined #rdf-star 07:42:07 +present Arnaud Le Hors (IBM) 07:42:09 ktk: sorry for the misunderstanding about my email 07:42:49 ... I didn't mean to start the meeting at 10:30, only the discussion with i18n 07:42:49 present+ jyrossi 07:42:49 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6b4775ff-57d7-497a-a36e-c5f2a2810723/ 07:42:49 TallTed, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6b4775ff-57d7-497a-a36e-c5f2a2810723/ 07:43:10 ora: Ora Lassila, AWS, co-chair of this group. I have been a very active participant of W3C, co-editor of the first RDF spec. 07:44:24 ktk: Adrian Gschwendt, CEA of Zazuko. I didn't feel comfortable at first to be co-chair. 07:44:24 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Sep/0003.html 07:44:24 clear agenda 07:44:24 agenda+ I18N (we are meeting with them at 9 am) 07:44:24 agenda+ Use cases (including a discussion on existing implementations of RDF-Star and their influence on any use cases) 07:44:24 agenda+ Semantics 07:44:24 agenda+ SPARQL EXISTS issue (Andy, I assume this was the one you wanted) 07:44:24 agenda+ Any issues tagged with “discuss-f2f” 07:44:30 TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star TPAC 2023-09-12 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Sep/0003.html 07:44:39 pchampin: Pierre-Antoine Champin, W3C fellow from Inria. Team contact. 07:45:10 AndyS: Andy Seaborne, Apache foundation. Have been implementing RDF stuff, then focused on SPARQL. 07:45:45 enrico: Enrico Franconi, researcher in knowledge representation. Worked in past W3C groups. Interested in the semantics of RDF-star 07:45:49 present+ 07:46:11 Tpt: Thomas Pelissier-Thanon. I have an implementation of SPARQL(-star) in Rust. 07:46:56 fabien_gandon_ has joined #rdf-star 07:46:57 niklasl: Niklas, national library of Sweded. Interested in RDF and JSON-LD. 07:47:39 Dominik_T: Interested in RDF and Property Graph. RDF-star is important in this landscape. 07:47:51 richard-lea: started working on RDF 5 years ago in my PhD. 07:48:15 AZ: associate prof in St-Etienne, France. Interested in the semantics part of RDF-star. 07:48:45 pfps: Invited expert in the group, interested in the semantics of RDF as well as SPARQL 07:48:55 draggett has joined #rdf-star 07:49:20 TallTed: with Openlink Sowftare, involved in all RDF-related groups. Interested in multi-modal data. 07:49:23 present+ 07:50:04 doerthe_: TU Dresden, computantional logics group. Initially interested in N3, but I see some similarity with this group. 07:50:31 Arnaud: AC-rep of IBM, was involved for a long time in RDF-related groups. Not involved in this group, but interested in catching up. 07:51:07 fabien_gandon_: Inria, my group has been implementing RDF since the last century: Corese (implementing SPARQL, SHACL...). We intend to do so for RDF-star. 07:52:01 timbl: I developed the N3 language to make it easy to scribble RDF and talk about it on IRC. 07:52:42 ... Then we put in curly brackets to be able to talk about graphs. There was no model theory for it. 07:54:31 ... The curly brackets in N3 made it possible to express rule, or express metadata about graphs. 07:54:55 ... RDF-star worries me: is it useful to restrict ourselves to talk about only one triple. 07:54:59 s|Sowftare, involved in all RDF-related groups. Interested in multi-modal data|Software, provider of Virtuoso, engine powering public SPARQL endpoints for DBpedia, Uniprot, many others in https://lod-cloud.net/. Involved in most RDF-, SPARQL-, Linked Data-, Identity-, Privacy-related groups. Interested in multi-model data| 07:55:13 ... Making triples a first-class object is counter productive. 07:56:07 jyrossi: Canton Consulting, joined W3C in 2014. Currently diving into Semantic Web tech, and doing a PhD for representing legal rules. 07:56:49 timbl has joined #rdf-star 07:56:56 andrei: univ St Gallen, co-chair of the web agents CG 07:57:21 rem: Rem Collier, I work on multi-agents systems. Co-chair of the web agents CG 07:57:33 s/andrei:/andrei: Andrei Ciortea, 07:57:46 q+ 07:58:01 segura: ... 07:58:13 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:58:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 07:58:24 ora: I'm happy to see so many people. Sad not to be here in person (I was supposed to be). 07:58:42 ... Happy to see people from my past lives. 07:59:04 chair: ora, pchampin 07:59:09 ... Agents were the reason why I got into the semantic web, so happy to see Rem and Andrei here. 07:59:23 topi: Agenda of the day 07:59:33 s/topi: Agenda of the day/ 07:59:42 topic: Agenda of the day 08:00:06 we have a list of big topic (i18n, use-cases, semantics, SPARQL) 08:00:36 s/we have a/ora: we have a 08:00:46 ... then smaller things as issues on github 08:00:53 ... https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/7 08:00:55 timbl has joined #rdf-star 08:01:08 ... and of course, any other business 08:01:25 ktk: challenge of syncing up between on-site and on-line 08:01:55 ... if people on-site discuss things with each other, please bring them up in the call 08:02:24 ora: what's the best way to contact people directly? 08:02:51 ktk: ping on IRC? 08:03:00 s/chair: ora, pchampin/chair: ora, ktk/ 08:03:42 q+ to ask for a time for SPARQL so a guest can join 08:03:50 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:03:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 08:04:09 ktk: maybe make a short summary of where we are? 08:04:20 ora: the WG has taken up the work of the CG 08:04:30 ... https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html 08:05:23 ... he have a few big things, and the bunch of small things 08:05:32 ... the small things are not strictly related to the RDF-star CG. We have a few things to fix in RDF 1.1 and SPARQL 1.1 . 08:05:57 ... One of the big thing is to find a semantics for reification. 08:06:14 aciortea has joined #rdf-star 08:06:21 ... In the original WG, I pointed out that reification was introducing some form of modal logic, 08:06:30 ... and as soon as I said that, nobody wanted to touch it. 08:06:53 rubensworks has joined #rdf-star 08:06:53 present+ timbl, Arnaud 08:07:13 ... To me it is a big discussion, we need to discuss about the semantics of named graphs, statements, groups of statements. 08:07:49 ... We have worked on use-cases; the hope is that in the end, RDF 1.2 reflects the things brouht in these use-cases. 08:08:27 ktk: we need to touch pretty much all RDF specs in existence: a lot of work. 08:09:07 ... gkellogg and AndyS did a tremendous work in bringing old specs up to date with the current formats. 08:09:29 pchampin: we have 18 rec-track documents, plus a few more notes 08:10:09 ktk: a few people outside the group were confused about the existing SPARQL 1.2 WG, which has been renamed to SPARQL-dev. 08:10:40 ... Everyone projects different things onto this group. pfps is keeping us on track . 08:11:17 ... Not sure what we will end up to. RDF 1.2 may become a living standard. 08:11:40 ... Sometimes we get lost in details, hopefully we can take some big issues of the plate today. 08:11:42 q? 08:12:19 timbl: could you add N3 to that long list of documents? 08:12:22 q+ to suggest working *with* N3 WG, rather than picking up N3 ourselves 08:12:25 s/Thomas Pelissier-Thanon/Thomas Pellissier-Tanon/ 08:12:46 ktk: I would like to say yes but I probably shouldn't! 08:13:17 q+ to ask the opinions about the set of syntaxes 08:13:28 ((( ...speaker queue is rather vital for this form of meeting... ))) 08:13:36 doerthe_: I would like to do that too, but I don't think we can sneak it in. 08:13:49 pchampin q+ to talk about the path towards N3 08:14:21 q+ pchampin to talk about the path towards N3 08:14:27 q? 08:14:27 q? 08:14:28 s/pchampin q+ to talk about the path towards N3/ 08:14:32 q+ to talk about the path towards N3 08:14:34 gkellogg has joined #rdf-star 08:15:05 q? 08:15:16 ack ora 08:16:04 isn't having RDF 1.2 match N3 putting the card before the horse? surely an interest group should follow the lead of a working group, not vice-versa 08:16:12 ora: I am not opposed to discussing N3. The best way forward is to bring some use-cases making a point for including N3. 08:16:17 s/card/cart/ 08:16:21 q+ to mention the contrast between reification and named graphs (based on our use cases) 08:16:41 q+ to talk about charter 08:17:14 timbl: [question about bnodes in RDF-sta] 08:17:34 s/RDF-sta/RDF-star 08:17:44 Are we talking about I18N in 10 minutes (10:30)? 08:17:56 q? 08:17:56 ack AndyS 08:17:56 AndyS, you wanted to ask for a time for SPARQL so a guest can join 08:17:56 ora: do not think in terms of design, think in terms of requirements 08:18:03 timbl has joined #rdf-star 08:18:23 AndyS: can we set a specific timeslot for the SPARQL discussion, so that our guest can know when to join? 08:18:58 ... Directly after lunch (14:30) would make sense. 08:19:05 ktk: works for me. 08:19:14 ack TallTed 08:19:14 TallTed, you wanted to suggest working *with* N3 WG, rather than picking up N3 ourselves 08:19:27 re: N3 - can the WG pick up new deliverables without a charter update? I'm afraid not... 08:19:48 Tpt: It would be far more productive to work *with* the N3 CG than trying to pick it up ourselves. 08:20:04 q? 08:20:14 q- 08:20:45 s/Tpt/TallTed/ 08:20:45 ... Use-cases are important: describe what you need to do and can not do with what we have nowadays. 08:20:45 I agree with Arnaud 08:20:45 q? 08:21:17 ack fabien 08:21:17 fabien_gandon_, you wanted to ask the opinions about the set of syntaxes 08:22:22 gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star 08:22:22 fabien_gandon_: it would be great to have a vision of the syntaxes. We have Turtle/Turtle-star, JSON-LD, YAML-LD, RDFa... RDF/XML is stuck with RDF 1.0. 08:22:22 ... Do we want to keep multiplying the syntaxes? Can we afford it? 08:22:22 ktk: do you want to add that to the agenda? 08:22:22 fabien_gandon_: I'm happy to take it offline, but I would like other people's vision on that. 08:22:26 q? 08:22:31 q- 08:22:40 ack niklasl 08:22:40 niklasl, you wanted to mention the contrast between reification and named graphs (based on our use cases) 08:23:04 timbl has joined #rdf-star 08:23:57 For those unfamiliar, our list of repositories gives an idea of what we're already working on -- https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/rdf-star/tools/#GitHub_repositories 08:23:57 timbl: RDF/XML should be deprecated 08:23:57 fabien_gandon_: I would formally object to that, we have important use-cases for RDF/XML 08:24:29 gkellogg has joined #rdf-star 08:24:29 niklasl: I brought up some use-cases. 08:24:29 timbl: in that case RDF/XLM should have named graph support 08:25:05 s/nowadays/or have been working on here, thus far/ 08:25:06 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/issues/23#issuecomment-1712809669 08:25:13 ... Importance of differentiating the use-cases for quoted triples and the use-cases for named graphs. 08:25:39 ... We need use-cases and examples to see if that makes sense. 08:25:43 q? 08:25:57 present+ 08:26:00 ktk: I guess we will discuss this in the use-cases session. 08:26:04 (without opinion!) RDF/XML continues to be significantly used in certain domains. e.g. Bio/pharma, (Uniprot). Financial reporting. 08:26:22 Sure, Fabien, if you have use caes with loys of rdf/xml then let's not deprecate it But lets add literal subgraphs to it. We did that in the code. 08:26:49 ora: gkellogg has join, please introduce yourself 08:27:09 gkellogg: I have been working on most of the rdf-X documents 08:27:54 I remember the time when we were fighting the confusiong between RDF/XML and RDF, we went on and put on the REC track a bunch of the existing formats: Turtle RDFa etc and thought this should made it clear that RDF/XML was merely a serialization format and not RDF. It sounds like now the number of serialization formats is causing some confusion too... 08:27:55 I will go and make coffee... 08:29:19 better link to our repositories/documents -- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new#rdf-12-documents 08:30:13 pchampin: 4 slots : 9:30-11:00, 11:30-13:00, 14:30-16:30, 17:00-18:30 08:30:52 Arnaud -- At that past time, there was a perception that RDF/XML was the primary, if not the only, "native" serialization of RDF. I don't think the same confusion is happening now, though there is sometimes a question of which serialization is best for (or even capable of) a given task. 08:32:29 q+ 08:33:10 addison has joined #rdf-star 08:33:55 The "little things" list https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/7 has many things that will be covered by I18N. 08:33:56 Wiki page or spreadsheet or somesuch for the scheduling? 08:34:02 We had a proposal (W3C Member Submission) for the source/graph syntax extension https://www.w3.org/submissions/rdfsource/ 08:34:08 Break 11:00 - 11:30 08:34:09 * I14n 08:34:09 * Use Cases 11:30 - 12:00 08:34:09 * "Little things" 08:34:09 Lunch 13:00 - 14:30 08:34:10 q- 08:34:11 * SPARQL 14:30 - 16:00 08:34:14 Break 16:30 - 17:00 08:34:16 * Semantics 08:34:19 End: 18:30 08:34:36 q? 08:34:52 xfq has joined #rdf-star 08:34:54 sorry i14n would be now 08:34:57 Tim, I agree, that's why we had a proposal (W3C Member Submission) for the source/graph syntax extension https://www.w3.org/submissions/rdfsource/ 08:35:03 Topic: Joint session with i18n 08:35:06 s/I14n/I18N/ 08:35:10 RRSAgent, mae minutes 08:35:10 I'm logging. I don't understand 'mae minutes', pchampin. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:35:57 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:35:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html fabien_gandon_ 08:36:14 gkellogg: [presenting slides] we have 3 issues to discuss 08:36:36 ... 1) nomencrature for strings in RDF w3c/rdf-concepts#59 08:36:37 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/59 -> Pull Request 59 Improve Unicode terminology and term references. (by gkellogg) [i18n-tracker] [needs discussion] [spec:substantive] 08:36:50 ... It was unclear exactly what "unicode string" meant in the context of RDF specs 08:37:28 ... the PR is defining "RDF string" as a sequence of Unicode coide points restricted to be Unicode scalar values 08:37:40 ... (all code points except surrogate pairs) 08:38:05 q+ to mention that some RDF implemenations current permit surrogate code points in lexical values 08:38:19 q+ 08:38:21 addison: I made some comments, it is shaped up very nicely 08:39:11 ... you also took from old conversations. 08:39:11 q+ to mention that RDF String should not be confused with xsd:string 08:39:11 ... I think you are in the right place. 08:39:20 Bert has joined #rdf-star 08:39:38 ... We have guidelines for HTML, but less so for groups like yours. We need to improve this. 08:39:54 timbl has joined #rdf-star 08:39:58 q+ to ask about single unicode characters 08:40:43 gkellogg: there was a discussion about the use of code points or code units 08:41:16 addison: code units would mean that you have a specific encoding (e.g. UTF-8) 08:41:16 q? 08:41:16 ... but as you are dealing with strings as a seq of logical characters, which is the right thing to do. 08:42:19 "logical Unicode characters"? 08:42:26 ... "unicode scalar values" would be even more accurate than "unicode code point", but I would not go to "code unit" 08:42:26 ack pfps 08:42:26 pfps, you wanted to mention that some RDF implemenations current permit surrogate code points in lexical values 08:42:26 ack pfps 08:43:30 pfps: I would prefer to go for "unicode scalar value" 08:43:30 q+ 08:43:30 ... some RDF implementations deal with code points (e.g. RDFlib) 08:43:33 q+ to discuss code points vs scalar values 08:43:34 ack AndyS 08:43:34 AndyS, you wanted to mention that RDF String should not be confused with xsd:string 08:43:39 ... and consider any code point as a character 08:44:26 AndyS: we are making RDF strings different from xsd:strings, which have a particular definition 08:45:05 ack timbl 08:45:05 timbl, you wanted to ask about single unicode characters 08:45:05 ... we should make sure that we do not "inherit" the restrictions of xsd:string 08:45:05 ... the current definition of RDF string does that. 08:45:28 timbl: the C languages had a type for char (single quotes) and a type for strings (double quotes) 08:45:30 it would be useful to find out what other RDF implementations allow all Unicode code points (i.e., permit surrogate code points) 08:46:19 ... in Python or JS, there is no such distinction. When you deal with a character in those language, it is actually a string (of length 1). 08:46:23 q- 08:46:28 (audio is a bit choppy at this end) 08:46:47 pfps - Does Python surrogates in UTF-8 (I think it does not) 08:47:01 ack gkellogg 08:47:01 gkellogg, you wanted to discuss code points vs scalar values 08:47:20 s/Python surrogates/Python accepts surrogates/ 08:47:58 q+ 08:48:23 gkellogg: in my understanding, scalar values differ from code points in the fact that they do not include surrogate codes 08:48:38 I don't know - it is hard to create a UTF-8 document that includes surrogate code points 08:48:45 addison: surrogate values exist to allow UTF-16 to encode code points beyon 16 bits 08:49:22 ... they only occur as items in a string when you cut such a string in the middle of a surrogate pair 08:49:47 what I did was use the \u escape, as in "\uDEAD"^^ex:foo, which was accepted in rdflib 08:49:56 ... you don't need them, unless you want to preserve a single surrogate character that you would get from this kind of input. 08:49:58 pfps - "UnicodeEncodeError: XXX codec can't encode character '\ud83d' in position 8: surrogates no allowed." (from SO) 08:50:25 ack AndyS 08:50:28 what did not work in rdflib was "\U44444444"^^ex:foo, as rdflib uses Python chr to create the internal data structure 08:50:36 q+ 08:50:42 AndyS: they appear when you decode certain strings in Java 08:51:19 ack gkellogg 08:51:19 ack gkellogg 08:51:53 @AndyS: what input did you use? 08:51:53 https://github.com/AndyS -> @AndyS 08:52:01 gkellogg: could happen when you decode '`Uxxxx` is Turtle 08:52:18 AndyS: you probably don't want to allow this 08:52:57 gkellogg: [something about IRI equality] 08:53:15 addison: i18n has relaxed its position about normalization 08:53:51 gkellogg: any feeling about not merging this? do we need a resolution? 08:54:05 [crickets] 08:54:08 q? 08:54:17 gkellogg: next slide is on base direction 08:54:45 ... we took that up in the JSON-LD WG, but we needed to resort to datatypes or using additional blank nodes 08:55:08 Arnaud has joined #rdf-star 08:55:39 ... w3c/rdf-concepts#48 adds "directional language-tagged strings" that natively have a BCP 47 language tag and a base direction 08:55:40 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/48 -> Pull Request 48 Add base direction as a fourth element of literals. (by gkellogg) [discuss-f2f] [i18n-tracker] 08:55:48 ... PR has been opened for a while 08:55:54 q? 08:56:21 indeed, my concern is that will not be sufficient 08:56:32 q+ 08:56:40 ack niklasl 08:56:52 niklasl: has there been examples of this in the wild? 08:57:15 q? 08:57:15 q+ 08:57:32 ... today, anything from text editors to HTML display can deduce the direction. 08:57:53 ... Do we need to specify how that should work? 08:57:55 ack addison 08:58:16 https://www.w3.org/TR/string-meta/ 08:58:16 addison: we have an extensive set of documents, see for example https://www.w3.org/TR/string-meta/ 08:58:36 ... were we describe the problems if you don't have the base direction 08:59:16 q? 08:59:18 q+ 08:59:27 ... the guessing might get it wrong in some cases 08:59:48 ... another situation is when you insert a string in a bigger string 09:00:14 ... we did work to include base direction in a lot of different formats 09:00:17 q+ to say I don't think we're expecting to reach perfection, more to improve on what exists without blocking future improvements. Some corner cases will remain. Anyone working with odd scripts is used to hitting such now. Fewer will be better.... 09:01:38 jerven has joined #rdf-star 09:01:38 ... the key thing is: we are looking for most part of the web platform to be handle to deal with bidirection text consistently 09:02:07 ack pfps 09:02:11 timbl has joined #rdf-star 09:02:46 pfps: addison, are you saying that base direction is all you need to correctly display a string? 09:02:56 addison: no, we need also language meta-data 09:03:42 pfps: language tag + base direction do not seem enough to me to get it right in all cases 09:03:58 addison: the base direction is used to provide isolation 09:04:19 ... that does deal with whatever happens inside the string 09:05:22 ... but assuming that you have a consistent string inside, the base direction ensures that you can embed it properly 09:06:19 [discussion about comma-separated list of opposite-direction text, and what the "right" direction is] 09:06:26 ack TallTed 09:06:26 TallTed, you wanted to say I don't think we're expecting to reach perfection, more to improve on what exists without blocking future improvements. Some corner cases will remain. 09:06:29 ... Anyone working with odd scripts is used to hitting such now. Fewer will be better.... 09:06:55 TallTed: let's do not keep discussing corner cases 09:07:47 ... we are trying to improve the existing solution, and not block future improvement 09:08:13 q? 09:09:03 r12a: can we take this offline, I'd like to see the precise example to discuss this further 09:09:10 Arnaud_ has joined #rdf-star 09:09:14 Issue where 09:09:25 This should be a use case, which we need to prove whether base direction string metadata solves or not? 09:09:26 timbl has joined #rdf-star 09:09:59 gkellogg: last issue is about BCP47 issue; do we want to take this after the break? 09:10:14 s/BCP47/BCP47 case/ 09:10:20 addison: this one seems easy 09:10:46 gkellogg: the problem is: are two triples differing only by the language tag case two separate triples or a single triple? 09:10:54 ... this raises issues for RDF C14N. 09:11:11 q? 09:11:16 pfps - Issue: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/9 // PR https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/48 09:11:27 ... no PR on this, only an issue. 09:11:44 addison: BCP47 is clearly made to be case insensitive 09:12:19 ... it is perfectly valid to normalize things or to XXX 09:12:46 ... I would not recommend people to only use the lowercase form -- many people want to make the tags pretty. 09:13:10 gkellogg: currently, literal term equality is term sensitive 09:13:30 ... we could change that to make the comparison of the language tag case-insensitive 09:13:36 q+ 09:13:54 draggett has joined #rdf-star 09:14:03 ack AndyS 09:14:16 ... this has consequences when you insert triples in a store 09:14:26 AndyS: what is the approach in XML? 09:14:45 ... I believe there is a SPARQL test related to case-sensitivity with language tags. 09:15:24 ... Should we push this to the meaning domain or the value domain? 09:15:37 addison: from one you described earlier, this is probably one triple 09:15:46 q+ 09:15:59 AndyS: then we need to decide which noramlization to use 09:16:28 The fact that the lower case and upper case mean the same does not imply that they are the same tag in the syntax 09:16:45 s/from one/from what/ 09:17:33 q- 09:17:33 ack pchampin 09:17:48 Thanks Addison! 09:17:56 ktl: I think we have what we need from i18n, thank you very much. 09:18:02 ... we'll continue the discussion between us. 09:18:12 addison: I will share some reference material 09:18:16 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:18:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin 09:19:36 AndyS: last question about canonicalization, doesn't it change the characters in the strings? Is there a formal name for the thing that XXX? 09:19:42 addison: I have to look it up. 09:20:22 AndyS: found it, it is called "formatting" 09:20:26 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:20:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin 09:21:36 i/sorry i14n would be now/present+ addison 09:25:51 See https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/61 for more on adequacy of initial base direction and initial language 09:37:18 timbl has joined #rdf-star 09:44:59 xfq has joined #rdf-star 09:45:14 xfq has left #rdf-star 09:48:57 fabien_gandon has joined #rdf-star 09:49:03 present+ 09:52:07 scribe+ 09:52:29 pfps: I will be presenting usecases. It is much better if you have a look at them yourself 09:53:39 ... I sent out the links on the list 09:53:47 I know there's a link to the slides... could it be shared here? 09:54:21 ... 7 of them are "normal" use-cases 09:54:21 Peter's slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Sep/att-0016/Use_Cases.html 09:54:26 ... we have a couple from the people that use CIDOC-CRM, we have one that I constructed from PGs, there is a prov use case 09:55:17 ... and we have 3 "unusual" ones. 09:55:17 ... One for commiting deltas to RDF 09:55:17 ... canonicalisation of language tags 09:55:46 ... the first 5 and the 2 on the second slide have an impact on transparency 09:56:10 q+ to ask what "literal transparency" means in this context 09:56:49