12:22:21 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 12:22:26 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-pmwg-irc 12:22:26 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:22:27 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 12:22:39 meeting: PMWG TPAC F2F Day 1 12:22:40 leonardr has joined #pmwg 12:22:45 date: 2023-09-11 12:22:51 chair: wendyreid, shiestyle 12:27:14 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 12:28:05 dauwhe has joined #pmwg 12:29:05 present+ 12:29:11 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 12:29:11 Zakim, who is here? 12:29:11 Present: dauwhe 12:29:13 On IRC I see MasakazuKitahara, dauwhe, toshiakikoike, leonardr, RRSAgent, Zakim, shiestyle, tzviya, wendyreid 12:29:15 present+ 12:29:21 present+ 12:29:21 present+ 12:29:26 present+ 12:29:36 MURATA has joined #pmwg 12:29:37 present+ 12:29:44 present+ 12:31:40 AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg 12:31:42 romain has joined #pmwg 12:31:45 ivan has joined #pmwg 12:31:47 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 12:31:48 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 12:31:48 RickJ has joined #pmwg 12:31:51 present+ 12:31:51 present+ 12:31:53 duga has joined #pmwg 12:31:53 present+ 12:31:59 present+ 12:32:00 present+ 12:32:02 present+ 12:32:03 GautierC has joined #pmwg 12:32:06 scribe+ 12:32:15 present+ 12:32:18 present+ 12:32:23 wolfgang has joined #pmwg 12:32:23 wendyreid: Welcome! 12:32:32 CharlesL has joined #PMWG 12:32:39 George has joined #pmwg 12:32:53 present+ wolfgang 12:33:09 wendyreid: 2 days of meetings, we do have a decent amount on the agenda 12:33:22 present+ 12:33:27 ... We also have some guests joining us 12:33:34 ... Hopefully we can be productive 12:33:36 q+ 12:33:42 ack duga 12:33:48 scribe+ 12:34:24 duga: this is a WG meeting, isn't it? 12:34:37 ... so do we have same rules for IP and non-disclosoure? 12:34:40 present+ 12:34:41 wendyreid: yes 12:34:44 George has joined #pmwg 12:34:52 wendyreid: Boring stuff first 12:35:02 present+ 12:35:23 ... Talk about publishing process, there are some questions from the last meeting 12:35:40 ... [link to slide deck coming] 12:36:06 present+ laurent 12:36:30 present+ wendy, shiestyle 12:36:43 present+ matt, tzviya 12:37:17 present+ makoto 12:37:34 mgarrish: Going over the W3C process for how we make changes 12:38:10 present+ wolfgang 12:38:10 ... There are 4 classes of changes 12:38:10 ... Class 1 - no content change (maybe CSS, etc) 12:39:15 ... easy, just publish when you want, no W3C approval needed 12:39:15 present+ avneesh 12:39:15 ... Class 2 modifies the text in some way, but with no normative change 12:39:48 ... Things like typos, punctuation, maybe remove a note 12:39:50 ... Also does not require approval from w3c 12:40:12 ... Class 3 updates/clarifies/changes normative statements 12:40:52 ... for example epub:type clarification of elements it applies to 12:41:44 ... mgarrish has lost audio 12:42:37 present+ billk 12:42:40 ... This requires approval 12:42:51 ... Class 4 adds new features 12:43:37 ... This is pub manifest and audiobooks only, not epub 12:44:11 https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/errata.html 12:44:11 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pmwg 12:44:16 ... There is a list of substantial and non-substantial changes 12:45:01 ... we need to tag every change with these levels 12:45:22 ... After it is tagged everything works automatically 12:45:47 ... for class 3 and 4 changes, they need to be annotate (change log isn't enough) 12:46:09 Ken_Jones has joined #pmwg 12:46:09 ... Need to make a diff with ins and del tags 12:46:18 https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#sec-xhtml-svg 12:47:24 ... See link for an example 12:47:47 q+ to add to the way changes are published 12:47:59 ... Change logs need to detail substantive changes 12:48:19 ... Only current changes are expanded, the rest are collapsed 12:48:43 ... Class 3 and 4 needs approval, but CR and PR, etc stages 12:49:01 present+ 12:49:26 ... Basically do an AC review, AC votes, then we remove the diff markup and publish the new text 12:49:46 ... WG decides when to publish 12:49:57 ... Looking at every 6 months 12:50:20 ... If we need to we can release faster 12:50:45 Reinaldo has joined #pmwg 12:50:47 ... Notes are unchanged, same process as before 12:50:59 ... changes are just done 12:51:09 ... new notes still require approval 12:51:22 q? 12:51:27 ack ivan 12:51:27 ivan, you wanted to add to the way changes are published 12:51:38 laurent_ has joined #pmwg 12:51:59 present+ 12:52:53 ivan: There is a long chain of current and previous recs, this needs to be done for various legal reasons 12:53:05 ... tooling is missing at the moment so it is a chore 12:53:54 tzviya: The sound is awful 12:54:50 q? 12:55:41 wendyreid: Do you have PRs open for us to review 12:55:48 mgarrish: There are a couple 12:56:16 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2572 12:56:39 Topic: Open PRs 12:56:57 Sub-topic: PR 2572 12:57:11 subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2572 12:57:29 mgarrish: Add "none" as an option for a11y 12:57:46 ... Better than just missing statement, since it has a clearer intent 12:58:02 q+ 12:58:03 ... This is a class 2 change 12:58:32 ack leonardr 12:58:35 ... combines informative pieces into new informative section 12:58:56 Bill_Kasdorf_ has joined #pmwg 12:59:02 leonardr: Can someone clarify the change from "may" to "can"? Does it matter? 12:59:19 present+ leonardr 12:59:25 mgarrish: This is a lowercase "may", so it is not considered a normative statement in our spec 12:59:43 I have to leave now, since I have to attend the plenary meeting of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC34. I will be back at 15:00 UTC. 13:00:22 gpellegrino: The issue was raised by the federation of European publishers 13:00:41 ... We can say several things about the a11y of the publication 13:01:07 ... It can be 1. Checked and it is ok, 2, checked and it is broken, 3. did not check 13:01:42 ... Adding this information allows us to better understand whether the file was checked or not 13:02:10 ... This is important for statistics to report to lawmakers 13:02:19 ... Also needed to align with onix 13:02:27 q? 13:02:58 wendyreid: Any other comments? 13:03:13 Proposed: Merge PR 2572 13:03:19 +1 13:03:19 +1 13:03:19 +1 13:03:20 +1 13:03:21 +1 13:03:22 +1 13:03:24 +1 13:03:25 +1 13:03:25 +1 13:03:27 +1 13:03:28 +1 13:04:11 +1 13:04:11 RESOLVED: Merge PR 2572 13:04:11 present+ Ken_Jones 13:04:11 +1 13:04:11 present+ 13:04:23 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2571 13:04:36 subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2571 13:05:04 mgarrish: EAA has 3 exemptions 13:05:22 ... onix has 3 values for these exemptions 13:05:55 ... We want to match onix 13:06:32 present+ 13:06:35 ... New note with metadata field that can be used for EAA 13:06:51 ... but also works for other jurisdictions 13:06:58 Could you repeat the three values, please? 13:07:34 gpellegrino: These are less technical and more legal 13:07:54 ... The three values are good to cover these 13:08:42 q? 13:09:17 ... There was a request to add annotations to the values, you are free to do that but we are not adding anything specifically 13:09:33 q+ 13:09:41 ... There could be a much larger quantity of these reasons 13:10:17 wendyreid: Librarians might need that, but we probably don'tt that much for epub 13:10:43 mgarrish: Doesn't seem that important to add now, we address as needed in the future 13:10:46 ack gpellegrino 13:11:22 gpellegrino: Just want to add that Christina has reviewed the note and has given her endorsement (she is very involved in EAA) 13:11:38 @bill three values are The official names of the EAA exceptions are: Microenterprise, Disproportionate burden, Fundamental alteration. 13:11:41 Proposed: Merge PR 2571 13:11:52 Thanks 13:12:32 ivan: For the publication of this note, we have to wait for TPAC to settle 13:12:46 ... And there is a week when I am on vacation 13:12:53 ... We should set Oct 3 as pub date 13:13:16 mgarrish: Do we have to decide if we are using ekidna? 13:13:28 ivan: We already decided to use eidna 13:13:31 s/ekidna/echidna/ 13:13:49 s/eidna/echidna/ 13:14:04 epub-a11y-exemption 13:14:05 shortname: epub-a11y-exemption/ 13:14:27 Proposed: Merge PR 2571, publish a new note for the Exemption property on oct 3, short name will be "epub-a11y-exemption" 13:14:30 +1 13:14:31 +1 13:14:32 +1 13:14:32 +1 13:14:33 +1 13:14:34 +1 13:14:34 +1 13:14:35 +1 13:14:36 +1 13:14:36 +1 13:14:36 +1 13:14:36 +1 13:14:39 +1 13:14:40 +1 13:14:48 RESOLVED: Merge PR 2571, publish a new note for the Exemption property on oct 3, short name will be "epub-a11y-exemption" 13:15:36 +1 13:15:36 wendyreid: Do we want to do the third one? 13:15:36 subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2527 13:15:54 mgarrish: That is old IDPF stuff, and we discussed bumping something down 13:16:08 ... Not sure if we can do that 13:16:14 ivan: It is still hanging in the air 13:16:28 mgarrish: First we need to resolve whether we can change old docs 13:16:48 wendyreid: Sounds like we need to talk to the (something) team? 13:16:57 s/(something)/system/ 13:18:56 wendyreid: Unless we have further publish process comments we can break early 13:19:49 ... in 25 minutes we will have the next session 13:20:09 ... we will start ON TIME for the next session ( we have an invited guest) 13:20:31 ... reconvene at 3:45 Seville time 13:21:20 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 13:37:25 duga has joined #pmwg 13:41:06 Daihei has joined #pmwg 13:41:22 present+ 13:42:17 liisamk_ has joined #pmwg 13:42:31 present+ 13:47:04 guest+ sebastian 13:47:04 Topic: Anti-counterfeiting 13:48:04 scribe+ 13:48:04 present+ kristina 13:48:39 guest+ Sebastian_Posth 13:48:54 guest+ shadi 13:50:20 Sebastian: growing concern fraud retail platforms print and ebooks 13:50:29 … fake accounts may sell content they dont have the rights to. 13:50:48 … possible approaches were reviewed. 13:51:10 present+ 13:51:56 Will these slides be available? 13:51:56 … tried to dev. a structured approach. will share the results. 13:52:05 … not any legal evaluations, just the technical specifics. 13:52:29 … news reports from publishers in local markets, italy, germany and usa 13:53:01 … entire books republished with fake accounts, attach fake metadata, author info etc. 13:53:18 … there is paywalls to get additional content. 13:53:44 … repos fake accounts offer own content, but use the authors data, best sellers 13:54:11 … original content is modified from the author's version 13:55:01 … fake accounts, book promoted as a best seller but the book contains empty pages but had the same cover author etc. 13:55:28 … selling reprints was another issue. 13:56:03 … publishers had to identify multiple platforms, why should the publishers do this, not the retailers? 13:56:42 … we need to identify these fake books and be proactive to remove these fake items. 13:57:35 … if we can identify a similar cover image could be a red flak. we need to determine the original version. Make public and verifiable reference to aid in identification of the fake items. 13:57:57 … Human generated vs. AI generated is another concern. 13:58:40 … visible or invisible messages into the media file. Manifest embedding, certificates, into assets metadata C2PA initiative. 13:59:18 … verifiable identification, metadata, these compliment each other and if used in combination can be a benefit 13:59:25 … funded by the EU commision. 13:59:54 … support our work on verifiable credentials. this just recently started 1 month ago. 14:00:41 … verifiable content, metadata and rights to the work. 2nd reinforcces this with public credentials. cryptographic identification. 14:01:18 … ICC originated in German Book market in 2017. 14:01:37 … ICC drafted , ISO publishing early next year. 14:02:24 … example of ICC, created directly from the digital media file 14:02:26 q? 14:03:07 … generating an ICC can be done by anyone with access to the file and uses cryptography. 14:04:03 … different versions or file formats, or content with metadata, will be similar crypto hash but will be able to deterine they are different but somewhat similar. 14:04:53 … changing the color of an image will still be able to find a match cryptographic hash, 14:05:37 … near duplicate versions / clusters can be deterined even if the content is changed slightly. this will help to find these fake digital files. 14:06:30 … decenteralized registries can be used to look up these original rights holders. 14:08:10 … Publishers can contribute to a robust network to help detect fake media files, and submit their own ICC hash codes for authentic original covers, metadata etc to these decentralized repositories. 14:09:25 … we ask you to join the anti-counterfeit task force to help us with this effort 14:09:31 q+ 14:09:46 q+ to ask how realistic publishing on blockchain is 14:09:56 q+ 14:10:02 laurent_ has joined #pmwg 14:10:04 present+ dauwhe 14:10:24 q+ 14:10:24 chair+ dauwhe, tzviya 14:11:21 q+ 14:11:42 q- 14:11:45 dauwhe: I bought a book from Norton, I realized it was counterfeit because of the quality. the one displayed was the cheeper version. 14:11:46 ack dauwhe 14:11:46 q+ 14:13:11 ack tzviya 14:13:11 tzviya, you wanted to ask how realistic publishing on blockchain is 14:13:17 Sebastian: this comes up often. I don't know what to say. best solution would be content recognition, if the same cover is by two accounts and choose the correct book publisher. 14:13:33 ack lii 14:13:58 liisamk_: Amazon is trying to resolve this. they are finding things but this is spreading fast. 14:13:59 s/is by two accounts/is used by two accounts/ 14:14:15 Ken_Jones_ has joined #pmwg 14:14:24 Ken_Jones_ has left #pmwg 14:14:29 … building a trust chain from end to end. 14:14:46 Ken_Jones__ has joined #pmwg 14:14:49 … we need to programmatically fight this. 14:15:31 q+ 14:15:32 tzviya: 1. blockchain is complicated. Most book publishers are slow moving, 2. generative AI is a big problem. 14:15:42 q? 14:15:48 q+ 14:16:02 … detecting that is very difficult. 14:16:03 ack du 14:16:59 q- later 14:17:03 duga: We did think about blockchain to break out of walled gardens, was very complex, privacy issues we decided not to go that route. 14:18:01 … Dave and Liisa wish you were here to continue this. Sebastian, this seems very technical, hackers will figure out how to circumvent anything you do. 14:19:09 … this is a complicated as there may be multiple versions all being similar trying to determine fakes from the original, but hard with multi nation entities with multiple imprints who may also have the rights. 14:19:15 ack wendy 14:19:56 q+ 14:19:58 wendyreid: who owns the rights, easier from Penguin Random House, vs some random@gmail.com publisher. 14:20:36 … we need retailers to step up when two items come in with the same name red flags should be raised. 14:21:29 … we do have to think about the self publishers, we need it simple for them to use as well. CORESOURCE would be a part of the solution here. 14:21:49 ack leonard 14:21:49 … cover can be unique, images in the book can be stolen. 14:22:46 q- 14:23:25 Sebastian_ has joined #pmwg 14:24:05 leonardr: other assets, 3D, video, mp3 etc. looking to figure out generative AI. multiple groups involved. to determine parts of text to the entire publication being AI generated. 14:24:14 ack iv 14:24:26 q+ 14:25:40 q+ 14:27:41 ack lii 14:27:41 ivan: we are the publication Maintenance WG, is there something that the EPUB standard has to adapt itself to changes/additions to work with any of these various solution. Or is there more we need to do technically. I am worried that EPUB file as 1 major binary file, its more complicated than that. how do you apply the whole coding env. with all the files inside the EPUB. What this WG should do vs. laywers need to do ect. 14:27:41 https://www.amazon.com/L%CD%8F%D6%BC%CE%95%CD%8F%D0%85%CD%8F%D0%85%CD%8F%CE%9F%CD%8F%CE%9D%D6%BC%CD%8F%D0%85-%CE%99%CE%9D-%D0%A1%CD%8F%D6%BC%D0%9D%CD%8F%CE%95%CE%9C%CD%8F%CE%99%D6%BC%CD%8F%D0%85%CD%8F%D0%A2%CD%8FR%CD%8F%CE%A5-S%D1%96gned-Ed%D1%96tion-ebook/dp/B0BXYG9Y98/ref=sr_1_20?crid=ZMJN1RVLRF2W&keywords=lessons+in+chemistry&qid=1694441424&sprefix=lessons+in+chemistry%2Caps%2C317&sr=8-20 14:27:41 liisamk_: Shows an example. 14:27:41 … metadata is slightly changed. cover may be changed 14:27:41 … but this is not PRH selling this book. 14:27:50 … either we will tell Amazon this is a fake, or Amazon will find this and remove this title. 14:27:56 q? 14:28:18 q+ 14:28:47 … would be easy for a small publishing house to consider this. the blockchain is used for immutable verifiable transactions. 14:29:01 q+ 14:29:02 MD5 (9780774867740.epub) = 761ef29ed57c3d01101d660c9d46ef3d 14:29:06 ack leo 14:30:31 q+ to ask who hosts the blockchain 14:30:31 ack seb 14:30:31 leonardr: To Ivan, Maybe, whatever solution we come up with or multiple solutions we could require changes to EPUB we leveraged certain file formats and may require changes to bring to those groups. yes there are changes are required but where that happens is another conversation. 14:32:28 Sebastian: these codes can be generated from the EPUB files, and we are working with creating these hash codes that make it easy to do and very fast. Huge amount of development make it to utilize the block chain without the need for crypto currencies / wallets / NFTs etc. so you wouldn't even know you are using the blockchain. 14:32:53 … verifiable credentials has a lot of use cases. 14:33:16 … we need to see what that technology can do for us. 14:33:45 ack wen 14:35:59 wendyreid: What does it mean for this WG? either ICC / CPA codes etc. how do we express them in EPUB. Is it even appropriate or is this outside of EPUB. Content creator and content reseller. WE need to consider that. if we want it in EPUB does it make sense. how would this work in publishing. Are retailers willing to do this. Are they going to implement this. 14:36:01 ack tz 14:36:01 tzviya, you wanted to ask who hosts the blockchain 14:36:22 q+ 14:36:35 tzviya: Who is hosting the blockchain, what is footprint of the blockchain. 14:36:43 ack Seb 14:36:52 … is there an expense to this. 14:36:53 s/CPA/C2PA/ 14:38:04 ^^ Thanks @wendyreid 14:38:41 Sebastian, there is no need to embed ICC codes in the EPUB. the interesting part is ICC code is external / no code/ id/hash into the EPUB. you just use an ICC generator. We discussed using ICC codes from publisher to retailers, to aid in deduplication, etc. we didn't use any blockchain it was just peer to peer. 14:39:10 s/ICC/ISCC 14:39:12 s/Sebastian,/Sebastian:/ 14:39:23 q? 14:39:27 … everything is proof of steak, not proof of work so no env. impact. 14:40:04 … provides a timestamp and your signature and you can sign your public key and your wallet address can be certified. 14:40:26 q? 14:40:36 digital signature is a huge deal, and you can digitally sign your creative works and others can verify it is really you. 14:40:41 q+ 14:40:44 ack du 14:41:12 q+ to say that I'm missing something 14:41:18 q+ 14:41:28 q+ 14:42:08 ack tz 14:42:08 tzviya, you wanted to say that I'm missing something 14:42:13 duga: I worry the issue here is source of proof of rights of publications are private contracts and as long as that is true, how can you make verifiable claims. author gave the rights to another entity who may also have the rights to sell that book. there are n number of private contracts 14:42:44 q+ 14:43:11 tzviya: we must be missing something. a demo would be helpful. 14:43:30 ack dau 14:43:48 only since the dawn of ONIX... 14:43:48 ack Seb 14:43:48 dauwhe: expressing digital rights is complicated. 14:44:09 q+ to ask what next as PM? 14:44:40 Sebastian: demo 1 min. contracts representing the rights holders, and they have the address / wallets. 14:46:23 zakim, close the queue 14:46:23 ok, dauwhe, the speaker queue is closed 14:46:57 … Shows an example. I generate the ICC code and can be tested.A plugin can be used to generate the ICC code and the fake image found on X, shows the original with the real credentials vs. a fake one 14:48:16 ack iv 14:48:16 ivan, you wanted to ask what next as PM? 14:48:29 ivan: what is the next step for Publishing Maintenance WG? 14:55:04 Ken_Jones has joined #pmwg 15:02:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:02:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/11-pmwg-minutes.html ivan 15:04:41 Topic: EPUB/A 15:04:47 scribe+ 15:05:02 duga has joined #pmwg 15:05:39 guest+ alicia 15:05:41 tzviya: I now introduce Alicia Wise for this proposal on EPUB/A 15:05:54 alicia: I have a background in libraries and archive 15:06:25 ... we collect publications from all around the world and our goal is to archive content for future 15:06:48 ... I would like to speak about long-term preservation 15:08:35 ... it's important to preserve publications, in history we've seen cases of burning books to "delete" history of people and cultures 15:09:10 ... ISO maintains standard for preservation of different formats of digital publications 15:09:36 ... I've been asked to join a group in ISO for thinking about a standard for archiving EPUBs 15:10:13 ... these ISO standards are important internationally, because there're trusted by organization all around the world 15:11:01 ... there are different kind of audits for publishing the spec 15:11:27 ... a trusted archive needs clear specs, open, transparent 15:12:03 ... we also have registries for knowing what content is stored where 15:12:36 ... this is the context in which we're thinking about an EPUB archival format 15:13:33 ... in ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34/JWG 7 we have a working group that is creating a subset of EPUB 3 15:13:51 ... with features that are suitable for long-term digital preservation 15:14:34 ... identifying metadata elements for catalogs 15:15:32 ... we are a rational document, we have a candidate statement for EPUB/A 15:16:13 ... the preparatory work of EPUB/A has been done on old version of EPUB 15:16:25 q? 15:16:30 q+ 15:16:33 ... so I think it's important to stay in touch do align with the latest version of EPUB 15:16:36 q+ 15:16:38 q+ 15:16:49 zakim, open the queue 15:16:50 ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is open 15:17:08 shiestyle: who is the target of the EPUB/A format? end-users? 15:17:12 q+ ivan 15:17:15 q+ liisamk_ 15:17:34 q+ 15:17:53