12:48:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-motion
12:49:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/28-wcag3-motion-irc
12:49:05 <Rain> zakim, start meeting
12:49:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:49:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Rain
12:49:30 <Rain> meeting: Harm from motion subgroup meeting 6
12:49:40 <Rain> chair: Rain
12:50:04 <Rain> agenda+ find a volunteer to scribe
12:50:27 <Rain> agenda+ Discuss feedback from AG presentation and determine what we would like to do with it
12:50:45 <Rain> agenda+ review of outcomes
12:50:54 <Rain> agenda+ Determine what we want the final output of our group to be so that we can work
12:51:07 <Rain> agenda+ Determine what we will present at the Aug. 29 meeting
12:51:12 <Rain> agenda+ Logistics
12:51:38 <Rain> agenda?
12:57:43 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #wcag3-motion
12:58:38 <tburtin> tburtin has joined #wcag3-motion
13:03:20 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #wcag3-motion
13:03:24 <Rain> zakim, take up item 1
13:03:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- find a volunteer to scribe -- taken up [from Rain]
13:03:27 <jeanne> scribe+ jeanne
13:03:33 <Rain> zakim take up item 2
13:03:39 <Rain> zakim, take up item 2
13:03:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Discuss feedback from AG presentation and determine what we would like to do with it -- taken up [from Rain]
13:03:48 <Rain> scribe+ Rain
13:04:10 <jeanne> present+
13:04:12 <jedi_lin> jedi_lin has joined #wcag3-motion
13:04:18 <jedi_lin> present+
13:04:18 <Rain> present+
13:04:19 <tburtin> present+
13:04:22 <Makoto> present+
13:04:29 <jeanne> zakim, close item 1
13:04:29 <Zakim> agendum 1, find a volunteer to scribe, closed
13:04:30 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:04:30 <Zakim> 2. Discuss feedback from AG presentation and determine what we would like to do with it [from Rain]
13:04:35 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 2
13:04:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Discuss feedback from AG presentation and determine what we would like to do with it -- taken up [from Rain]
13:05:07 <sheribyrne_> sheribyrne_ has joined #wcag3-motion
13:05:20 <AndySomers> AndySomers has joined #wcag3-motion
13:05:26 <AndySomers> present+
13:05:28 <sheribyrne_> present+
13:05:45 <jeanne> Feedback from AG -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jCOE4cO68V-QUiZEhJNkrQydNmW71ljaCGGu2Zmnlok/edit
13:06:41 <jeanne> Rain: We need to fit in micro-animations. That may or may not go into Outcomes.
13:07:09 <jeanne> ... Question about whether or not we are addressing functional needs related to limited vision and neurological aspects of having to scan/visual processing of having to scan
13:08:47 <jeanne> Jeanne: Can we capture the comment on "micro animation is related to the "size" of the on-screen motion" for a future definition of microanimation?
13:08:55 <jeanne> Rain: captured in the definitions section
13:09:28 <jeanne> Rain: AG agreed to the concept of splitting out haptics and audio into their own criteria
13:09:28 <AndySomers> =1
13:09:31 <AndySomers> +1
13:09:32 <Rain> q?
13:09:42 <tburtin> +1
13:09:58 <Rain> zakim, take item 3
13:09:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take item 3', Rain
13:10:01 <jeanne> zakim, take up  next
13:10:01 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- review of outcomes -- taken up [from Rain]
13:12:03 <jeanne> Rain: I did some async work refining and organizing the list of functional needs
13:13:42 <jeanne> ... Jedi noted that vestibular disorder is not necessarily neurological, so we should remove references to diagnosis and focus on the need, not the why of the need.  We can cover the why of the need in the Description.  We want to make it siimpler for people to get to the heart of the issue without a lot of words.
13:14:29 <jeanne> ... Looking at the the user stories
13:14:50 <jeanne> ... look at these asyncrously and make suggestions.
13:15:02 <jeanne> ... I started to refine the list of outcomes
13:15:18 <Rain> q?
13:17:06 <jeanne> Andy and Sheri:  Will have an update next week.
13:17:45 <jeanne> Makoto: I added outcomes for flashing content
13:18:08 <AndySomers> q+
13:18:17 <jeanne> ... I added phrases from WCAG2 flashing and included some info from WCAG2 Flashing techniques
13:18:40 <jeanne> ... I am wondering if the screen resolution we set 15 years ago are still apppropriate
13:18:43 <Rain> q+
13:18:59 <jeanne> ... modern users magnify their screens much more than 15 years ago
13:19:13 <Rain> ack next
13:19:57 <jeanne> AndySomers: I have been doing some research on this.  On screen resolution, when these studies were done in the 90s, most of the studies were done on 20" TV sets in Japan.
13:20:15 <jeanne> ... Today we have mobile devices that are orders of magnitude brighter.
13:20:29 <jeanne> ... resolution is much higher pixel density
13:21:43 <jeanne> ... the standard of the reference pixel is supposed to have an arc-minute of 1.78 of vusual angle.  Manufacturers use still use it.
13:22:29 <jeanne> ... people who are holding their phones closer to their eyes have a larger visual field.  When it is that big, a very low flicker can be seizure-inducing
13:23:03 <jeanne> ... when I ran through the numbers I think it should be about 150 picels
13:24:01 <jeanne> Rain: This is more granular than our group needs to explore.  I think the question is should we investigate more research
13:24:19 <jeanne> AndySomers: WCAG2 is out of date
13:24:21 <Rain> ?
13:24:29 <Rain> q?
13:24:36 <Rain> ack next
13:25:17 <jeanne> Rain: One thing I'm thinking about is that these questions are really important.
13:26:09 <tburtin> +q
13:26:27 <Rain> ack tburtin
13:26:34 <jeanne> ... Can we include "Users are safe from a seizures due to photosensitivity triggered by flashing content" under continuous motion?  Can we have fewer, stronger outcomes that are more broad, or do we need to keep them separate.
13:27:05 <jeanne> tburtin: I would like to include scrolling under continuous motion.
13:27:34 <jeanne> ... It could be impactful for people for sudden movement or unexpected movement.
13:27:58 <jeanne> q+ to say to keep them separate
13:28:37 <jeanne> Rain: I will add a note to include scrolling example as a user story
13:28:52 <Rain> q?
13:29:00 <Rain> ack jeanne
13:29:00 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say to keep them separate
13:29:01 <jeanne> ack je
13:29:46 <Rain> q+
13:30:39 <jeanne> jeanne: I think they should be separate for now. I think they have different tests and different solutions.
13:31:53 <tburtin> +q
13:32:18 <Rain> ack tburtin
13:32:29 <Rain> ack Rain
13:32:30 <jeanne> Rain: Flashing can be one-off or continuous.  I wonder if we have not done enough to capture the non-continuous motion aspect. I worry about the impact on user experience.
13:33:03 <AndySomers> q+
13:33:43 <Rain> ack next
13:34:08 <jeanne> tburtin: Seizures are extremely serious.  There is also harm from movement that can cause migraines and illness.  Seizures get people's attention, but the subset of difficulties beyond seizures is still serious.
13:34:46 <Rain> q?
13:34:58 <jeanne> AndySomers: It needs to be called out in the name.  Photoseizures have a narrow patterns.  Migraines may have different causality.
13:35:31 <jeanne> Rain: We want to continue the breakout and make sure they are inclusive of all the harms. '
13:35:48 <jeanne> ... we need to include continuous and non-continuous motion.
13:36:01 <AndySomers> Bright line on non-continuous flashing is 3 within one second.
13:36:35 <Rain> q+
13:36:42 <Rain> ack Rain
13:36:43 <Rain> q?
13:37:47 <jeanne> Sheri:  It would be better to define pseudo-motion so we can reference it everywhere we discuss motion
13:38:06 <jeanne> Rain: I have added it to the definitions section in the Scratchpad document.
13:39:11 <jeanne> Jedi:  I changed the name from audio motion to audio shift.
13:39:19 <jeanne> q+
13:39:19 <tburtin> +q
13:39:25 <Rain> ack jeanne
13:39:33 <AndySomers> Is audio moving?
13:39:40 <AndySomers> to a new SC?
13:39:50 <AndySomers> q+
13:40:00 <AndySomers> Yes there are some ovderlaps
13:40:15 <AndySomers> overlaps
13:43:47 <Rain> q?
13:43:57 <Rain> ack tburtin
13:44:28 <jeanne> tburtin: I want to include people who synethesia - people who hear colors.
13:44:43 <jeanne> rain: That should be included in both places for different reasons.
13:45:23 <jeanne> ... I am adding synesthesia to our user stories
13:45:31 <Rain> ack tburtin
13:45:33 <Rain> ack AndySomers
13:46:36 <jeanne> AndySomers: Synesthesia can go in different directions for different people.  I kthink audio should be a separate category under the larger category of "do no harm".  Audio would be completely separate from video
13:47:04 <jeanne> ... there is a lot of cross-over and should be under a larger categorization
13:47:14 <jeanne> Rain: We will include that in our recommendations
13:49:24 <jeanne> tburtin: I wrote a generic test and a draft outcome: Text is displayed in the appropriate orientation for reading in that language, and doesn’t require the user to tilt or turn their head to view the content.
13:49:49 <jeanne> ... I then wrote examples of this outcome done well.
13:50:28 <jeanne> ... and examples of fails.
13:50:43 <jedi_lin> q+
13:51:55 <jeanne> ... my main concern is people  who have to keep a stable neck (like a neck brace)  and when an author has turned the content orientation to conserve page space.
13:52:29 <Rain> ack jedi_lin
13:52:37 <jeanne> Rain: I don't think this has been captured in WCAG2, so this is fantastic material to include in our output.  It's a form of harm from motion that has not previously been considered.
13:52:44 <jeanne> q+ to say keep it in this guideline
13:53:48 <jeanne> Jedi: In Japanese and Chinese, we have vertical orientation in line.  It may cause a problem here.  I will add specific information for internationalization.
13:53:52 <Rain> ack jeanne
13:53:52 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say keep it in this guideline
13:55:07 <tburtin> +1
13:55:11 <AndySomers> +1
13:55:15 <Makoto> +1
13:55:16 <jeanne> Jeanne: I kthink this should be kept in the guidelines so it gets in a pull request at the end.
13:55:23 <Rain> zakim, take up item 4
13:55:23 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Determine what we want the final output of our group to be so that we can work -- taken up [from Rain]
13:55:26 <jeanne> Rain: I think we should do that for audio, as well.
13:55:49 <Rain> zakim, take up item 5
13:55:49 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Determine what we will present at the Aug. 29 meeting -- taken up [from Rain]
13:56:34 <jeanne> Rain:  I think we should present our Outcomes and we are aligning them with our user needs.
13:57:20 <Rain> q?
13:57:26 <Rain> zakim, take up item 6
13:57:26 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Logistics -- taken up [from Rain]
13:57:51 <AndySomers> +1
13:57:56 <jeanne> Rain: who is avilable next week
13:57:56 <jedi_lin> +1
13:57:59 <jeanne> +1
13:57:59 <Makoto> +1
13:58:22 <jeanne> Rain: we will go ahead and meet.  If I can't, I will ask someone to fill in for me.
13:58:31 <tburtin> Not sure
13:58:51 <sheribyrne_> is Sept 12 during TPAC?
13:58:53 <jeanne> Can we finish by 12 September?
13:58:56 <jeanne> q+
13:59:22 <AndySomers> I can
14:00:11 <jeanne> Jeanne: wants help with getting a PR together
14:00:22 <jeanne> Rain and Andy will help with the PR
14:00:25 <Rain> ack jeanne
14:01:10 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/28-wcag3-motion-minutes.html jeanne
14:01:36 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
14:01:46 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/28-wcag3-motion-minutes.html jeanne