IRC log of rdf-star on 2023-08-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:04:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:04:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-irc
16:04:08 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:04:09 [niklasl]
present+
16:04:09 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), gkellogg
16:04:09 [draggett]
present+
16:04:09 [gkellogg]
present+
16:04:09 [AndyS]
present+
16:04:10 [ora]
present+
16:04:18 [pchampin]
present+
16:04:19 [Amin_Anjomshoaa]
present+
16:04:25 [niklasl]
present+
16:04:51 [gkellogg]
chair: ora
16:06:08 [olaf]
present+
16:06:30 [AZ]
Ora: let us put a link to the scribe list in the agenda
16:06:34 [pchampin]
previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/08/24-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:06:44 [pchampin]
next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/07-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:07:26 [AZ]
we did not declare the scribe
16:07:34 [pchampin]
sctibe: olaf
16:07:39 [ora]
scribe: olaf
16:08:09 [pchampin]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230831T120000/#agenda
16:08:09 [agendabot]
clear agenda
16:08:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Patel-Schneider, Peter)
16:08:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/24-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:08:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:08:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:08:13 [agendabot]
agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
16:08:16 [agendabot]
agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:08:28 [pchampin]
zakim, open item 2
16:08:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/24-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:08:41 [AZ]
minutes look ok
16:08:58 [ora]
proposal: approve last week's minutes
16:09:01 [ora]
0
16:09:01 [olaf]
ora: anyone any worries about last week's minutes?
16:09:04 [gkellogg]
+1
16:09:05 [pchampin]
+1
16:09:06 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:09:09 [AZ]
+1
16:09:10 [olaf]
+1
16:09:12 [niklasl]
+1
16:09:13 [AndyS]
+1
16:09:16 [Souri]
present+
16:09:19 [Amin_Anjomshoaa]
+1
16:09:28 [gtw]
+1
16:09:29 [Souri]
+1
16:09:45 [ora]
resolved: approve last week's minutes
16:10:13 [pchampin]
zakim, open item 3
16:10:13 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:53 [olaf]
AZ: I added a new message with a proposal for the 'compliance' question
16:11:25 [olaf]
... the proposal contains a "RDF 1.2 Basic" profile
16:11:34 [olaf]
... and "RDF 1.2 Full"
16:11:47 [olaf]
... where the former excludes quoted triples
16:12:08 [pchampin]
q+
16:12:25 [olaf]
... Then, for the various specs, there need to be statements saying that "this piece is not needed for Basic"
16:12:33 [AndyS]
q+
16:12:42 [gkellogg]
q+
16:12:46 [olaf]
... Question was how this would affect SPARQL.
16:12:48 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:13:11 [olaf]
pchampin: Regarding concrete syntaxes
16:13:44 [olaf]
... why do we need to say something there, rather than just saying which profile one is in.
16:14:05 [olaf]
AZ: not strictly needed but good for clarity
16:14:18 [olaf]
pchampin: Okay, it would helpful
16:14:47 [olaf]
ora: Are we going to have all possible combinations when SPARQL comes in the picture?
16:14:50 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:15:11 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:15:18 [olaf]
AndyS: I thought we are talking only about RDF Basic and the corresponding effect on the abstract syntax
16:15:19 [AndyS]
q+
16:15:39 [richard-lea]
richard-lea has joined #rdf-star
16:15:47 [richard-lea]
present+
16:15:53 [olaf]
gkellogg: If I have a Turtle parser, do I have to parameterize it to only emit RDF 1.2 Basic?
16:16:18 [olaf]
... How to communicate that a parser can have two modes?
16:16:27 [AZ]
q+
16:16:46 [olaf]
... What happens if one merges a "Basic" graph and a "Full" one?
16:17:13 [olaf]
... Can SPARQL "Basic" be used to query a "Full" graph?
16:17:24 [olaf]
ora: So, it is indeed more components.
16:17:26 [niklasl]
q+
16:17:46 [olaf]
gkellogg: Reasoners are another issue.
16:17:59 [olaf]
... It becomes a combinatorial issue.
16:18:18 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:18:24 [olaf]
... We need to treat lightly.
16:19:02 [olaf]
AndyS: For RDF, we could put a note in all the grammars. That should be practically possible.
16:19:36 [TallTed]
TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:19:55 [olaf]
... For SPARQL, the challenge is whether we actually need it.
16:20:22 [olaf]
... It gives all different combinations, and it affects the result formats as well.
16:20:27 [ora]
ack AZ
16:21:00 [olaf]
AZ: For the serialization formats, it may not be necessary. Just for clarification.
16:21:24 [olaf]
... I imagine these two profiles to be similar to the OWL profiles.
16:21:35 [olaf]
... For OWL, there are more profiles.
16:21:51 [olaf]
... and it doesn't make things more complicated.
16:22:08 [TallTed]
TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star 2023-08-31 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230831T120000/
16:22:20 [olaf]
... Regarding SPARQL, I agree we should keep it simple. Not a "SPARQL Basic"
16:22:27 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:22:32 [olaf]
... but we need some text in the SPARQL spec.
16:22:42 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:22:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:22:50 [TallTed]
present+
16:22:54 [olaf]
niklasl: I agree with gkellogg that there are a bunch of problems in this.
16:23:06 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:23:15 [olaf]
... A question is, how does "RDF 1.2 Basic" related to RDF 1.1?
16:23:34 [olaf]
gkellogg: text direction may be a difference from RDF 1.1
16:23:37 [ora]
q+
16:23:48 [TallTed]
present+ AZ
16:23:49 [gkellogg]
q+
16:23:57 [ora]
ack ora
16:24:24 [TallTed]
s/sctibe: olaf//
16:24:32 [olaf]
ora: We don't have any profiles right now. So, we need some baseline. It makes sense to include in such a baseline all those little fixes we are doing.
16:24:57 [AndyS]
Current RDF 1.1/1.2 changes: https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#changes-12
16:26:08 [olaf]
niklasl: Another thing would be that a parser could parse TriG-star into RDF 1.1
16:26:56 [olaf]
... It is necessary to track how "RDF 1.2 Full" is used in the wild.
16:27:45 [olaf]
... You might have a parser that converts TriG-star into reification statements.
16:27:54 [pchampin]
even in the CG report, unstar(G) does not have the same meaning as G
16:27:59 [olaf]
AndyS: Shouldn't that better be seen as a transformation.
16:27:59 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:28:00 [gkellogg]
w3c/rdf-concepts#34
16:28:01 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/34 -> Issue 34 Terminology for graph/dataset without quoted triples. (by gkellogg)
16:28:12 [olaf]
gkellogg: We have an issue on terminology here.
16:28:43 [AndyS]
q+
16:28:50 [olaf]
... We need terminology to be able to talk about triples that do not contain quoted triples, etc.
16:29:36 [niklasl]
q+
16:29:38 [olaf]
... Regarding transformations, there may be no practical way to "round trip"
16:29:50 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:29:52 [olaf]
AndyS: You can do the reverse process.
16:30:10 [olaf]
... How is Issue 34 different?
16:31:05 [olaf]
gkellogg: Such terminology can be useful; in particular, for talking about profiles.
16:31:05 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:31:16 [olaf]
niklasl: Yes that's important.
16:31:29 [olaf]
... I am concerned with backwards compatibility.
16:31:48 [olaf]
... Is the notion of profiles useful for us to distinguish?
16:32:07 [ora]
q+
16:32:12 [olaf]
... I have talked to people who are worried when I tell them that there will be profiles in RDF.
16:32:32 [olaf]
... I compare the unstar process to how RDF Lists have been handled.
16:32:49 [olaf]
... as syntactic sugar
16:33:35 [ora]
ack ora
16:33:37 [pchampin]
"lean" also exists, but it is something different
16:33:38 [olaf]
AndyS: There is a notion of well-formed for RDF lists, but I don't think it is officially defined.
16:33:53 [olaf]
niklasl: Yes, so it might be useful to have well-formed reification.
16:33:59 [pchampin]
https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/#dfn-lean
16:34:26 [olaf]
ora: How do the 1.2 profiles relate to 1.1?
16:34:30 [ora]
q?
16:34:50 [olaf]
... e.g., does supporting 1.2 Basic require supporting 1.1?
16:34:54 [pchampin]
gb, status
16:34:54 [gb]
pchampin, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer
16:34:54 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml https://github.com/w3c/sparql-concepts
16:34:55 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment https://github.com/w3c/sparql-federated-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-new https://github.com/w3c/sparql-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv
16:34:58 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json
16:35:16 [olaf]
... I realize that this issue is more complication than I initially thought.
16:35:41 [pchampin]
gb, use w3c/rdf-star-wg
16:35:42 [gb]
pchampin, OK.
16:36:23 [pchampin]
q+
16:36:28 [olaf]
... Should we define the compliance in terms of these difference "components" (parts of the overall set of specs) when they define different profiles?
16:36:33 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:36:45 [olaf]
... I start to think the answer to this question is yes.
16:36:49 [olaf]
pchampin: yes
16:38:05 [olaf]
... Regarding niklasl concerns, the boundary between the profiles should be such that the transition from 1.1 to 1.2 is as smooth as possible (for system that have not (yet) implemented support for quoted triples).
16:38:06 [niklasl]
q+
16:38:14 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:38:32 [olaf]
... To give some ground to what kind of compliance can be expected.
16:39:18 [olaf]
niklasl: It is also not fully determined what the RDF-star part exactly is (semantics!)
16:39:32 [olaf]
... generally, it should be made as less complex as possible
16:39:41 [olaf]
ora: other actions?
16:39:54 [olaf]
pchampin: The ones marked as complete can be closed.
16:40:14 [olaf]
... The PRs of rdf-tests appear on the dashboard now.
16:40:24 [olaf]
... No progress on Action 77
16:40:42 [olaf]
... Configutration of Github is still a mystery to me.
16:41:13 [olaf]
s/Github/Github bot
16:41:13 [pchampin]
gb, status
16:41:13 [gb]
pchampin, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new
16:41:13 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml https://github.com/w3c/sparql-concepts
16:41:14 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment https://github.com/w3c/sparql-federated-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-new https://github.com/w3c/sparql-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv
16:41:17 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json
16:41:21 [ora]
q?
16:41:59 [olaf]
pchampin: I don't know what changes the order of the repos in github bot
16:42:17 [olaf]
... The last action then is about the "last version" of each spec.
16:42:34 [olaf]
... What "last version" means is not fully clear.
16:42:51 [olaf]
... It may refer to the last published version.
16:43:03 [ora]
q+
16:43:10 [gkellogg]
q+
16:43:38 [olaf]
... There may be some "accidents" in some of the 1.0 docs.
16:43:48 [ora]
ack ora
16:43:49 [olaf]
... I have asked the W3C Web masters
16:44:05 [olaf]
... When they come back, we can decide to fix the ones that are broken.
16:44:27 [AndyS]
q+
16:44:40 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:45:15 [olaf]
gkellogg: W3C is inconsistent with the numbering and the popups that point to newer versions.
16:45:43 [olaf]
... we should do both
16:45:57 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:46:07 [olaf]
... it is a question for the documents team, but we should try to be consistent
16:46:56 [olaf]
AndyS: A comment from the community was that the 'latest' link should go to the latest published version, not to the latest working draft.
16:47:00 [TallTed]
"Latest version" is ambiguous. "Latest published version" and "Latest editor's draft" would be clearer.
16:47:18 [olaf]
ora: It seems there are two equally natural notions of what "latest" means.
16:47:39 [ora]
q?
16:47:46 [olaf]
gkellogg: What JSON-LD there is a latest published version, and latest recommendation
16:48:08 [niklasl]
+1 for latest published Rec. (highest number with Rec status)
16:48:13 [olaf]
... I don't think here is the place to discuss/decide how these things are supposed to work.
16:48:20 [olaf]
... We should call for clarification.
16:49:02 [olaf]
pchampin: Okay, I keep Action 84 open and will get back to the group once the Web masters have replied.
16:49:37 [pchampin]
Topic: what to discuss atTPAC
16:49:53 [olaf]
ora: AndyS wanted to discuss what to do at TPAC.
16:50:11 [gkellogg]
q+
16:50:14 [olaf]
AndyS: We have limited amount of time at TPAC and we should use that time well.
16:50:27 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:50:29 [olaf]
ora: We still have two weeks to decide.
16:50:52 [olaf]
gkellogg: There are three major topics that overlap with I18N
16:51:04 [olaf]
... we should have a joint meeting with them
16:51:31 [olaf]
... Having an agenda beforehand would be helpful
16:51:43 [olaf]
... in particular for people who plan to join remotely.
16:52:21 [olaf]
AndyS: In terms of items, the semantics needs to advance. I am hoping that the semantics task force comes out with a proposal.
16:52:53 [olaf]
... Additionally, I would like to schedule some time for the most controversial outstanding issues for SPARQL.
16:53:35 [olaf]
ora: If you have opinions of what should be put on the agenda, mention it on the mailing list.
16:53:50 [olaf]
... We will then put together a tentative agenda.
16:54:22 [pchampin]
the label "discuss-f2f" is already available on all our repos
16:54:33 [olaf]
gkellogg: What has been useful in the past is to have topics for which specific people can present.
16:54:51 [olaf]
AndyS: Do we have a time booked with the I18N folks?
16:55:05 [olaf]
ora: I will ping him (?) again.
16:55:25 [niklasl]
... Is https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/275 the one about sparql `exists`?
16:55:26 [olaf]
AndyS: What part of the day would work best for you?
16:55:38 [ora]
s/him/Addison (I18N)
16:55:39 [pchampin]
q+
16:55:41 [olaf]
gkellogg: 12pm until ...
16:55:45 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:57:00 [olaf]
pchampin: Regarding gkellogg's suggestion, should we add a new type of "f2f" tag/label that people can use to tag issues in the repos that they want to discuss during the F2F at TPAC?
16:57:18 [pchampin]
https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/72 ?
16:57:53 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:57:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:58:10 [AndyS]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Aug/0024.html
16:58:28 [olaf]
olaf has left #rdf-star
16:58:52 [AndyS]
https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/
17:09:21 [gkellogg]
gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:09:51 [TallTed]
Zakim, end meeting
17:09:51 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AZ, gtw, niklasl, draggett, gkellogg, AndyS, ora, pchampin, Amin_Anjomshoaa, olaf, Souri, richard-lea, TallTed
17:09:54 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:09:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
17:10:02 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
17:10:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:10:06 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, bye
17:10:06 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items