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13:12:50 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
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13:14:49 <Lauriat> Present+
13:17:24 <kirkwood> present+
13:18:04 <Chuck> present+
13:19:50 <ShawnT> present+
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13:29:34 <ShawnT> Today's meeting: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a73cf622-61ac-4b34-9681-ea1a21aaf6dc/
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13:31:45 <Jennie> present+
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13:32:28 <kirkwood> present+
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13:32:40 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
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13:32:47 <ben_tillyer> present+
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13:33:02 <Jennie> Chuck: Yesterday we had some issues managing breakout rooms
13:33:07 <Jennie> ...I think we have worked those out
13:33:19 <Jennie> ...If you leave a meeting and come back you need to be re-assigned
13:33:37 <Jennie> ...I will share my screen
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13:33:57 <Jennie> ...I would like to do a review of what our subgroup did, then will ask for reviews from the other groups
13:34:10 <Jennie> ...The subgroup for accessible views met yesterday
13:34:20 <Jennie> ...Thank you for those that participated
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13:34:44 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+
13:34:45 <Jennie> ...We expanded the scope and added those to user needs
13:35:24 <Jennie> ...Focus, and some other areas including overlap with timing and interruptions
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13:35:24 <Jennie> ...We noted when we thought they may be out of scope
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13:35:24 <JohnRochford> present+
13:35:24 <Jennie> ...When we went into the tests and the outcomes we put priority on the textual based user needs
13:35:44 <Jennie> ...If there are comments from peers, please feel free to chime in
13:35:49 <Jennie> ...We came up with lots of user needs
13:36:02 <Jennie> ...Any questions, please q in
13:36:10 <Jennie> JK: Is there a link for this?
13:36:12 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0RpZh4dqcSWOGsbxQ6Xdo_Lp6OMh3_8J-Z9Ttbm1Co/edit
13:36:13 <Jennie> Chuck: yes
13:36:54 <alastairc> Today's meeting: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a73cf622-61ac-4b34-9681-ea1a21aaf6dc/
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13:36:55 <Jennie> Chuck: the first user need started as a group of different user needs
13:37:03 <Jennie> ...After reviewing, we combined them into a single concept
13:37:16 <Jennie> ...(reads from the document regarding color contrast)
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13:37:26 <Jennie> ...There were lots of user needs related to this
13:37:36 <Jennie> ...We still have them captured in here, regarding testing
13:38:14 <Jennie> ...Our outcome (reads from the document)
13:38:14 <Jennie> ...The other thing we found interesting: we started a conversation about if current technology supported meeting some of the user needs
13:38:17 <Jennie> ...We decided this is not the stage for this
13:38:34 <Jennie> ...We felt we could explore this later as this evolves
13:38:40 <Jennie> ...Thanks to the work on the maturity levels!
13:38:43 <Patrick_H_Lauke> q+ "personalisation vs default"
13:38:53 <Jennie> ...Next user need: regarding enlarging text
13:38:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> q+
13:39:07 <Jennie> ...Another one: we discussed that enlarging text was the focus
13:39:17 <Jennie> Patrick: Regarding personalization
13:39:29 <Jennie> ...We had a conundrum in our meeting as well
13:39:44 <Jennie> ...Is there some type of idea about what the default should be? Should there be a definition of the baseline?
13:39:48 <Jennie> ...A minimum standard?
13:40:03 <Jennie> Chuck: One of the user needs we came up with down below was about a minimum font size
13:40:27 <Jennie> ...Much as current WCAG has a contrast ratio, we thought that a minimum font size (not already mentioned) should be the baseline
13:40:33 <Jennie> ...We did not discuss other defaults
13:40:44 <jon_avila> We did have a user story on font weight minimum
13:40:45 <Patrick_H_Lauke> minimum font size won't be absolute though - depends on font/typeface itself, size (in CSS pixels) of the screen, etc
13:40:50 <Jennie> ...But we came across the same questions as you did
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13:41:08 <Jennie> Chuck: our outcome for the small text one (reads from the document)
13:41:32 <Jennie> ...We were thinking in terms of enlarging text, but then it came up - but what if you want to make it smaller?
13:41:39 <Jennie> ...We made a note that it can be explored later
13:41:52 <Jennie> ...Another user need regarding use of a magnifier (reads from document)
13:42:03 <Jennie> ...We had discussed using viewport, but we wanted to be tech agnostic
13:42:12 <Jennie> ...Our outcome (read from document)
13:42:23 <Jennie> ...Next user need: large text (reads from document)
13:42:30 <Jennie> ...This was one of the more complicated ones
13:42:48 <Jennie> ...If you are enlarging text it is possible that text onscreen already large by default may become difficult to read
13:43:00 <Jennie> ...We discussed ways to mitigate this so it doesn't become overly large
13:43:04 <Jennie> ...This one is challenging
13:43:09 <Jennie> ...(reads from document)
13:43:37 <Jennie> ...Very wordy, might need to revisit. Theory: you can have different size headings
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13:43:56 <Jennie> ...Both should enlarge, but they shouldn't get to the point that they get to the exact size, or can no longer be viewed on a screen
13:44:13 <Jennie> JK: you said a key word that is not there - proportion
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13:44:24 <Jennie> Chuck: Yes.
13:44:33 <Jennie> ...I will do 1 more
13:44:39 <mitch11___> q+
13:44:43 <Patrick_H_Lauke> (i.e. if there is a visual hierarchy/relationship - indicated by size? - there is still some form of visual hierarchy/relationship after text/content resizing - might be proportional size difference retained, or SOME OTHER visual indication)
13:44:45 <Jennie> ...As a person with age related vision loss (reads from document)
13:44:56 <Jennie> ...There  might be default minimums, maximums - what it should be out of the box
13:45:04 <jon_avila> We were thinking that other means that were not proportional could be used as long as it was x% of the default
13:45:08 <Jennie> ...It can be customized, but we encountered the issues the other group mentioned
13:45:15 <Jennie> ...We did not get through all of our user needs
13:45:25 <Jennie> ...We have more work to do
13:45:40 <Jennie> ...I will also note we took cues from the subgroups of yesterday that wrote the outcomes inline with the tests
13:45:43 <Jennie> ...That really helped
13:45:51 <Jennie> ...Then you don't have to jump all over the page
13:46:03 <Jennie> ...Jeanne led another group yesterday
13:46:10 <mbgower> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lQcEsBTyEskhCVergFDHDHLdhSGeMrzpp1W8PErFOjA/edit?usp=sharing
13:46:13 <Jennie> MG: I will walk us through that one
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13:46:31 <SSchnabe> present+
13:46:37 <Jennie> MG: I will share my screen
13:46:46 <Jennie> ...I am sure this is by design - lots of overlap
13:46:54 <Jennie> ...Our group was text appearance and semantics
13:46:56 <SSchnabe> q?
13:47:03 <Jennie> ...Research: we began with this
13:47:15 <Jennie> ...We divided the research - the low vision task force
13:47:28 <Jennie> ...We divided them by year
13:47:30 <Jennie> ...We looked at all of the information related to the topic
13:47:44 <Jennie> ...User needs: we defined them against the user needs
13:47:48 <ShawnT> Research - Low Vision Accessibility Task Force: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Research
13:47:55 <Jennie> ...Resizing the entire content - we didn't find specific research but feel it is a user need
13:48:09 <Jennie> ...There is still work to be reviewed here
13:48:19 <Jennie> ...There are lots of user needs identified
13:48:30 <Jennie> ...We then mapped them against barriers, and identified tests that can be done
13:48:50 <Jennie> ...We listed the barriers in the table
13:49:00 <Jennie> ...I am on page 12 at the moment
13:49:11 <Jennie> ...Once we did that, we came up with outcomes
13:49:26 <Jennie> ...Some are relatively similar to those from the previous group, but with slightly different wording
13:49:34 <Jennie> ...The 1st outcome (out of 8)
13:49:49 <Jennie> ...Provides ability to customize appearance of text (reads from the document)
13:50:01 <Jennie> ...Captures several user needs
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13:50:09 <Jennie> ...(reads from document)
13:50:30 <Jennie> ...We identified an intersectional one: maximizing text and minimizing scrolling
13:50:39 <Jennie> ...turning off hyphenation
13:50:45 <Jennie> ...This can oppose other user needs
13:50:54 <Jennie> ...We didn't have a great way to capture the contradictory ones
13:51:12 <Jennie> ...Outcome 2
13:51:21 <Jennie> ...Reflow - we have a number that are not captured here
13:51:27 <Jennie> ...(reads from the document)
13:51:39 <Jennie> ...We have some aspects we missed, and I captured those with a note
13:51:48 <Jennie> ...Outcome 3
13:51:59 <Jennie> ...User preferences for text appearance
13:52:05 <Jennie> ...(reads from document)
13:52:11 <Jennie> ...The 4th outcome
13:52:20 <Jennie> ...(reads from document)
13:52:28 <Jennie> ...Supports the playboack of text in a reading mode
13:52:46 <Jennie> ...Highlighting of the text to support tracking, other needs
13:52:56 <Jennie> ...Can be like a ticker tape at the top of the screen
13:53:07 <Chuck> q+
13:53:09 <Jennie> ...Outcome 5: uses semantics properly
13:53:23 <Patrick_H_Lauke> q-
13:53:42 <Jennie> MG: (reads from document)
13:53:58 <Jennie> ...Outcome 6: displays all text in the same orientation
13:54:04 <Jennie> ...(reads from document)
13:54:20 <Jennie> ...Outcome 7: these didn't quite fit into the outcomes we were making
13:54:31 <Jennie> ...Some people get information on the page then print it out
13:54:41 <Jennie> ...Outcome 8: we didn't quite finish this one
13:54:48 <Chuck> q+ to say that there are a lot of similarities, and we touched upon captioning
13:54:52 <Chuck> ack mitch
13:55:07 <Jennie> Mitch: I want to acknowledge the great research from the low vision task force
13:55:16 <Jennie> ...It leads in consistent places
13:55:30 <Jennie> ...When we said "out of scope" we meant for this scratch pad, and the time allowed
13:55:33 <Jennie> MG: Thanks for that
13:55:42 <Chuck> ack Ch
13:55:42 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say that there are a lot of similarities, and we touched upon captioning
13:55:44 <Jennie> ...We treated all color and contrast as out of scope for this group
13:56:09 <Jennie> Chuck: There are lots of similarity. We had thoughts about how captioning was presented
13:56:15 <Jennie> ...and how that might be configurable
13:56:30 <Jennie> ...If we thought something was out of scope, we just wrote that in the notes, then deprioritized them
13:56:36 <Jennie> ...That is just the approach we took
13:56:48 <Jennie> ...Other subgroups may be able to clearly define the boundaries, great
13:56:58 <Jennie> ...But if they do have questions, note them
13:57:07 <Jennie> ...If you don't want to lose the thought, don't
13:57:12 <Jennie> ...We can review them later on
13:57:18 <Jennie> ...Any other questions?
13:57:37 <Jennie> ...2 groups from earlier today
13:57:55 <Jennie> Wilco: We started off going over the testing research
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13:58:04 <maryjom> present+
13:58:10 <Jennie> ...from there we realized that the support seemed to broad
13:58:30 <Jennie> ...We decided to focus more specifically on pointer support and the challenges from that
13:58:40 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y9ihiYAgLfR83Cu6phRuPTcBr3N9Kr_uFD9cGuxpsgc/edit#heading=h.txiccm4cn4nl
13:58:43 <Jennie> ...From there we ended up in a multi hour conversation around what is a pointer, what can result?
13:58:49 <Jennie> ...What about voice control?
13:59:01 <Jennie> ...Is that a pointer effect? Or how can it be a pointer effect?
13:59:08 <Jennie> ...What if a camera is detecting you?
13:59:18 <Jennie> ...We looked at what can be done with a stylus and pointer events.
13:59:23 <Jennie> ...We then moved to different tests
13:59:35 <Jennie> ...We ended up going through the user needs
13:59:46 <Jennie> ...We used the FAST framework - a number of categories
13:59:58 <Jennie> ...Some were more self-evident than others
14:00:09 <Jennie> ...So we wrote some additional user needs
14:00:20 <Jennie> ...Example: user may not need to do the same action many times
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14:00:33 <Jennie> ...We started looking at writing up a number of tests
14:00:38 <Jennie> ...The first couple were very long
14:00:56 <Jennie> ...In writing the tests we started seeing patterns
14:00:57 <JohnRochford> Jennie, would you please post again the link to the doc Wilco is referring to?
14:01:09 <Jennie> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y9ihiYAgLfR83Cu6phRuPTcBr3N9Kr_uFD9cGuxpsgc/edit#heading=h.txiccm4cn4nl
14:01:19 <Chuck> q?
14:01:24 <Jennie> Wilco: We started looking at things like pressing and holding a control
14:01:36 <Jennie> ...but also orientation of a stylus
14:01:49 <Jennie> ...How strong is the press onto the touch screen or tablet
14:02:00 <Jennie> ...You cannot rely on these things
14:02:01 <Jennie> ...Next we ended up with basically 2 outcomes
14:02:05 <Jennie> ...3 outcomes
14:02:17 <Jennie> ...It is in the outcomes section in the document
14:02:21 <Jennie> ...There is a higher level
14:02:36 <Jennie> ...Sites need to support whatever modalities are available
14:02:44 <Patrick_H_Lauke> q+
14:02:44 <Jennie> ...(reads from the 1st one)
14:02:55 <Patrick_H_Lauke> (once wilco is finished, probably add a few more words)
14:02:59 <Jennie> ...2D, 3D, whatever environment, activating a single interaction
14:03:11 <Jennie> ...A single pointer position in space
14:03:18 <Jennie> ...That is the minimum necessary
14:03:27 <Jennie> ...Other things you will have to provide an alternative for
14:03:43 <Jennie> ...The 2nd outcome
14:03:56 <Jennie> ...Users should not be required to perform repetitive things like fast presses
14:04:10 <Jennie> ...The last outcome
14:04:23 <Jennie> ...Users should be able to choose and operate controls
14:04:29 <Jennie> ...Targets are of sufficient size
14:04:35 <Jennie> ...(reads from the document)
14:04:45 <Jennie> ...Something like for eye tracking software
14:05:25 <Chuck> q+ to say we found "patterns" as well during "tests"
14:05:25 <Jennie> ...High level point and click is a way to control things at a minimum
14:05:25 <Chuck> ack Pat
14:05:25 <Jennie> PL: I want to compliment what Wilco shared
14:05:26 <Jennie> ...We had lengthy conversations about what is input, what is a pointer
14:05:34 <Jennie> ...We ended up in a better place for it at the end
14:05:48 <Jennie> ...We decided we were slightly skeptical of the term "mobile"
14:06:02 <Jennie> ...This can mean small screen, but we decided it is too vague
14:06:11 <Jennie> ...This is why we talked about pointer
14:06:35 <Jennie> ...It would be beneficial to have a similar exercise for keyboard and keyboard like navigation
14:06:40 <Jennie> ...spatial interfaces
14:06:49 <Jennie> ...The high level need is most likely the same
14:06:58 <Jennie> ...As a user I want to be able to select something, activate something
14:07:08 <Jennie> ...These have different concepts, and there could be overlaps
14:07:25 <kirkwood> +1 to point of being skeptical about the term mobile’
14:07:27 <Jennie> ...One of the aspects of WCAG 2 is the assumption: something is with a mouse, and a keyboard
14:07:41 <Jennie> ...It would be good to start one step before that - look at all input modalities
14:07:51 <Jennie> ...And provide SCs that take these into consideration
14:07:59 <alastairc> s/something is with a mouse, and a keyboard/something is designed to use with a mouse, and WCAG patched it to also work with a keyboard
14:08:10 <Jennie> ...There is the idea that content will be operable by whatever the user has available and can use
14:08:21 <Jennie> ...Example: a kiosk or an ATM - a closed environment
14:08:35 <Jennie> ...It may be an exception that the author is not required to make it keyboard accessible
14:08:54 <Jennie> ...But for content on the web, you can't make an assumption about the input method the user will use
14:08:57 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:08:57 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say we found "patterns" as well during "tests"
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14:09:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> q-
14:09:13 <Jennie> Chuck: I think patterns is a good way to describe what we found as well
14:09:24 <Jennie> ...This might be a common area used by other groups
14:09:29 <mbgower> I'd argue you can make assumptions for input modalities, based on the APIs available
14:09:47 <Jennie> AC: This is consistent design
14:09:58 <Jennie> ...We started off with research
14:10:01 <Jennie> ...There is quite a bit we can reference
14:10:12 <Jennie> ...Why is consistent design good in general
14:10:22 <Jennie> ...It is more difficult to find some research
14:10:29 <Lauriat> Possible to get a link to the Consistent Design Guideline Scratchpad doc?
14:10:36 <Jennie> ...We were operating under the concept of reducing cognitive load for everyone
14:10:49 <Jennie> ...There are quite a few on consistent interfaces improving performance
14:10:54 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kwv_nyiYfeYIhsFeyd3GblhYbquQktFzBsI0rxBD1OQ/
14:10:59 <Jennie> ...Or inconsistent ones causing people to not perform as well
14:11:01 <Patrick_H_Lauke> "content should be operable by a user with whichever input modality they have available/are using right now". there will be exceptions (e.g. kiosk content should not be required to be keyboard-operable if the kiosk itself, a closed environment, will only ever provide a touchscreen interface)
14:11:08 <kirkwood> for a minute perspective could put link of consistent design scrathpad in here:
14:11:09 <Jennie> ...We had things like (reads from the document)
14:11:21 <Lauriat> Much appreciated!
14:11:24 <kirkwood> oops done sorry
14:11:25 <Jennie> ...(reads user need about effort to learn)
14:11:59 <Jennie> ...(reads user need about preferred icons) this is perhaps a future one
14:12:06 <Jennie> ...some research is needed on others
14:12:21 <Jennie> ...(continues reading other user needs)
14:12:49 <Jennie> ...conversation about programmatic and visual
14:12:57 <Jennie> ...For example, if you have links and buttons
14:13:14 <Jennie> *speaker name please?
14:13:23 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Ben Tillyer
14:13:30 <Jennie> BT: If you are a JAWS user
14:13:36 <Jennie> * thank you Patrick
14:13:38 <mbgower> q+ to say we also identifed the need of "consistent between programmatic and visual" in our Text Appearance and Semantics group
14:13:48 <Jennie> BT: needs consistency
14:14:07 <Jennie> Another speaker: whatever your interaction mode, it needs to be consistent across
14:14:22 <Chuck> ack mb
14:14:22 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say we also identifed the need of "consistent between programmatic and visual" in our Text Appearance and Semantics group
14:14:40 <Jennie> MG: We identified the same basic need: some kind of consistency between the visual and programmatic
14:15:01 <Jennie> ...What happens if a certain text color means something
14:15:05 <ben_tillyer> s/Another speaker/mitch11___
14:15:12 <Jennie> AC: You will see some overlap
14:15:19 <Jennie> ...(reads from Outcome 1)
14:15:37 <Jennie> ...(this user need: navigation mechanisms are consistent)
14:15:52 <Jennie> ...(reads from Outcome 2: interactive controls have similar function and design)
14:16:05 <Jennie> ...another angle on it: consistent controls
14:16:12 <Jennie> ...distinguishable from non-controls
14:16:20 <Jennie> ...There is an "or" pattern here
14:16:40 <Jennie> ...(reads from the document)
14:16:52 <Jennie> ...lots of things need to be defined in here
14:17:05 <Jennie> ...If there is an essential exception, there may need to be information
14:17:21 <Jennie> ...We could refine the guidance to be part of an assertion
14:17:28 <Jennie> ...We didn't get onto the 2nd part: needing to identify tasks and options on the page
14:17:47 <Jennie> ...We also had (reads from document)
14:17:57 <Jennie> ...(regards orienting the user)
14:18:03 <Jennie> ...this could be step indicators
14:18:16 <Jennie> ...On the icon one, users are able to replace control labels
14:18:22 <Jennie> ...This might be a user-agent side thing
14:18:28 <Jennie> ...But could be an author requirement
14:18:42 <Jennie> ...We need some expertise to continue with that one
14:18:50 <Chuck> q?
14:18:57 <Jennie> ...For someone who becomes anxious from change (reads from document)
14:19:02 <Jennie> ...Allowing things to be reversed
14:19:16 <Jennie> ...depending on what the change of context was
14:19:37 <Jennie> ...(moves to consistent operations outcomes section of document)
14:19:54 <Jennie> ...You can variations of each input, or we could have a way to make it generic
14:20:03 <Jennie> ...Someone has been adding a lot to this!
14:20:20 <Jennie> BT: I ended up expanding on one of them
14:20:26 <Jennie> ...Previously, one of the other outcomes
14:20:35 <Jennie> ...was about helping a user understand how to use it
14:20:47 <Jennie> ...I expanded this: it could be partially communicated to assistive technology
14:20:57 <Jennie> ...But also this could have design patterns or instructions
14:21:07 <mbgower> q+ to say assessments for consistency should apply not just across a set of pages, but across a page, something we don't capture in 2.x
14:21:18 <Chuck> ack mb
14:21:18 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say assessments for consistency should apply not just across a set of pages, but across a page, something we don't capture in 2.x
14:21:19 <Jennie> MG: Thanks a lot for this work
14:21:24 <Jennie> ...We have a bit of a whole in WCAG
14:21:31 <Patrick__> Patrick__ has joined #ag
14:21:32 <Jennie> ...I frequently see failures within a single page
14:21:42 <Chuck> q?
14:21:43 <Jennie> ...I think this has to apply both across a set of pages, and within a single page
14:21:57 <Patrick__> what if inconsistency is used to convey meaning?
14:22:02 <mbgower> s/bit of a whole/bit of a hole
14:22:07 <SSchnabe> q+
14:22:50 <Chuck> ack SS
14:23:48 <SSchnabe> q-
14:25:26 <Patrick__> AC: [reads over breakout sessions about accessibility tomorrow]
14:26:22 <Patrick__> James Craig (JC) gives brief sneak-peek at cross-browser automated accessibility testing in WPT Introp 2023 and Beyond session content
14:26:46 <ben_tillyer> https://www.w3.org/calendar/tpac2023/breakout-sessions/
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14:27:22 <kevin> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/breakouts.html#grid
14:28:03 <Chuck> zakim, make minutes
14:28:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', Chuck
14:28:10 <Chuck> rrsagent, make minutes
14:28:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-ag-minutes.html Chuck
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17:51:13 <JenStrickland> present+
18:01:10 <jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag3/text-appearance-and-semantics/guidelines/index.html#text-appearance-and-semantics
18:09:00 <jeanne> sorry, wrong channel
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20:35:02 <ljoakley1> how do I get back into my Breakout room?
21:57:16 <ljoakley1> quit
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