IRC log of wot on 2023-09-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:37:35 [RRSAgent]
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12:37:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-irc
12:39:15 [cris_]
topic: introduction to WoT
12:39:15 [pchampin]
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12:39:15 [sebastian]
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12:39:15 [cris_]
<ege showing slides>
12:39:57 [kaz]
meeting: JSON-LD WG, WoT WG, RCH WG Joint Meeting
12:40:10 [kaz]
i/ege show/scribenick: cris_/
12:40:52 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura
12:40:52 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
12:40:53 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:40:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:41:01 [Mizushima]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:41:42 [yamdan]
present+
12:41:44 [cris_]
ege: I want to introduce the discovery specificiation because is in the interest of JSON-LD group
12:41:44 [kaz]
i/ege show/Slides: @@@/
12:41:44 [niklasl]
present+
12:41:44 [cris_]
present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
12:42:03 [cris_]
... you can discover Thing Description using DID
12:42:37 [kaz]
q+
12:42:37 [cris_]
topic: Discussions
12:42:41 [manu]
present+
12:42:47 [hyojin]
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12:42:47 [gkellogg]
present+
12:42:48 [pchampin]
present+
12:42:58 [sebastian]
present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
12:42:59 [Gregory]
present+
12:43:04 [TallTed]
present+
12:43:07 [luca_barbato]
present+
12:43:13 [bigbluehat]
present+ Benjamin_Young
12:43:14 [Gregory]
present+ Gregory Saumier-Finch
12:43:22 [dezell]
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12:43:22 [hyojin]
present+
12:43:23 [dlongley]
present+
12:43:28 [wonsuk]
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12:43:33 [dezell]
present+ David_Ezell
12:44:11 [mahda]
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12:44:11 [cris_]
topic: Signing ad Canonicalization
12:44:11 [ethieblin]
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12:44:11 [jyrossi]
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12:44:12 [minyongli]
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12:44:13 [mahda]
present+ mahda_noura
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12:44:23 [ethieblin]
present+
12:44:24 [wonsuk]
present+ Wonsuk_Lee
12:45:01 [jyrossi]
present+
12:45:01 [cris_]
ege: we worked on Canonicalization ans Signing but it didn't make to the final spec
12:45:01 [ethieblin]
present+ Elodie_Thieblin
12:45:02 [cris_]
<Ege shows an example of the previous work>
12:45:07 [Ege]
q?
12:45:11 [kaz]
ack k
12:45:47 [markus_sabadello]
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12:45:53 [cris_]
mahda: with signing we can prove that a TD has not been changed
12:45:58 [markus_sabadello]
present+
12:45:58 [Geun-Hyung]
present+ GeunHyung_Kim
12:46:05 [dape]
dape has joined #wot
12:46:10 [cris_]
... plus we can share a part of a TD instead of the whole file
12:46:17 [kaz]
i/with/topic: Signing and Canonicalization/
12:46:28 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:46:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:46:35 [manu]
q+ to speak to some of these questions
12:46:36 [dape]
present+ Daniel_Peintner
12:46:42 [minyongli]
present+ Minyong_Li
12:47:24 [cris_]
mahda: if we can sign a TD what about linked resources?
12:47:24 [cris_]
... we identified a couple of mechanisms
12:47:24 [cris_]
... hash link
12:47:24 [cris_]
... ipfs
12:47:40 [Ege]
q?
12:47:46 [cris_]
... also which signature scheme is appropriate for TDs?
12:47:54 [cris_]
manu: thank you for having us here
12:47:59 [phila]
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12:48:04 [cris_]
... we have good answers
12:48:12 [phila]
present+
12:48:42 [cris_]
... is there a selective Disclosure in JSON-LD ? yes, we have but it is fairly new.
12:48:52 [manu]
https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-di-ecdsa/#ecdsa-sd-2023
12:49:03 [nhk-ryo]
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12:49:13 [kaz]
i/is there/subtopic: Selective Disclosure/
12:49:19 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:49:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:49:41 [cris_]
manu: check the link above
12:50:08 [Ege]
q+
12:50:18 [cris_]
... another mechanism is to issue multiple versions
12:50:23 [sebastian]
ack m
12:50:23 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to speak to some of these questions
12:50:33 [sebastian]
ack e
12:50:38 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:50:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:50:45 [cris_]
ege: with TD we always said that there is one version live, multiple versions is complex
12:50:50 [kaz]
chair: Ege
12:50:53 [cris_]
... what is the right approach?
12:51:16 [cris_]
manu: selective disclosure is inherently more complex.
12:51:18 [luca_barbato]
q+
12:51:37 [cris_]
... if you are dealing with regular size computing machines is not an issue
12:51:45 [cris_]
... but of course with IoT devices is different
12:51:46 [manu]
Selective Disclosure for Data Integrity: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1d-04kIWhPuNscsAyUuRH3pduqrNerhigCWahKe6SNos/edit#
12:51:56 [kaz]
present+ Ryo_Yasuoka
12:52:04 [cris_]
... the is a slide deck (linked above)
12:52:08 [Ege]
q+
12:52:31 [cris_]
ege: in the TDD you can answer with part of the TD
12:52:39 [cris_]
... it is relevant in this use case too
12:52:49 [Ege]
ack e
12:52:51 [cris_]
manu: yeah
12:53:30 [cris_]
... there is some work in IETF, SDJWT
12:54:18 [cris_]
luca: the part there is interesting is the trust model
12:54:46 [cris_]
... also another part is what parts of a TD you can share (confidentiality)
12:55:10 [cris_]
... on way to handle this is to present the TD in different ways depending who is accessing it
12:55:29 [cris_]
... everything dynamic should be a property
12:55:43 [Ege]
q?
12:55:45 [Ege]
ack l
12:56:04 [cris_]
... and there you can have once again different auth technologies
12:56:21 [luca_barbato]
q-
12:56:25 [cris_]
... for greenfield we can choose state of the art techs
12:56:38 [kaz]
q?
12:57:01 [cris_]
subtopic: Integrity of Linked Data
12:57:20 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:57:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:57:29 [cris_]
manu: we dealt with this in the Verifiable Credentials WG
12:57:38 [cris_]
... two approaches:
12:57:49 [cris_]
... digest
12:58:52 [dape]
q+ default TD values: present vs not present, e.g., contentType
12:59:00 [dape]
q+ to default TD values: present vs not present, e.g., contentType
12:59:01 [cris_]
... the downside is that if the remote resource allows different mediatypes you need a way to discrbie digest for multiple content-type
12:59:02 [Ege]
q?
12:59:06 [cris_]
... all of this fairly new
12:59:26 [cris_]
... second approach is related resources
12:59:58 [cris_]
... in property related resources you add that link information and the digest
13:00:17 [cris_]
... are you interesting in something that it is in the TD and links to something external right?
13:00:31 [cris_]
<ege shows an example>
13:01:29 [sebastian]
q+
13:01:35 [cris_]
manu: with something like TD links you would probably add the digest property
13:01:59 [cris_]
q?
13:02:10 [sebastian]
ack d
13:02:10 [Zakim]
dape, you wanted to default TD values: present vs not present, e.g., contentType
13:02:30 [kaz]
i|ege shows|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-link-to-developer-documentation Example 28: Link to developer documentation from WoT Thing Description 1.1
13:02:36 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minute
13:02:36 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', kaz. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:02:52 [cris_]
dape: About canonicalization process, in the TD we have the default values. How to deal with this mechanism for signing?
13:03:17 [cris_]
q?
13:03:21 [manu]
q+
13:03:27 [kaz]
s/rrsagent, draft minute//
13:03:30 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:03:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:04:11 [cris_]
manu: there are two ways: it depends on **when** you apply the default values
13:04:11 [cris_]
... if you do it before signing
13:04:11 [cris_]
... it requires a pre-processing
13:04:27 [cris_]
... the other approach is just not signing them at all
13:05:49 [pchampin]
q+
13:06:21 [cris_]
dape: what is the best way then?
13:06:55 [cris_]
manu: you have to think the about the attack model to understand which one is the best
13:06:57 [manu]
q-
13:06:58 [dape]
ack dape
13:06:59 [cris_]
q?
13:07:05 [Ege]
q?
13:07:42 [cris_]
seb: we also the security requirements that applies to affordances, we can also apply it to links
13:07:51 [Ege]
ack s
13:07:52 [sebastian]
ack s
13:08:47 [cris_]
phchampin: on signing there are three levels in RDF. Concret syntaxes, the graph model, and the semantics.
13:09:16 [cris_]
... it seems that what we are looking for is a semantic signing, which is challenging
13:09:53 [cris_]
... gut feeling is to go with option 2
13:10:06 [cris_]
... and +1 for analyzing the threat model.
13:10:17 [cris_]
subtopic: signature schemes
13:10:41 [cris_]
manu: sharing links:
13:10:44 [manu]
https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-integrity/
13:11:32 [cris_]
manu: vc data integrity, support multiple caninocalization schemes
13:11:41 [manu]
https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-di-eddsa/
13:11:45 [manu]
https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-di-ecdsa/
13:12:00 [cris_]
manu: there are two cryptographic schemes
13:12:06 [cris_]
... linked above
13:12:13 [cris_]
... both would work
13:12:34 [cris_]
... if you are interesting for signature working in YAML too
13:12:47 [cris_]
s/intersting/interested/
13:13:06 [cris_]
... we can go with eddsa
13:13:09 [sebastian]
q+
13:13:22 [pchampin]
ack pchampin
13:14:22 [Ege]
q?
13:14:27 [cris_]
manu: ddsa is good, but experimental
13:14:46 [cris_]
q?
13:15:28 [cris_]
seb: do you have a feeling on when are going to go public?
13:15:36 [cris_]
manu: in two days
13:15:43 [ethieblin]
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13:16:03 [sebastian]
ack s
13:16:07 [cris_]
subtopic: Actors in VC
13:17:07 [cris_]
mahda: what is this verified data registry in the context of the Web of Things?
13:17:22 [cris_]
manu: are you going to issue VCs? or just TDs?
13:17:35 [cris_]
mahda: maybe also VCs
13:17:40 [dlongley]
s/ddsa is good, but experimental/bbs provides unlinkability, but is experimental/
13:17:55 [cris_]
manu: data integrity is not really connected with VC
13:18:20 [cris_]
... you can put a TD inside a VC
13:18:44 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:18:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:19:17 [cris_]
... trust lists can be used to identify who is allowed to issue TDs in a specific system
13:19:30 [cris_]
... the system deployment is having a list of trusted URLs
13:20:03 [andres]
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13:20:39 [cris_]
<quick round of presentation>
13:25:05 [kaz]
s/presentation/self introduction/
13:26:01 [kaz]
q+ Dominik_T
13:26:08 [kaz]
ack d
13:26:14 [kaz]
present+ Dominik_T
13:26:45 [kaz]
q?
13:26:50 [kaz]
q+
13:27:04 [Ege]
present+
13:27:15 [kaz]
ack k
13:27:42 [kaz]
s/Signing ad/Signing and/
13:27:58 [kaz]
s/ ans / and /
13:28:58 [kaz]
s/topic: Signing and Canonicalization/subtopic: Signing and Canonicalization/
13:29:03 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:29:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:29:33 [cris_]
topic: Degraded Consumption
13:30:32 [dezell]
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13:30:40 [cris_]
luca: What is consumption in WoT?
13:31:23 [cris_]
.... the act of digesting this description in order to do something is called consumption.
13:32:31 [cris_]
<luca presents the slides>
13:33:20 [kaz]
s/topic: Discussions/topic: Questions from Ege/
13:33:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:33:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:34:41 [Ege]
q?
13:36:26 [cris_]
luca: we have structural parts -> important parts that you need in order to interact with a Thing
13:36:40 [cris_]
... and auxillary information
13:38:00 [cris_]
... in our spec we allow json only consumers
13:38:16 [pchampin]
q+
13:38:29 [cris_]
... those parsers cannot deal with context information as JSON-LD processors
13:39:13 [Ege]
q?
13:39:21 [cris_]
... how much of JSON-LD I can compress to deal with json only docs
13:39:31 [cris_]
... how to get around this?
13:39:49 [cris_]
... fixed context
13:40:16 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:40:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:40:23 [cris_]
... keep the vocabulary terms as they are
13:40:40 [manu]
q+
13:40:45 [kaz]
i/What is con/Slide @@2/
13:40:59 [cris_]
pchampin: JSON-LD validation, what do you mean?
13:41:45 [cris_]
luca: in JSON-LD you can validate the vocabulary terms in relationship to the context files
13:42:28 [cris_]
pchapin: types in the context are not used for validation
13:42:41 [cris_]
... they are used for translation
13:43:08 [sebastian]
q+
13:43:17 [Ege]
q+
13:43:22 [cris_]
ack p
13:43:48 [cris_]
manu: there is a way to process JSON-LD in a degraded fashion, there is a section in VC about it
13:44:05 [cris_]
... JSON-LD is built to be used only when needed
13:44:25 [cris_]
... in the VC data model, we have processors that do not do the JSON-LD processing
13:44:34 [cris_]
... we are using well-know context urls
13:44:55 [Ege]
q?
13:44:55 [cris_]
q+
13:45:26 [Ege]
ack m
13:45:26 [pchampin]
q+
13:46:30 [cris_]
... also we ask to freeze the context and cryptographically sign it
13:46:30 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/ Verifiable Credentials Data Model v2.0
13:47:04 [kaz]
q?
13:47:04 [cris_]
... there is a slimmer profile of json-ld to do just json only processor
13:47:24 [cris_]
seb: background on the whys we allow JSON only parsing
13:48:04 [cris_]
...in IoT world we have constraints
13:48:23 [cris_]
... JSON is known to work in that context
13:48:31 [cris_]
... we had push backs for developers
13:50:20 [cris_]
... syntax lite parsing and validating might be possible
13:50:20 [cris_]
luca: we need to explain all of this in the specification
13:50:29 [cris_]
... otherwise implementers would get this wrong.
13:50:48 [cris_]
... for example if there is a json-ld profile that helps we need to link it
13:51:12 [manu]
q+ to suggest not using prefixes if you are looking for JSON processing
13:51:18 [sebastian]
ack s
13:51:56 [Ege]
q-
13:52:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:52:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:52:44 [cris_]
manu: conflict between JSON and JSON-LD is common
13:53:01 [cris_]
... not using prefixes, should help
13:53:19 [cris_]
... also JSON guys not link ":"
13:54:25 [cris_]
cris: is going to be hard due to linking bindings
13:54:53 [cris_]
seb: we can use form level context
13:55:03 [luca_barbato]
q+
13:55:05 [cris_]
<Ege shows examples"
13:56:00 [cris_]
manu: we also remove : and call terms in camel case. Like cov:methodName -> covMethodName
13:56:38 [Ege]
q?
13:56:42 [Ege]
ack c
13:57:22 [cris_]
cris: why we should also fix the order of the contexts?
13:58:05 [cris_]
manu: is important to avoid redifinition and security attacks.
13:58:29 [cris_]
... do not let redefine terms of the standard.
13:58:51 [cris_]
q?
13:58:59 [manu]
q-
13:59:34 [cris_]
pchampin: JSON schema and JSON-LD offer different purposes
13:59:56 [seabass]
seabass has joined #wot
14:00:00 [cris_]
... we are going to discuss these points in the breakout session
14:00:11 [Ege]
related breakout session https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/8
14:00:28 [seabass]
present+
14:01:00 [cris_]
luca: our implementation experience as long as the prefix are fixed that is good.
14:01:09 [kaz]
i|we also remove|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-50 Example 50|
14:01:11 [cris_]
... the changing of the prefix is problematic
14:01:18 [kaz]
s/examples"/examples>/
14:01:44 [cris_]
ege: ty for preparing the discussion
14:01:53 [cris_]
topic: Other serialization formats
14:02:02 [cris_]
ege: TD is a information model
14:02:13 [cris_]
... currently we just support JSON and JSON-LD
14:02:19 [cris_]
... having more format is good
14:02:37 [cris_]
... YAML-LD allows comments
14:02:48 [cris_]
... CBoR-LD have some benefits
14:02:58 [cris_]
... there is existing work on this
14:03:09 [cris_]
... YAML-LD is part of the JSON-LD
14:03:34 [cris_]
... what is the current state of these special formats?
14:04:18 [manu]
q+ to speak to CBOR-LD timeline (and were it's deployed), how to canonicalize?
14:04:23 [gkellogg]
q+
14:04:28 [cris_]
ack pc
14:04:29 [cris_]
ack lu
14:04:29 [manu]
q- later
14:04:55 [cris_]
gkellogg: json-ld wg is working consistently on the YAML-LD
14:05:06 [cris_]
... we are planning to create a CG by the end of the year
14:05:06 [kaz]
i/TD is a/Slides: @@3/
14:05:25 [pchampin]
q+
14:06:30 [cris_]
... json is a subside of YAML
14:06:35 [Ege]
q+
14:06:54 [cris_]
... cbor should benefit of the same intermediate form
14:06:59 [cris_]
ack g
14:07:16 [cris_]
manu: CBOR-LD has been deployed to prod system
14:08:32 [cris_]
... however, the spec is in not in its best shape
14:08:42 [cris_]
... we are focusing on other points
14:09:26 [pchampin]
q-
14:09:45 [cris_]
... you can go from any signed JSON-LD and go to CBOR-LD or YAML-LD pretty easily
14:10:07 [sebastian]
sebastian has joined #wot
14:10:24 [Ege]
q?
14:10:24 [cris_]
... the spec is open for contributions
14:10:24 [cris_]
ack m
14:10:24 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to speak to CBOR-LD timeline (and were it's deployed), how to canonicalize?
14:10:52 [cris_]
Ege: do you see difference in adoption between JSON-LD and YAML-LD
14:10:59 [cris_]
manu: small percentage
14:11:40 [dape]
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14:11:42 [cris_]
gkellog: People like YAML, the model is similar to JSON
14:12:52 [cris_]
topic: Linting
14:13:03 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:13:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:13:32 [cris_]
ege: lately there have been an emergence of tool to validate Open API
14:13:38 [cris_]
... or other descriptions
14:13:45 [Mizushima_]
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14:13:48 [gkellogg]
q+
14:13:52 [cris_]
... how can we do for the TD?
14:14:51 [manu]
q+ to mention safe mode, linting, etc.
14:15:00 [Ege]
ack e
14:15:07 [cris_]
... are there any mechanism within json-ld? did you ever discuss about linting JSON-LD documents?
14:15:32 [manu]
q+ to also mention JSON Schema
14:15:40 [cris_]
gkellogg: from the spec perspective the best way is to look at SHACL
14:15:48 [cris_]
... it is powerful
14:17:46 [cris_]
... there are tools that compare a graph to the idial end result.
14:18:30 [Ege]
q?
14:18:33 [Ege]
ack g
14:18:39 [cris_]
manu: +1 to greg
14:18:40 [manu]
ack manu
14:18:40 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to mention safe mode, linting, etc. and to also mention JSON Schema
14:19:03 [cris_]
... couple of things: json-ld processor have safe mode
14:19:17 [cris_]
... safe mode stops if finds something that is undefined.
14:19:36 [gkellogg]
It will also generate an error if an attempt to redefine a protected term is detected.
14:20:12 [cris_]
... aside from that the other well-know tool for linting is json schema
14:20:26 [cris_]
... but the object needs to be a definitive shape.
14:21:19 [cris_]
... btw jsonld playground there are warnings
14:21:33 [cris_]
... we want to add other things
14:21:50 [cris_]
... like a warning for the default vocabulary
14:22:26 [cris_]
... linting is tending to be application specific
14:22:30 [Ege]
q+
14:22:41 [cris_]
... but let us know if you find something that is generic
14:23:13 [cris_]
ege: from the standardization pov
14:23:24 [cris_]
... we should find a way to define those rules
14:23:29 [cris_]
... in a common way
14:23:55 [cris_]
manu: in VC we use a property to define a schema for that
14:24:00 [cris_]
... file
14:24:06 [cris_]
s/file/field/
14:24:57 [Ege]
q?
14:24:57 [cris_]
q?
14:24:57 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:24:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:25:34 [Ege]
ack e
14:25:34 [kaz]
q+
14:25:40 [kaz]
ack k
14:25:43 [Gregory]
Thanks everyone.
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14:28:48 [Geun-Hyung]
quit
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