12:37:35 RRSAgent has joined #wot 12:37:39 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-irc 12:39:15 topic: introduction to WoT 12:39:15 pchampin has joined #wot 12:39:15 sebastian has joined #wot 12:39:15 12:39:57 meeting: JSON-LD WG, WoT WG, RCH WG Joint Meeting 12:40:10 i/ege show/scribenick: cris_/ 12:40:52 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 12:40:52 rrsagent, make log public 12:40:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:40:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:41:01 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 12:41:42 present+ 12:41:44 ege: I want to introduce the discovery specificiation because is in the interest of JSON-LD group 12:41:44 i/ege show/Slides: @@@/ 12:41:44 present+ 12:41:44 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 12:42:03 ... you can discover Thing Description using DID 12:42:37 q+ 12:42:37 topic: Discussions 12:42:41 present+ 12:42:47 hyojin has joined #wot 12:42:47 present+ 12:42:48 present+ 12:42:58 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 12:42:59 present+ 12:43:04 present+ 12:43:07 present+ 12:43:13 present+ Benjamin_Young 12:43:14 present+ Gregory Saumier-Finch 12:43:22 dezell has joined #wot 12:43:22 present+ 12:43:23 present+ 12:43:28 wonsuk has joined #wot 12:43:33 present+ David_Ezell 12:44:11 mahda has joined #wot 12:44:11 topic: Signing ad Canonicalization 12:44:11 ethieblin has joined #wot 12:44:11 jyrossi has joined #wot 12:44:12 minyongli has joined #wot 12:44:13 present+ mahda_noura 12:44:23 tgra_ has joined #wot 12:44:23 present+ 12:44:24 present+ Wonsuk_Lee 12:45:01 present+ 12:45:01 ege: we worked on Canonicalization ans Signing but it didn't make to the final spec 12:45:01 present+ Elodie_Thieblin 12:45:02 12:45:07 q? 12:45:11 ack k 12:45:47 markus_sabadello has joined #wot 12:45:53 mahda: with signing we can prove that a TD has not been changed 12:45:58 present+ 12:45:58 present+ GeunHyung_Kim 12:46:05 dape has joined #wot 12:46:10 ... plus we can share a part of a TD instead of the whole file 12:46:17 i/with/topic: Signing and Canonicalization/ 12:46:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:46:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:46:35 q+ to speak to some of these questions 12:46:36 present+ Daniel_Peintner 12:46:42 present+ Minyong_Li 12:47:24 mahda: if we can sign a TD what about linked resources? 12:47:24 ... we identified a couple of mechanisms 12:47:24 ... hash link 12:47:24 ... ipfs 12:47:40 q? 12:47:46 ... also which signature scheme is appropriate for TDs? 12:47:54 manu: thank you for having us here 12:47:59 phila has joined #wot 12:48:04 ... we have good answers 12:48:12 present+ 12:48:42 ... is there a selective Disclosure in JSON-LD ? yes, we have but it is fairly new. 12:48:52 https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-di-ecdsa/#ecdsa-sd-2023 12:49:03 nhk-ryo has joined #wot 12:49:13 i/is there/subtopic: Selective Disclosure/ 12:49:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:49:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:49:41 manu: check the link above 12:50:08 q+ 12:50:18 ... another mechanism is to issue multiple versions 12:50:23 ack m 12:50:23 manu, you wanted to speak to some of these questions 12:50:33 ack e 12:50:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:50:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:50:45 ege: with TD we always said that there is one version live, multiple versions is complex 12:50:50 chair: Ege 12:50:53 ... what is the right approach? 12:51:16 manu: selective disclosure is inherently more complex. 12:51:18 q+ 12:51:37 ... if you are dealing with regular size computing machines is not an issue 12:51:45 ... but of course with IoT devices is different 12:51:46 Selective Disclosure for Data Integrity: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1d-04kIWhPuNscsAyUuRH3pduqrNerhigCWahKe6SNos/edit# 12:51:56 present+ Ryo_Yasuoka 12:52:04 ... the is a slide deck (linked above) 12:52:08 q+ 12:52:31 ege: in the TDD you can answer with part of the TD 12:52:39 ... it is relevant in this use case too 12:52:49 ack e 12:52:51 manu: yeah 12:53:30 ... there is some work in IETF, SDJWT 12:54:18 luca: the part there is interesting is the trust model 12:54:46 ... also another part is what parts of a TD you can share (confidentiality) 12:55:10 ... on way to handle this is to present the TD in different ways depending who is accessing it 12:55:29 ... everything dynamic should be a property 12:55:43 q? 12:55:45 ack l 12:56:04 ... and there you can have once again different auth technologies 12:56:21 q- 12:56:25 ... for greenfield we can choose state of the art techs 12:56:38 q? 12:57:01 subtopic: Integrity of Linked Data 12:57:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:57:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:57:29 manu: we dealt with this in the Verifiable Credentials WG 12:57:38 ... two approaches: 12:57:49 ... digest 12:58:52 q+ default TD values: present vs not present, e.g., contentType 12:59:00 q+ to default TD values: present vs not present, e.g., contentType 12:59:01 ... the downside is that if the remote resource allows different mediatypes you need a way to discrbie digest for multiple content-type 12:59:02 q? 12:59:06 ... all of this fairly new 12:59:26 ... second approach is related resources 12:59:58 ... in property related resources you add that link information and the digest 13:00:17 ... are you interesting in something that it is in the TD and links to something external right? 13:00:31 13:01:29 q+ 13:01:35 manu: with something like TD links you would probably add the digest property 13:01:59 q? 13:02:10 ack d 13:02:10 dape, you wanted to default TD values: present vs not present, e.g., contentType 13:02:30 i|ege shows|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-link-to-developer-documentation Example 28: Link to developer documentation from WoT Thing Description 1.1 13:02:36 rrsagent, draft minute 13:02:36 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', kaz. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:02:52 dape: About canonicalization process, in the TD we have the default values. How to deal with this mechanism for signing? 13:03:17 q? 13:03:21 q+ 13:03:27 s/rrsagent, draft minute// 13:03:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:03:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:04:11 manu: there are two ways: it depends on **when** you apply the default values 13:04:11 ... if you do it before signing 13:04:11 ... it requires a pre-processing 13:04:27 ... the other approach is just not signing them at all 13:05:49 q+ 13:06:21 dape: what is the best way then? 13:06:55 manu: you have to think the about the attack model to understand which one is the best 13:06:57 q- 13:06:58 ack dape 13:06:59 q? 13:07:05 q? 13:07:42 seb: we also the security requirements that applies to affordances, we can also apply it to links 13:07:51 ack s 13:07:52 ack s 13:08:47 phchampin: on signing there are three levels in RDF. Concret syntaxes, the graph model, and the semantics. 13:09:16 ... it seems that what we are looking for is a semantic signing, which is challenging 13:09:53 ... gut feeling is to go with option 2 13:10:06 ... and +1 for analyzing the threat model. 13:10:17 subtopic: signature schemes 13:10:41 manu: sharing links: 13:10:44 https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-integrity/ 13:11:32 manu: vc data integrity, support multiple caninocalization schemes 13:11:41 https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-di-eddsa/ 13:11:45 https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-di-ecdsa/ 13:12:00 manu: there are two cryptographic schemes 13:12:06 ... linked above 13:12:13 ... both would work 13:12:34 ... if you are interesting for signature working in YAML too 13:12:47 s/intersting/interested/ 13:13:06 ... we can go with eddsa 13:13:09 q+ 13:13:22 ack pchampin 13:14:22 q? 13:14:27 manu: ddsa is good, but experimental 13:14:46 q? 13:15:28 seb: do you have a feeling on when are going to go public? 13:15:36 manu: in two days 13:15:43 ethieblin has joined #wot 13:16:03 ack s 13:16:07 subtopic: Actors in VC 13:17:07 mahda: what is this verified data registry in the context of the Web of Things? 13:17:22 manu: are you going to issue VCs? or just TDs? 13:17:35 mahda: maybe also VCs 13:17:40 s/ddsa is good, but experimental/bbs provides unlinkability, but is experimental/ 13:17:55 manu: data integrity is not really connected with VC 13:18:20 ... you can put a TD inside a VC 13:18:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:18:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:19:17 ... trust lists can be used to identify who is allowed to issue TDs in a specific system 13:19:30 ... the system deployment is having a list of trusted URLs 13:20:03 andres has joined #wot 13:20:39 13:25:05 s/presentation/self introduction/ 13:26:01 q+ Dominik_T 13:26:08 ack d 13:26:14 present+ Dominik_T 13:26:45 q? 13:26:50 q+ 13:27:04 present+ 13:27:15 ack k 13:27:42 s/Signing ad/Signing and/ 13:27:58 s/ ans / and / 13:28:58 s/topic: Signing and Canonicalization/subtopic: Signing and Canonicalization/ 13:29:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:29:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:29:33 topic: Degraded Consumption 13:30:32 dezell has joined #wot 13:30:40 luca: What is consumption in WoT? 13:31:23 .... the act of digesting this description in order to do something is called consumption. 13:32:31 13:33:20 s/topic: Discussions/topic: Questions from Ege/ 13:33:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:33:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:34:41 q? 13:36:26 luca: we have structural parts -> important parts that you need in order to interact with a Thing 13:36:40 ... and auxillary information 13:38:00 ... in our spec we allow json only consumers 13:38:16 q+ 13:38:29 ... those parsers cannot deal with context information as JSON-LD processors 13:39:13 q? 13:39:21 ... how much of JSON-LD I can compress to deal with json only docs 13:39:31 ... how to get around this? 13:39:49 ... fixed context 13:40:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:40:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:40:23 ... keep the vocabulary terms as they are 13:40:40 q+ 13:40:45 i/What is con/Slide @@2/ 13:40:59 pchampin: JSON-LD validation, what do you mean? 13:41:45 luca: in JSON-LD you can validate the vocabulary terms in relationship to the context files 13:42:28 pchapin: types in the context are not used for validation 13:42:41 ... they are used for translation 13:43:08 q+ 13:43:17 q+ 13:43:22 ack p 13:43:48 manu: there is a way to process JSON-LD in a degraded fashion, there is a section in VC about it 13:44:05 ... JSON-LD is built to be used only when needed 13:44:25 ... in the VC data model, we have processors that do not do the JSON-LD processing 13:44:34 ... we are using well-know context urls 13:44:55 q? 13:44:55 q+ 13:45:26 ack m 13:45:26 q+ 13:46:30 ... also we ask to freeze the context and cryptographically sign it 13:46:30 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/ Verifiable Credentials Data Model v2.0 13:47:04 q? 13:47:04 ... there is a slimmer profile of json-ld to do just json only processor 13:47:24 seb: background on the whys we allow JSON only parsing 13:48:04 ...in IoT world we have constraints 13:48:23 ... JSON is known to work in that context 13:48:31 ... we had push backs for developers 13:50:20 ... syntax lite parsing and validating might be possible 13:50:20 luca: we need to explain all of this in the specification 13:50:29 ... otherwise implementers would get this wrong. 13:50:48 ... for example if there is a json-ld profile that helps we need to link it 13:51:12 q+ to suggest not using prefixes if you are looking for JSON processing 13:51:18 ack s 13:51:56 q- 13:52:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:52:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:52:44 manu: conflict between JSON and JSON-LD is common 13:53:01 ... not using prefixes, should help 13:53:19 ... also JSON guys not link ":" 13:54:25 cris: is going to be hard due to linking bindings 13:54:53 seb: we can use form level context 13:55:03 q+ 13:55:05 manu: we also remove : and call terms in camel case. Like cov:methodName -> covMethodName 13:56:38 q? 13:56:42 ack c 13:57:22 cris: why we should also fix the order of the contexts? 13:58:05 manu: is important to avoid redifinition and security attacks. 13:58:29 ... do not let redefine terms of the standard. 13:58:51 q? 13:58:59 q- 13:59:34 pchampin: JSON schema and JSON-LD offer different purposes 13:59:56 seabass has joined #wot 14:00:00 ... we are going to discuss these points in the breakout session 14:00:11 related breakout session https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/8 14:00:28 present+ 14:01:00 luca: our implementation experience as long as the prefix are fixed that is good. 14:01:09 i|we also remove|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-50 Example 50| 14:01:11 ... the changing of the prefix is problematic 14:01:18 s/examples"/examples>/ 14:01:44 ege: ty for preparing the discussion 14:01:53 topic: Other serialization formats 14:02:02 ege: TD is a information model 14:02:13 ... currently we just support JSON and JSON-LD 14:02:19 ... having more format is good 14:02:37 ... YAML-LD allows comments 14:02:48 ... CBoR-LD have some benefits 14:02:58 ... there is existing work on this 14:03:09 ... YAML-LD is part of the JSON-LD 14:03:34 ... what is the current state of these special formats? 14:04:18 q+ to speak to CBOR-LD timeline (and were it's deployed), how to canonicalize? 14:04:23 q+ 14:04:28 ack pc 14:04:29 ack lu 14:04:29 q- later 14:04:55 gkellogg: json-ld wg is working consistently on the YAML-LD 14:05:06 ... we are planning to create a CG by the end of the year 14:05:06 i/TD is a/Slides: @@3/ 14:05:25 q+ 14:06:30 ... json is a subside of YAML 14:06:35 q+ 14:06:54 ... cbor should benefit of the same intermediate form 14:06:59 ack g 14:07:16 manu: CBOR-LD has been deployed to prod system 14:08:32 ... however, the spec is in not in its best shape 14:08:42 ... we are focusing on other points 14:09:26 q- 14:09:45 ... you can go from any signed JSON-LD and go to CBOR-LD or YAML-LD pretty easily 14:10:07 sebastian has joined #wot 14:10:24 q? 14:10:24 ... the spec is open for contributions 14:10:24 ack m 14:10:24 manu, you wanted to speak to CBOR-LD timeline (and were it's deployed), how to canonicalize? 14:10:52 Ege: do you see difference in adoption between JSON-LD and YAML-LD 14:10:59 manu: small percentage 14:11:40 dape has joined #wot 14:11:42 gkellog: People like YAML, the model is similar to JSON 14:12:52 topic: Linting 14:13:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:13:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 14:13:32 ege: lately there have been an emergence of tool to validate Open API 14:13:38 ... or other descriptions 14:13:45 Mizushima_ has joined #wot 14:13:48 q+ 14:13:52 ... how can we do for the TD? 14:14:51 q+ to mention safe mode, linting, etc. 14:15:00 ack e 14:15:07 ... are there any mechanism within json-ld? did you ever discuss about linting JSON-LD documents? 14:15:32 q+ to also mention JSON Schema 14:15:40 gkellogg: from the spec perspective the best way is to look at SHACL 14:15:48 ... it is powerful 14:17:46 ... there are tools that compare a graph to the idial end result. 14:18:30 q? 14:18:33 ack g 14:18:39 manu: +1 to greg 14:18:40 ack manu 14:18:40 manu, you wanted to mention safe mode, linting, etc. and to also mention JSON Schema 14:19:03 ... couple of things: json-ld processor have safe mode 14:19:17 ... safe mode stops if finds something that is undefined. 14:19:36 It will also generate an error if an attempt to redefine a protected term is detected. 14:20:12 ... aside from that the other well-know tool for linting is json schema 14:20:26 ... but the object needs to be a definitive shape. 14:21:19 ... btw jsonld playground there are warnings 14:21:33 ... we want to add other things 14:21:50 ... like a warning for the default vocabulary 14:22:26 ... linting is tending to be application specific 14:22:30 q+ 14:22:41 ... but let us know if you find something that is generic 14:23:13 ege: from the standardization pov 14:23:24 ... we should find a way to define those rules 14:23:29 ... in a common way 14:23:55 manu: in VC we use a property to define a schema for that 14:24:00 ... file 14:24:06 s/file/field/ 14:24:57 q? 14:24:57 q? 14:24:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:24:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-wot-minutes.html kaz 14:25:34 ack e 14:25:34 q+ 14:25:40 ack k 14:25:43 Thanks everyone. 14:25:48 minyongli has left #wot 14:25:54 Gregory has left #wot 14:28:48 quit 14:38:09 gkellogg has joined #wot 14:48:25 nhk-ryo has joined #wot 14:56:28 gkellogg has joined #wot 14:59:22 phila has joined #wot 15:12:28 gkellogg has joined #wot 15:15:48 nhk-ryo has left #wot 15:33:32 gkellogg has joined #wot 15:49:50 gkellogg has joined #wot 16:00:03 nhk-ryo has joined #wot 16:06:21 gkellogg has joined #wot 16:24:08 gkellogg has joined #wot 16:36:17 ryo has joined #wot 16:41:28 Zakim has left #wot 16:44:03 gkellogg has joined #wot 17:00:51 gkellogg has joined #wot 17:01:51 manu has joined #wot 17:05:11 gkellogg has joined #wot 17:11:16 gkellogg_ has joined #wot 17:22:06 gkellogg has joined #wot 17:57:06 gkellogg has joined #wot 18:05:42 gkellogg has joined #wot 18:13:25 gkellogg has joined #wot 18:35:07 gkellogg has joined #wot 18:53:47 gkellogg has joined #wot 19:03:57