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12:35:43 <dontcallmeDOM_> Present+ DanDruta, GeoffGustafson, DapengLiu, LouayBassbouss, MichaelMcCool, SongXU, Sudeep, DomHazael-Massieux
12:36:00 <Song> Song has joined #web-networks
12:36:06 <dontcallmeDOM_> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Networks/TPAC2023
12:36:15 <dontcallmeDOM_> Chairs: Dan, Sudeep, Song
12:36:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> Meeting: Web & Networks Interest Group
12:37:13 <dontcallmeDOM_> Present+ PiersOHanlon
12:39:49 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: [introducing the Web & Networks IG meeting]
12:40:12 <dontcallmeDOM_> Slideset: https://github.com/w3c/web-networks/blob/main/meetings/W3C_WNIG_TPAC2023_V1.pdf
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12:41:44 <dontcallmeDOM_> Slideset: https://github.com/1e66b771-cefc-4d10-a568-21150dad604c
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12:45:01 <dontcallmeDOM_> Present+ LinLi, SteveHarrison, @@@_WoT, Mirja_Kühlewind
12:45:28 <dontcallmeDOM_> Present+ Geun-Hyung_Kim
12:46:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 4]
12:47:24 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: the IG is missioned to explore solutions for Web Apps that leverage network capabilities
12:47:24 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... this included enabling apps to provide hints to the network on their needs, and vice-versa
12:47:50 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 5]
12:48:09 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: more recently, our focus has been on 3 specific areas:
12:48:38 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... - edge computing - even though it remains unclear how edge computing will materialize from a business & operational perspectives, we feel it's important we get the technical aspects understood in advance
12:48:49 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... - network quality monitoring & prediction
12:48:53 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... - network emulation
12:49:05 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 6]
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12:49:49 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 7]
12:50:29 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 8]
12:50:59 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: for edge computing, we've developed use cases to understand the intersection between browsers and edge computing
12:51:14 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... and have explored different approaches that would allow offloading computing tasks
12:51:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... involving web assembly, web workers, etc
12:51:39 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... surfacing those in a technical note
12:51:55 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 9]
12:51:57 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 10]
12:52:41 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 11]
12:52:47 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 12]
12:53:22 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: we haven't done much lately in that space; there was interest on this, but we would still need to put a package together similar to what we did for edge computing
12:53:28 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 13]
12:53:31 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 14]
12:53:56 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 15]
12:54:17 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: Edge computing so far has received the biggest focus of the group
12:55:50 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 16]
12:56:01 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: our current charter ends at the end of October, we're in the process of rechartering - please comment on the proposed draft charter
12:56:30 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 17]
12:56:49 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: there are interesting intersections with ongoing discussions e.g. around energy saving and efficiency
12:57:52 <dontcallmeDOM_> Geoff: can you say more about the split browser model?
12:58:43 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: way back in the ways when mobile bandwidth was limited, there was this approach of a split browser where an element in the network did some pre-rendering before sending it back in an efficient format to the end client
12:59:19 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... this is more of analogy - e.g. for situations where taking advantage of more GPU or CPU powers from the network
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13:01:43 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dom: the TR publication of the IG Note is awaiting a last round of edits on the conclusion
13:02:32 <dontcallmeDOM_> Slideset: https://github.com/d317c261-9d2a-4071-8744-aab257bed1bc
13:02:47 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 1]
13:02:49 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 2]
13:03:30 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 3]
13:04:11 <dontcallmeDOM_> Song: SUL - Super UpLink
13:04:11 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... most usages focus on downlink
13:04:49 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... but there are a number of scenarios that rely on uplink capabilities
13:05:10 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... that has been a focus on some discussions in the 5G and 6G context
13:06:10 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... e.G. manufacturing scenarios, or immersive broadcasting
13:07:01 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... this is not just about increased bandwidth - it needs collaboration with the application layer and other actors of the ecosystem
13:07:34 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... 5GA (5G advanced) will introduce cloud edge and improvements in the client
13:08:33 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... in the context of the Web, WebRTC isn't always a proper solution - e.g. RTMP is still used for uplink streaming
13:08:56 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... HLS is used for downlink streaming - what role for WebTransport?
13:09:22 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... looking at the end 2 end picture, biggest delays come from the RTMP push and buffering of adaptive streaming
13:09:54 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: is this related to the use cases in the edge use case doc?
13:10:05 <dontcallmeDOM_> Song: this was a use case presented last year
13:10:15 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: see https://w3c.github.io/edge-computing-web-exploration/#UC-SA
13:11:09 <dontcallmeDOM_> Song: with transports based on TCP, a weak network is going to have a big impact
13:11:35 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... also H265 isn't available with webRTC
13:13:13 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 4]
13:15:30 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 5]
13:17:06 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 6]
13:18:21 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 7]
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13:19:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 8]
13:22:01 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 9]
13:23:03 <dontcallmeDOM_> -> https://wasmedge.org/ WasmEdge
13:23:52 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 10]
13:25:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> -> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-19.html Low Latency, Low Loss, Scalable Throughput (L4S) Internet Service: Architecture
13:27:08 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 11]
13:29:28 <dontcallmeDOM_> Present+ EricSiow
13:30:14 <dontcallmeDOM_> [slide 12]
13:32:39 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: we should try to consolidate these use cases with our existing ones
13:32:57 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... do these new use cases fit in existing categories or do they need new ones?
13:33:01 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... do they bring new requirements?
13:33:13 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... do they require involvement of new stakeholders / new collaboration requirements?
13:35:15 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dom: the scope is different - not all the described use cases rely on edge computing technology
13:35:29 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... let's only bring them those that are in the intersection
13:35:44 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: right, but we should make sure the ones that overlap get documented in our existing doc
13:36:01 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... and the ones that don't, we should look at doing a similar exercise for that other scope
13:36:25 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: maybe we need a bigger picture explainer on relationship between edge computing and network capabilities
13:36:32 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... or a broader use cases document for the group
13:36:56 <dontcallmeDOM_> Sudeep: when we started the IG, we had 3 streams: edge computing, network link prediction and monitoring, and tools
13:37:39 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... now we're at looking at next generation use cases - we may need to draw a venn diagram with our existing workstreams and workstreams in other standardization landscapes
13:39:34 <dontcallmeDOM_> Song: +1 to what Dan said in terms of integration and complementing the use cases
13:39:57 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: it would be interesting to identify which new requirements are raised by these use cases
13:40:33 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: an open question - our next steps include figuring which stakeholders are needed around the table
13:41:12 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... particularly key in the open environment of the Web where pre-existing trust relationships can't work as in more controlled environments
13:41:27 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... understanding how they would work in the context of the loosely coupled relationships of the eb Platform
13:42:28 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dom: let's make sure we identify clear next steps to follow up on these ideas
13:42:52 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: our current doc is not finished for sure; e.g. the trust model or negotation of quality assurances
13:43:53 <dontcallmeDOM_> Max: I would like to discuss next steps on cloud coordination use cases
13:44:16 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: Dom was asking what do we want to do next based on what has been presented
13:45:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... if there are things to be pushed to the edge explainer, that's a reasonably clear step
13:45:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... for the others, who would be spearheading that new document?
13:45:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... is this something you could be driving Song?
13:48:04 <dontcallmeDOM_> Song: will be happy to look into this with the support of the chairs
13:50:20 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dom: thanks Song! getting some inspiration on the structure of edge use cases, not necessarily focusing on pushing them in the edge use cases doc
13:50:23 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: this matches what Michael is suggesting: creating a different "advanced network use cases and requirements" documents
13:50:37 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... let's make sure we have robust stories for these use cases
13:50:52 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... in particular taking into account the loosely coupled environment of the Web
13:55:27 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: a lot of these questions depend on identify frameworks, incl (but exclusively) for people
13:55:32 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... DIDs may be part of the solution
13:57:19 <dontcallmeDOM_> i/Slideset:/Topic: Use Cases and Requirements
13:58:13 <dontcallmeDOM_> Topic: Next steps on Client/Edge/Cloud coordination document
13:58:20 <dontcallmeDOM_> Max: I think the document is pretty stable
13:58:32 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... and we should be able to publish it once we fix the last remaining issue
13:58:59 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... I think forming a CG would be a good way to incubate a solution in this space
13:59:05 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... before proposing a WG
13:59:25 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... after the publication of the document as an IG note, we can start to establish a CG
13:59:47 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... we need a title, a short description and 5 supporters to launch the group
14:00:14 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... I'm happy to prepare this if there is support
14:00:39 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: the advantage of a CG is that it allows to broaden the input to non W3C Members
14:00:44 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... this has proved useful in the WoT
14:01:21 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... we will just have to be clear on IP expectations
14:02:23 <dontcallmeDOM_> Eric: +1, esp since W3C no longer has as many telco Members as it used to
14:02:41 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... CG contributions still require RF licensing
14:02:54 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... W3C & 3GPP have very different licensing obligations, I'm not sure how to reconcile between the 2
14:03:32 <dontcallmeDOM_> DanD: you're right that some of the telco expertise moved away from W3C; that said, edge computing is much less telco oriented
14:04:11 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... it really has to do with workload offload - you probably wants more of the startup, innovators in the space of distributed computing than the telco space which tends to be a lot more rigid in the space of distributed computing
14:04:57 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... my only concern with CGs is that they can be like firecrackers - they too often fizzling up; keeping the momentum going is something that needs to be considered
14:06:45 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: you also don't get staff support
14:07:21 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dom: no issue with creating a CG from my perspective, but getting people to join and actively participate in the CG will remain the main challenge
14:07:32 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... this raises the question of who would be chairing and animating it
14:08:11 <dontcallmeDOM_> Song: I support the new CG but indeed we need to be thoughtful about engagement
14:09:34 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: indeed, figuring out the stakeholders, the target community feels critical
14:10:24 <dontcallmeDOM_> Max: thanks - this is all useful and valid input
14:12:09 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: in summary, positive feedback on the proposal, but more details needed before pushing this idea forward which we hope Max will pursue
14:12:16 <dontcallmeDOM_> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:12:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-web-networks-minutes.html dontcallmeDOM_
14:12:23 <dontcallmeDOM_> RRSAgent, make log public
14:13:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> Topic: Open Discussions
14:13:44 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: the future topics slide may be a trigger for more discussions
14:14:21 <dontcallmeDOM_> Present+ HuaqiShan
14:14:28 <dontcallmeDOM_> Present+ ShiLing
14:15:53 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: the name of our group doesn't really surface that we work on the topic of edge computing
14:16:08 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... maybe we could integrate it more clearly in the name
14:16:36 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: that makes sense
14:18:44 <dontcallmeDOM_> Sudeep: sounds reasonable; not sure how this would relate to the other discussion on a CG
14:20:41 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dom: this is about surfacing the edge in the IG name, while keeping the broader scope; the CG would be focused on solutions based on the edge use cases document
14:20:49 <dontcallmeDOM_> Sudeep: that sounds like a good proposal to me too then
14:21:48 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: Quality of Services negotiation hasn't surfaced
14:21:58 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... other subtopics under edge include workload packaging
14:22:44 <dontcallmeDOM_> DanD: re network QoS (e.g. via network slices), it has to do with the trust model
14:23:23 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... which is hard to attack in the context of the Web model
14:23:50 <dontcallmeDOM_> Michael: QoE would need to consider both communication time, computing time
14:24:26 <dontcallmeDOM_> Topic: Wrap up
14:25:34 <dontcallmeDOM_> Dan: Action items:
14:25:34 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... Song to go to the next level of details on use cases as a premise to mapping them into existing or new documents
14:25:40 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... Everybody to review the IG new charter and get it supported
14:25:43 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... Someone to include "Edge" in the name of the group
14:26:04 <dontcallmeDOM_> ... Max to propose an outreach strategy for a potential new CG in the space of client/edge/cloud coordination
14:26:25 <dontcallmeDOM_> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-web-networks-minutes.html dontcallmeDOM_
14:34:55 <dontcallmeDOM_> s|https://github.com/1e66b771-cefc-4d10-a568-21150dad604c|https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2023Sep/att-0009/W3C_WNIG_TPAC2023_V1.pdf
14:35:08 <dontcallmeDOM_> s|https://github.com/d317c261-9d2a-4071-8744-aab257bed1bc|https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2023Sep/att-0009/WNIG_UC_Study_-_Ubiquitous_Computing_____________________________________________v5.pdf
14:35:12 <dontcallmeDOM_> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:35:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-web-networks-minutes.html dontcallmeDOM_
14:35:40 <dontcallmeDOM_> RRSAgent, bye
14:35:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items