13:51:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
13:51:45 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/29-pwe-irc
13:51:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:51:47 <Zakim> Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
13:51:48 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
13:51:57 <wendyreid> date: 2023-08-29
13:57:42 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #pwe
13:58:06 <dbooth> rrsagent, pointer
13:58:06 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/08/29-pwe-irc#T13-58-06
13:59:57 <wendyreid> present+
14:02:03 <Jem> present+
14:02:06 <Ralph> present+
14:02:11 <Ralph> scribe+
14:02:34 <Ralph> present+ DBooth, Florian, Jen
14:02:36 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/342
14:02:40 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #pwe
14:02:44 <Ralph> agemda" https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2023Aug/0007.html
14:02:47 <JenStrickland> present+
14:02:50 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2023Aug/0007.html
14:02:56 <Ralph> s|agemda" https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2023Aug/0007.html||
14:03:07 <Ralph> topic: Revised Defninition of Diversity
14:03:15 <Ralph> s/fnin/fin/
14:03:20 <Ralph> Wendy: split into two parts
14:03:24 <wendyreid> Diversity is the consideration of a wide range of varying identities, lived experiences, and perspectives.
14:03:35 <Ralph> present+ CWilso, Sheila
14:03:39 <sheila> sheila has joined #pwe
14:03:57 <Ralph> ... Elika suggested a rewording
14:04:01 <wendyreid> Diversity, for a group of people, is variation across a wide range of identities, lived experiences, abilities, and perspectives.
14:04:37 <Ralph> ... David prposed dropping "for a group of people"
14:04:41 <Ralph> s/prpo/prop
14:05:21 <JenStrickland> +1 re group of people
14:05:29 <Ralph> ... David also suggested dropping "indigeneity"
14:06:03 <Ralph> ... not all nation-states recognize indigenous populations but the notion is important to those peoples
14:06:17 <wendyreid> q?
14:06:28 <Ralph> Jen: I think we consider diversity of application but in the CoC we're talking about people
14:06:54 <JenStrickland> q+
14:06:58 <sheila> q+
14:06:59 <wendyreid> ack JenStrickland
14:07:00 <Ralph> David: I embrace including the concept of indigeneity but I'd prefer to find a different word as that word is a new one
14:07:13 <Ralph> Jen: it's in Oxford; it's common
14:07:32 <Ralph> ... diversity is important; in history we've had in power cultures that dominate
14:07:45 <Ralph> ... a big part of diversity is to remember that we're part of one big diverse world
14:07:58 <Jem> I hear that Davd is agreeing with including the concept of Indigeneity but he is suggesting to use easy word to understand.
14:08:04 <Ralph> ... and indigeneity is a part of that
14:08:14 <florian> q+
14:08:21 <Ralph> David: Oxford may have been the one dictionary in which I found it
14:08:39 <wendyreid> ack sheila
14:08:45 <Ralph> ... I am suggesting we keep the concept but not use that word that is not in many dictionaries
14:09:01 <Ralph> Sheila: I understand wanting to make sure the words in the definition are familiar
14:09:23 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #pwe
14:09:23 <Ralph> ... but unfortunately in this case the concept is new and the term was coined recently
14:09:42 <Ralph> ... it hasn't been recognized as a component of diversity until recently
14:09:55 <Ralph> ... using the term is a way to make it better known
14:10:06 <wendyreid> ack florian
14:10:12 <Ralph> ... and since there is at least one dictionary that defines "indigeneity", I propose we keep it
14:10:31 <Ralph> present+ Annette
14:10:38 <Ralph> Florian: I'd like to see the text all together
14:10:44 <wendyreid> Proposed Definition: Diversity is variation across a wide range of identities, lived experiences, abilities, and perspectives.
14:10:54 <wendyreid> This can include, but is not limited to: socio-economic status, sexual orientation, religion, race, racial identity, physical appearance, neurotype, nationality, mental health, language, immigration status, gender, gender identity and gender expression, ethnicity, disability (both visible and invisible), caste, body, or age.
14:10:54 <Ralph> ... last time I asked about the several words we use to talk about race
14:11:05 <Ralph> ... whether "racial identity" or "ascribed race" would work
14:11:11 <Annette_g> Annette_g has joined #pwe
14:11:22 <Ralph> ... I don't think we finished that discussion of whether those words were too complex
14:11:54 <Ralph> ... one key benefit I see of having "racial identity" and "ascribed race" is that for people to whom racial identity matters, this means listening
14:11:59 <wendyreid> Second part (corrected): This range can include, but is not limited to: socio-economic status, sexual orientation, religion, race, racial identity, physical appearance, neurotype, nationality, mental health, language, indigeneity, immigration status, gender, gender identity and gender expression, ethnicity, disability (both visible and invisible), caste, body, or age.
14:12:09 <Ralph> ... for people for whom ascribed race impacts them this also matters
14:12:33 <Ralph> ... but it's unfortunate to refer to "race" where that is not a relevant criteria
14:13:14 <Ralph> Wendy: on indigeneity, I don't disagree that that is a newer term but there are some definitions in dictionary
14:13:29 <Ralph> ... and some universities have text on how to define it
14:13:36 <Ralph> s/dictionary/dictionaries
14:13:49 <Ralph> ... I think we could also add a definition of indigeneity
14:14:21 <Ralph> ... I have tried to think of other ways to word it but haven't come up with any
14:14:42 <Ralph> ... once we agree I'll create a new PR
14:14:46 <dbooth> I think a link to a def of indigeneity would help, if we keep that word.
14:15:17 <Ralph> Wendy: [reads from @@]
14:15:44 <Ralph> Florian: with Elika's suggestion?
14:15:46 <Ralph> Wendy: yes
14:15:53 <wendyreid> This can include, but is not limited to: socio-economic status, sexual orientation, religion, race, racial identity, physical appearance, neurotype, nationality, mental health, language, indigeneity, immigration status, gender, gender identity and gender expression, ethnicity, disability (both visible and invisible), caste, body, or age.
14:16:15 <sheila> q+ to ask a clarifying question about what Florian is suggesting (since I missed the last question)
14:16:20 <Ralph> Wendy: I don't have an answer to your comments on 'race'
14:16:21 <wendyreid> ack sheila
14:16:21 <Zakim> sheila, you wanted to ask a clarifying question about what Florian is suggesting (since I missed the last question)
14:16:34 <Jem> q+ to ask the current topic to Florian
14:16:36 <Ralph> ... there's something that makes me uncomfortable about 'ascribed race'
14:16:43 <Ralph> Sheila: what is the proposed language?
14:16:43 <Jem> ack me
14:16:43 <Zakim> Jem, you wanted to ask the current topic to Florian
14:16:57 <Ralph> Florian: there are two points that refer to race: "race" and "racial identity"
14:17:10 <Ralph> ... I'm suggesting replacing "race" with "ascribed race"
14:17:31 <Ralph> Sheila: that's a tough one; it goes into very dense and difficult conversations about race as sociology and biology
14:18:04 <Jem> +1 to Florian's suggestion adding the definiton of each, ascribed race and racial identity
14:18:26 <Ralph> ... my fear about the change is that adding modifiers implies that how you are perceived is not significant
14:18:32 <florian> q+
14:18:41 <Jem> q+
14:18:44 <wendyreid> ack florian
14:18:54 <Ralph> ... I have mixed feelings even about "racial identity" and would not want an additional modifier on racial diversity
14:19:00 <Ralph> Florian: yes, it's sensitive
14:19:01 <JenStrickland> +1
14:19:04 <JenStrickland> -1
14:19:07 <JenStrickland> q+
14:19:10 <dbooth> q+ to say I don't see any harm in adding "ascribed race" in addition to "race".  People might be confused by reading only "race".  I suggest adding "ascribed race" while keeping "race".
14:19:10 <Ralph> ... "race" isn't mentioned at all in the current CEPC
14:19:21 <Ralph> ... so the question is how to introduce it
14:19:31 <Annette_g> Q+
14:19:33 <Ralph> ... how race is perceived in different cultures varies a lot
14:19:58 <Ralph> ... in some contexts being wishy-washy about people's lived experiences is offensive
14:20:15 <Ralph> ... in other cultures it's offensive to refer to "race" at all
14:20:32 <Ralph> ... when the society in which people live imposes the notion it's important to recognize it
14:21:03 <Ralph> ... I prefer to avoid suggesting that even in contexts where the notion is not recognized it still exists
14:21:05 <sheila> q+
14:21:05 <wendyreid> ack Jem
14:21:27 <Ralph> ... and try not to invite problems
14:21:45 <Ralph> Jemma: we talk about "race" all the time
14:22:01 <Ralph> ... but "ascribed race" and "racial identity" gives me a more clear idea of what we're talking about
14:22:23 <Ralph> ... I don't see that it does harm to add those two
14:22:51 <florian> q?
14:22:53 <wendyreid> ack JenStrickland
14:22:53 <florian> q+
14:22:55 <Ralph> Sheila: I didn't mean to suggest that discussion of race is sensitive; I meant specifically the discussion of race as sociology or as biology is sensitive
14:23:04 <Ralph> ... I'm in favor of talking about race openly
14:23:13 <Ralph> Jen: I'm glad we're having this discussion
14:23:34 <Ralph> ... I wish my relatives were here visually
14:23:57 <Ralph> ... I can imagine what some of the experiences others here might have
14:24:31 <Ralph> ... we all have prejudice
14:25:08 <Ralph> present+ Rachel
14:25:15 <Ralph> [Rachel joins]
14:25:44 <Ralph> ... people make assumptions based on appearances
14:26:31 <Ralph> ... I want to make sure that others can come here and know that it's safe
14:26:40 <wendyreid> q+
14:26:52 <Ralph> ... be open and welcoming to people who don't look like us
14:28:39 <Ralph> ... in CoC we can acknowledge what some others feel
14:29:22 <Ralph> ... for those who live these things day in and day out this is critical
14:29:53 <Ralph> ... I need to know that my own voice will be heard
14:30:03 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
14:30:03 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to react to JenStrickland
14:30:40 <wendyreid> ack dbooth
14:30:40 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say I don't see any harm in adding "ascribed race" in addition to "race".  People might be confused by reading only "race".  I suggest adding "ascribed race"
14:30:43 <Zakim> ... while keeping "race".
14:30:51 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minute', Ralph.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:30:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/29-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
14:31:22 <Ralph> David: I suggest adding "ascribed race" and not eliminate the word "race"
14:31:31 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #pwe
14:31:31 <JenStrickland> q+
14:31:32 <Ralph> ... eliminating the word "race" would add confusion
14:31:37 <wendyreid> ack Anne
14:32:02 <Ralph> Annette: whatever we choose should not legitimate the concept of race as a biological ting
14:32:09 <Ralph> s/ ting/ thing/
14:32:21 <Ralph> ... I think adding "ascribed race" is an elegant way to do that
14:32:27 <wendyreid> ack sheila
14:33:04 <Ralph> Sheila: I'm fine as long as we keep the word "race"; I'd be pretty uncomfortable removing the single word
14:33:08 <cwilso> +1 I would be uncomfortable removing the word "race"
14:33:11 <Ralph> ... it does have meaning for a lot of people
14:33:37 <Jem> I think we do not discuss about removing the word, race...unless I am mistaken
14:33:48 <Ralph> ... there's a real risk that despite the good intentions it would be interpreted as us trying to minimize the significance of race
14:34:16 <Ralph> ... as long as "race" appears on its own, adding "racial identity" and "ascribed race" is OK
14:34:41 <Ralph> Jemma: we didn't talk about removing "race", just adding more
14:34:45 <wendyreid> ack florian
14:34:48 <JenStrickland> [10:15] Point of Discussion: This can include, but is not limited to: socio-economic status, sexual orientation, religion, race, racial identity, physical appearance, neurotype, nationality, mental health, language, indigeneity, immigration status, gender, gender identity and gender expression, ethnicity, disability (both visible and invisible), caste, body, or age.
14:34:56 <Ralph> Florian: either having "ascribed race, racial identity"
14:35:00 <Annette_g> Annette_g has joined #pwe
14:35:06 <dbooth> I prefer the 3-term variant
14:35:07 <Annette_g> Q+
14:35:09 <Ralph> ... or "ascribed race, racial identity, and race"
14:35:22 <Ralph> ... I prefer the two-term variant, Sheila prefers the three-term variant
14:35:45 <sheila> to clarify, I prefer keeping it as is (without "ascribed race") but am open to the three-term variant
14:35:46 <Ralph> ... with the three qualifiers we're placing emphasis on sociology
14:36:19 <Ralph> ... we've talked about "gender" vs "sex"; that is similar; sex is biological, gender is social
14:36:46 <Ralph> ... we don't have two terms for "race", though "ethnicity" is related
14:36:50 <sheila> q+
14:36:54 <Ralph> ... the adjectives help; they only work in the social sense
14:36:59 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:37:01 <Annette_g> There is no biological race
14:37:13 <Ralph> Wendy: I'm with Sheila on this
14:37:30 <Ralph> ... everyone has different feelings about their personal identity
14:37:40 <Ralph> ... not everything in this list will apply to everyone
14:37:58 <Ralph> ... there are things I might feel strongly about and others that I don't feel strongly about; that will be true of everyone
14:38:12 <Ralph> ... some will have lived experiences, some won't
14:38:16 <Jem> +1 to Florian's argument and thanks for the comparision between Race and Gender
14:38:42 <Ralph> ... the challenge is that we need to be inclusive of everyone's experience and accept that some will not like the content of this list
14:39:04 <Ralph> ... for example, some will object to us using "gender identity"
14:39:21 <Jem> I think we can go with three term option.. compromise.
14:39:24 <Ralph> ... race is a social construct; there is no biological side
14:39:34 <dbooth> Historically, the distinction between the terms "sex" vs "gender" arose because of the desire to distinguish between biology and social concept.
14:39:39 <Ralph> ... some people feel very strongly about their racial identity
14:39:54 <Ralph> ... and even those who don't may be in a world that does feel strongly
14:40:28 <naomi> naomi has joined #pwe
14:40:31 <Ralph> ... you can't hide your visual appearance; how you're treated may be different
14:41:05 <Ralph> ... we're going to keep talking in circles trying to find modifiers to soften something that can't be softened
14:41:15 <Ralph> ... I feel adding "ascribed" adds too many complications
14:41:19 <florian> q+
14:41:25 <dbooth> q+ to suggest a straw poll on various choices
14:41:26 <wendyreid> ack JenStrickland
14:41:26 <Jem> q+
14:42:01 <Ralph> ... recognizing that the list is not comfortable, and should not be comfortable, but addresses a number of perspectives
14:42:01 <Ralph> Jen: 100% agree
14:42:01 <Jem> q+ to ask why having three terms would be a problem
14:42:16 <Ralph> ... this isn't a situation where we should take a vote; it's a situation where those impacted should be considered
14:42:42 <Ralph> ... let's listen to those with experience
14:42:56 <wendyreid> qq+
14:43:03 <Ralph> ... I've watched what happened to my relatives as they were growing up
14:43:13 <Ralph> ... and make sure we include words that are uncomfortable
14:43:18 <Jem> three term option is a good compromise, not necessarily are related to "comfort" of the memeber here.
14:43:29 <Ralph> ... race and gender are social constructs; we need to acknowledge both
14:43:31 <dbooth> Option 1: race, racial identity
14:43:31 <dbooth> Option 2: race, racial identity, ascribed race
14:43:31 <dbooth> Option 3: racial identity, ascribed race
14:43:38 <Ralph> Wendy: straw poll ^^
14:43:41 <JenStrickland> 1
14:43:44 <sheila> 1
14:43:46 <Ralph> 1
14:43:50 <Jem> 2
14:43:51 <florian> 3
14:43:51 <Ralph> <Ralph> 1
14:43:52 <Annette_g> 3
14:43:53 <dbooth> 2
14:43:54 <cwilso> 1
14:43:57 <wendyreid> 1
14:43:57 <Rachel> 1
14:44:20 <Rachel> 2
14:44:22 <Ralph> Jemma: can we change the order?
14:44:24 <Ralph> Wendy: yes
14:44:30 <Ralph> s/order/order of the words/
14:44:48 <sheila> can I take a quick second to make a broader point about how we use language in these types of docs?
14:44:57 <wendyreid> ack sheila
14:45:30 <Ralph> Wendy: it seems there were more preferences for option 1
14:45:33 <Annette_g> I can live with 1
14:45:40 <Ralph> Jemma: can we choose between just two options?
14:45:59 <Ralph> ... what problems would option 2 cause?
14:46:14 <sheila> q+
14:46:20 <Ralph> ... we're talking about the direction of the document, trying to understand the situation as best we can
14:46:36 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:46:36 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to react to JenStrickland
14:46:40 <Ralph> ... if the issue is that "ascribed" is too complex, we can define it
14:46:53 <Ralph> Wendy: "ascribed" is  a term I've never seen in documents like this
14:46:59 <Ralph> ... we'd be setting a precedent
14:47:10 <Ralph> ... "ascribed" has many dictionary definitions
14:47:10 <dbooth> Would "perceived race" work better than "ascribed race"?
14:47:17 <Ralph> ... we'd have to explain
14:47:27 <Ralph> ... some might have different mental definitions
14:47:59 <Ralph> ... my concern is that "ascribed" makes this more complex, especially for those for whom English is not a primary language
14:48:01 <wendyreid> ack sheila
14:48:29 <Ralph> Sheila: Florian said that a lot of people use "race" overly biological; I understand that
14:48:40 <Ralph> ... this is related to our conversation about "indigeneity"
14:48:57 <Ralph> ... in these kinds of documents we should use the terms in the ways we want
14:49:26 <Ralph> ... "ascribed race" makes it sound as though we mean something different from "race", making it biological
14:49:29 <cwilso> +1
14:49:43 <Ralph> ... the risk is that adding "ascribed race" makes the other definition of race as not ascribed
14:49:57 <JenStrickland> +1 - yes, that's what I was thinking!
14:50:26 <Ralph> ... we should lead with which version of the terms we want people to be using
14:50:39 <Ralph> ... with language we should always try to mainstream the definition in which we believe
14:50:47 <Ralph> ... we don't define "race" as biological
14:51:07 <Ralph> ... if we use "ascribed race" we are implying that "race" alone is biological
14:51:17 <Ralph> ... I'm a big believer in 'claiming words'
14:51:26 <Ralph> ... we use 'race' to be sociological all the time
14:51:36 <Ralph> ... I feel pretty strongly about this
14:51:49 <Rachel> Ascribed race is the racial identity that is assigned to individuals, often based on physical characteristics or assumptions related to geographic or ethnic backgrounds, regardless of that individual's personal identification. It's not something one chooses, but rather, it's imposed by society. This concept highlights how societal perceptions and stereotypes can impact racial categorization. It differs from self-identified race, where individuals id[CUT]
14:51:59 <Ralph> Jemma: I understand the point
14:52:01 <Rachel> I did some digging...
14:52:13 <Ralph> ... looking at the sentence again now ...
14:52:25 <Rachel> For my own edification.
14:52:51 <wendyreid> ack anne
14:52:57 <Ralph> ... I understand that there's a deliberate message Sheila is proposing
14:53:27 <Ralph> Annette: if we list all three then "race" alone does appear to be biological; people would ask "what is race if it's not the other two"
14:53:45 <Ralph> ... I don't want to make the mistake of suggesting there might be a biological basis for 'race'
14:54:03 <Ralph> ... I don't see 'racial identity' as suggesting biological
14:54:39 <Ralph> ... there are people who embrace racial identity
14:55:05 <Ralph> ... our level of comfort with terminology should push us toward a more inclusive view
14:55:35 <Ralph> ... I can live with "race and racial identity"
14:55:44 <dbooth> Option 4: perceived race, racial identity
14:55:59 <Ralph> Wendy: I don't want to go to an option 4
14:56:26 <Ralph> ... the majority prefers "race, racial identity"
14:56:40 <dbooth> I can live with optoin 1
14:56:42 <Rachel> yes
14:56:44 <Ralph> ... can the others who preferred some other option live with option 1?
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14:57:06 <Ralph> Jemma: I'd like more time to think about it
14:57:31 <Ralph> Wendy: I'll create a PR with the change, adding a link for indigeneity
14:57:35 <Annette_g> I’m okay with option 1
14:57:37 <Ralph> ... that will give you time to think about this
14:57:47 <Ralph> ... with TPAC we won't be meeting in two weeks
14:57:51 <florian> q?
14:58:11 <wendyreid> ack florian
14:58:14 <Ralph> Jemma: I appreciate Annette's point about the two concepts
14:58:25 <Ralph> Florian: thank you, Sheila, for the discussion about how we use language
14:59:01 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure it helps me, however, in an English-speaking context that may work but in other cultures the word is only used by people who do mean biology
14:59:10 <Jem> ack me
14:59:10 <Zakim> Jem, you wanted to ask why having three terms would be a problem
14:59:33 <Ralph> ... so it's about discomfort of those who experience this when people only mean biology
14:59:50 <Ralph> ... please keep the wording around the list as we've reached iit now
14:59:54 <Ralph> s/ iit/ it
15:00:17 <Ralph> ... there is sufficient wording to make it clear that some of the terms may not apply to everyone
15:00:45 <Ralph> Wendy: I'll create the PR; see some of you at TPAC and we'll meet again in about a month
15:00:53 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:00:56 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:00:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, Jem, Ralph, DBooth, Florian, Jen, JenStrickland, CWilso, Sheila, Annette, Rachel
15:00:57 <Jem> Annette's concept on external aspect of "ascribed race" and external aspect of "racial identity" were helpful
15:00:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:01:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/29-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:01:07 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:01:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
15:01:07 <dbooth> I think we SHOULD consider "perceived race" as a term.
15:01:07 <dbooth> thanks all!
15:01:46 <Ralph> present+ Annette
15:02:01 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:02:04 <Jem> +1 to also "perceived race" to be comparable to "acribed race"
15:02:42 <Ralph> s/Ralph, you wanted to react to JenStrickland//
15:02:43 <Jem> s/external aspect of "racial identity" were helpful/internal aspect of "racial identity"/
15:03:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/29-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
15:05:46 <sheila> s/and the term was coined recently/and the term was mainstreamed recently
15:07:57 <Jem> s/acribed race/ascribed/
15:31:09 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:31:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/29-pwe-minutes.html wendyreid
15:43:09 <Ralph> i|date:|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/08/15-pwe-minutes previous 15-Aug
15:43:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/29-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
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