13:47:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
13:47:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/15-pwe-irc
13:47:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:47:38 <Zakim> Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
13:47:47 <wendyreid> date: 2023-08-15
13:47:54 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid, tzviya
13:48:48 <wendyreid> agenda+ Meeting Facilitation Training
13:48:58 <wendyreid> agenda + Feedback from the AB on CoC
13:49:08 <wendyreid> agenda+ PRs on CoC 2023
13:54:20 <csarven> wendyreid tzviya , in case you're not aware, the calendar event https://www.w3.org/events/happenings/2023/meeting-facilitation-training.ics ( linked from https://www.w3.org/events/happenings/2023/meeting-facilitation-training/ ) may be using incorrect start/end-datetime.
13:55:11 <wendyreid> Thanks for this! I think it was just set that way due to the type of page it's hosted on, but thank you for calling it out.
13:57:41 <Ralph> regrets for the first half (likely) of today's PWE CG meeting
13:58:57 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #pwe
13:59:08 <dbooth> rrsagent, pointer
13:59:08 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/08/15-pwe-irc#T13-59-08
14:00:23 <cwilso> present+
14:00:45 <dbooth> present+
14:01:34 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #pwe
14:01:42 <fantasai> scribenick: fantasai
14:01:43 <JenStrickland_> JenStrickland_ has joined #pwe
14:01:44 <tzviya> present+
14:01:47 <JenStrickland_> present+
14:02:10 <wendyreid> zakim, take up agenda 1
14:02:10 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Meeting Facilitation Training -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:03:08 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/events/happenings/2023/meeting-facilitation-training/
14:03:30 <fantasai> wendyreid: 2 weeks ago the meeting facilitation announcement finally went out
14:03:38 <fantasai> ... thanks to Comm team
14:03:50 <fantasai> ... announced on LinkedIn, Twitter, mastodon, chairs list, AC Forum
14:03:55 <fantasai> ... I'll send another reminder
14:04:06 <fantasai> ... this is the first part, the second part -- there will be 3 sessions in September, hopefully one during TPAC
14:04:17 <fantasai> ... then there will be 2 other sessions later in September
14:04:28 <fantasai> ... at various times
14:04:34 <fantasai> s/times/times of day
14:04:38 <fantasai> ... and we can do more if requested
14:04:51 <fantasai> ... we got lovely feedback from one person who watched it
14:05:13 <dbooth> Glad to see this was recorded, so that I (and others) can watch it later!
14:05:17 <tzviya> q?
14:05:40 <fantasai> wendyreid: nice quick watch, half hour
14:05:51 <tzviya> ack fantasai
14:05:53 <wendyreid> scribe+
14:06:03 <wendyreid> fantasai: Was wondering if the announcement mentioned the structure
14:06:21 <wendyreid> ... might encourage more people
14:06:25 <wendyreid> tzviya: Yes it says that
14:06:28 <dbooth> Good idea!
14:06:50 <fantasai> wendyreid: tried to make that really clear, there's two levels of commitment, can just watch video, love it if you show up to session
14:06:55 <fantasai> ... but fairly short in total
14:07:01 <wendyreid> zakim, take up agenda 2
14:07:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Feedback from the AB on CoC -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:07:28 <fantasai> tzviya: AB had an F2F where Wendy and I presented the draft Coc
14:07:43 <fantasai> ... initially just a little feedback, but then a bunch of issues logged as follow up
14:07:51 <fantasai> ... Wendy and I did some research, so we'll go through issue by issue
14:07:56 <fantasai> ... note that we have ??? already
14:08:26 <wendyreid> zakim, take up agenda 3
14:08:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- PRs on CoC 2023 -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:08:28 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22CEPC+2023%22
14:08:29 <fantasai> ... some were easy fixes
14:08:46 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/319
14:08:48 <fantasai> Subtopic: 319
14:08:52 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/319
14:09:17 <fantasai> tzviya: chaals opened this issue, just found this to be a redundant phrase
14:09:25 <fantasai> ... I don't think it's a big deal to remove
14:09:40 <fantasai> tzviya: btw, chaals raised many of these issues as part of doing a Spanish translation
14:09:54 <dbooth> +1
14:10:01 <tzviya> 0
14:10:03 <fantasai> POLL: Accept PR 319
14:10:04 <cwilso> 0
14:10:06 <wendyreid> +1
14:10:08 <florian> florian has joined #pwe
14:10:16 <JenStrickland_> 0
14:10:20 <fantasai> 0
14:11:28 <wendyreid> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/PWETF/319/eee2d8d...chaals:c7a0a1a.html
14:11:43 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/319/files
14:12:31 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept PR 319
14:12:34 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/328
14:12:50 <fantasai> wendyreid: 2 issues raised that were grammatical fixes
14:12:57 <fantasai> ... we'd lost a word in the middle of editorial work
14:13:02 <fantasai> ... and other fix
14:13:16 <fantasai> ... significant difference was the update text and its placement
14:13:26 <fantasai> ... I moved out the major part of the update text, the part that descries our schedule
14:13:35 <fantasai> ... moved it intou our contribution document, not in the CoC itself
14:13:39 <fantasai> ... so that we can more easily change it
14:13:47 <fantasai> ... and moved other bits into "status of the document" section
14:14:00 <florian> q+
14:14:00 <dbooth> q+
14:14:05 <tzviya> ack florian
14:14:05 <wendyreid> ack florian
14:14:10 <fantasai> florian: expressing support
14:14:16 <fantasai> ... there are multiple unrelated changes in this, but I support all of them
14:14:27 <fantasai> ... wrt moving things out of update section, i would have moved more out but this seems reasonable too
14:14:28 <tzviya> ack dbooth
14:14:44 <fantasai> dbooth: lgtm too
14:14:50 <fantasai> ... didn't understand plural vs singular
14:15:18 <fantasai> wendyreid: that part didn't change
14:16:01 <fantasai> [discussion of mixed up fixes]
14:16:10 <fantasai> [and merge conflicts]
14:16:45 <fantasai> fantasai: would be nice if commit messages were not just "editorial fix"
14:16:55 <dbooth> dbooth: Suggest merging this PR, and if the singular/plural issue is not fixed in another PR, then we can fix it later.
14:17:21 <fantasai> fantasai: lgtm
14:17:32 <fantasai> s/lgtm/lgtm, other than commit messages :)/
14:17:40 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Merge PR 328
14:17:49 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/329
14:18:11 <fantasai> wendyreid: suggested by mnot, made wording a lot easier to read
14:18:17 <fantasai> ... and also better structure
14:18:35 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/329/files
14:19:02 <dbooth> q+ to say I think this is a big improvement.  The last bullet is still problematic, but too complex to fix right now.  We should come back to it on another occasion.
14:19:04 <florian> q+
14:19:08 <tzviya> ack dbooth
14:19:08 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say I think this is a big improvement.  The last bullet is still problematic, but too complex to fix right now.  We should come back to it on another
14:19:12 <Zakim> ... occasion.
14:19:14 <fantasai> dbooth: I like this a lot, it's a big improvement
14:19:22 <fantasai> ... that last bullet about reverse-isms is still problematic
14:19:31 <fantasai> ... but I don't think we have time to address now, so let's accept this PR and come back to that
14:19:32 <tzviya> ack florian
14:19:40 <fantasai> florian: That last sentence is especially delicate and hard to phrase
14:19:50 <fantasai> ... I don't think the new phrasing doens't introduce any new problem that wasn't there earlier
14:19:53 <fantasai> ... so agree we should merge this
14:20:00 <fantasai> <fantasai> +1 to dbooth and florian
14:20:03 <fantasai> RESOLVED: merge 329
14:20:29 <florian> s/ new phrasing doens't introduce/ new phrasing introduces
14:20:29 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/330
14:20:32 <dbooth> s/don't//
14:20:36 <fantasai> wendyreid: This one there was some discussion in the issue itself
14:20:45 <fantasai> ... issues raised by chaals around this section on physical contact
14:21:14 <fantasai> tzviya: chaals made a good point that we had previously described uncomfortableness around physical contact around culture, but might not be just cultural could be personal dislike
14:21:33 <fantasai> ... restructured a few other parts of the sentence
14:22:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/15-pwe-minutes.html fantasai
14:22:57 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: So what do we say happens in these cases?
14:22:58 <dbooth> q+ i generally think this shift from culture to individual is good.   It embraces the whole concept of  diversity.
14:23:04 <fantasai> tzviya: this is an awareness thing, not a slap on the wrist
14:23:06 <tzviya> ack dbooth
14:23:12 <fantasai> dbooth: I think it's a good shift, the proposed change
14:23:19 <florian> s/I think the new phrasing introduces/I don't think the new phrasing introduces
14:23:28 <fantasai> ... I like that it is embracing diversity, saying that lots of people differ, and it's not just culture
14:23:30 <cwilso> +1
14:23:37 <fantasai> tzviya: merge this?
14:23:46 <fantasai> wendyreid: one comment about preceived, should we proceed with that?
14:24:02 <fantasai> dbooth: I find it redundant
14:24:07 <fantasai> tzviya: I think it's OK
14:24:30 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: Agreed. Sometimes can be perceived as more than just a personal space issue, it's both
14:24:40 <dbooth> Fine with me either way.
14:24:40 <fantasai> tzviya: ok, I think we're going to merge it
14:24:48 <fantasai> wendyreid: I need to fix a tiny grammar thing, but might just do that
14:25:25 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/338
14:25:36 <fantasai> wendyreid: in response to issue 327
14:25:41 <fantasai> ... raised issue of race in list of dimensions
14:25:59 <fantasai> ... we reached out to some people to get feedback from people who have lived experience of being person of color in Europe
14:26:20 <fantasai> ... There was feeling that we couldn't remove the word race, but inclusion of "racial identity" would be ok to add
14:26:25 <dbooth> Addition of "racial identity" seems to me like a good idea.
14:26:31 <fantasai> ... but to get rid of it entirely would be inappropriate
14:26:38 <dbooth> + 1 to merge
14:27:28 <cwilso> q+
14:27:41 <dbooth> fantasai: This wasn't fun at all.
14:27:41 <tzviya> ack cwilso
14:27:47 <fantasai> s/fantasai/jennifer/
14:27:58 <fantasai> cwilso: Do you know if this addresses chaals's issue? or Florian's?
14:28:21 <fantasai> tzviya: chaals wrote "let me think about it"
14:28:30 <tzviya> ack fantasai
14:28:31 <fantasai> ... we can ask Florian right now
14:28:53 <cwilso> s/fantasai: This wasn't fun at all./JenStrickland: This wasn't fun at all.
14:29:12 <dbooth> fantasai: This doesn't seem to address the issue raised in the AB.
14:29:29 <wendyreid> fantasai: It doesn't seem to me that this addresses the issue raised during the AB that the definition assumes that race is a valid way to organize people, look at their participation and review if we're sufficiently diverse.
14:29:41 <wendyreid> ... all of which supposes that race is an appropriate and valid way of categorizing people
14:29:46 <dbooth> ... Are we sufficiently diverse racially?  Encourage people to participate?  Which assumes that race is a valid way to categorize people.
14:29:50 <wendyreid> ... it doesn't address that aspect of the issue
14:30:10 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: great point, but maybe add something that defines race as a social construct that's a lot of [bs]
14:30:12 <florian> q+
14:30:20 <fantasai> ... but that was a good point
14:30:24 <wendyreid> ack florian
14:30:31 <tzviya> q+ to talk about social constructs
14:30:37 <tzviya> ack me
14:30:37 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about social constructs
14:30:55 <dbooth> q+ to ask: Is this proposed PR an improvement, even if it doesn't fully address the issue?  I think it is.  +1 to merge.
14:31:01 <fantasai> tzviya: it's an important point. Wendy and I reached out to people of color in Europe who acknowledge that "race" is a challenging term in Europe
14:31:04 <fantasai> ... but it can't be ignored
14:31:14 <fantasai> ... just like how we talk about gender as a social construct
14:31:22 <fantasai> ... we do have a problem in W3C that we don't have enough racial diversity
14:31:26 <fantasai> ... we can't ignore that it exists
14:31:43 <wendyreid> q+
14:31:51 <fantasai> ... do we need to add asterisks, saying "race is a construct", "gender is a construct"?
14:31:52 <florian> q?
14:31:58 <fantasai> ... people with lived experience asked us to keep it
14:32:04 <fantasai> florian: I agree with what fantasai said.
14:32:14 <fantasai> ... that said I don't think the PR is a problem, should be merged
14:32:24 <fantasai> ... whether it solves the issue is a separate problem, and in that respect I think it falls a bit short
14:32:45 <fantasai> florian: I wouldn't go so far as to say race is an invalid construct, but that's not quite right
14:32:51 <fantasai> ... there are constructs where it's valid and others where it's not
14:32:57 <fantasai> ... it's very difficult in an international context
14:32:59 <JenStrickland_> q+
14:33:17 <dbooth> +1 to  Florian's comments
14:33:18 <fantasai> ... We can't erase discussion of race, and we have many places in the document where it is apropriately referenced
14:33:33 <fantasai> ... but for the reasons mentioned, I think it's problematic here
14:33:45 <fantasai> ... I wonder if "racial identity + ascribed race" would solve the problem
14:33:53 <tzviya> q+ to mention lists
14:33:55 <fantasai> ... so your identity and also how you are assigend
14:34:11 <tzviya> ack dbooth
14:34:11 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to ask: Is this proposed PR an improvement, even if it doesn't fully address the issue?  I think it is.  +1 to merge.
14:34:17 <fantasai> ... We need to find the thin line between the two, where we neither erase the concept for those to whom it matters, neither force it upon others
14:34:22 <fantasai> dbooth: I agree with those concerns
14:34:30 <fantasai> ... and I agree that the PR is an improvement from what's in the document
14:34:35 <fantasai> ... so go ahead and merge
14:34:42 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
14:34:49 <fantasai> ... but we should think about and maybe come up with better wording in the future
14:34:59 <fantasai> wendyreid: One of the challenges we're having here applies to gender, nationality, etc.
14:35:07 <fantasai> ... all of these things are constructs created by the social conventions of our society
14:35:14 <fantasai> ... different societies have different conventions
14:35:26 <fantasai> ... we have to thread the needle between what's appropriate in each context and what is protective
14:35:44 <fantasai> ... Question of are we going to start making lists, that's a slippery slope argument
14:35:49 <fantasai> ... could say the same for gender etc.
14:36:08 <fantasai> ... There might be a context where you need to ensure the people ensure a diversity of racial identity
14:36:16 <fantasai> ... but that's contextual, not every situation
14:36:24 <fantasai> ... but agree we should merge now and continue to have this conversation
14:36:33 <tzviya> ack JenStrickland_
14:36:34 <fantasai> ... many things to improve about the document, but let's put a line down and move forward
14:37:00 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: I think this conversation is very interesting, and I think that it's complicated because we have uncertain amount of dimension representation in this group
14:37:12 <fantasai> ... when we're using these terms, they are socially accepted terms that are currently being used
14:37:38 <fantasai> ... we could have a sentence that says, we acknolwedge that these terms are what society uses while they may also be somewhat problematic, we are not the ones who police/oversee the use of these terms
14:37:43 <fantasai> ... that's a larger topic than us
14:37:51 <fantasai> ... I love the addition of racial identity
14:38:01 <fantasai> ... [explains personal experience]
14:38:32 <fantasai> ... but maybe we need a disclaimer
14:38:34 <tzviya> ack me
14:38:34 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention lists
14:38:56 <fantasai> tzviya: One of the people we spoke to, btw, said they dislike lists like this in general
14:39:16 <fantasai> ... because no matter what, you're going to offend someone by inclusion or exclusion
14:39:29 <fantasai> ... I think it's fine to merge, but we might consider leaving off the lists
14:39:35 <fantasai> ... these are examples, not definitions anyway
14:39:46 <florian> q+
14:39:47 <dbooth> s/but we might/but in the future we might/
14:39:50 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Merge PR 338
14:39:52 <tzviya> ack florian
14:39:53 <wendyreid> ack florian
14:39:58 <fantasai> florian: I support the merging and thinking about the question further
14:40:20 <fantasai> ... I do want to mention as fantasai mentioned during the AB meeting, that the addition of "race" is a change from the base revision
14:40:33 <fantasai> ... so this is something we need to consider for this revision,
14:40:36 <fantasai> ... let me explain
14:40:46 <fantasai> ... current published CEPC has a much shorter list in this spot, and this list doens't include "race"
14:40:56 <fantasai> ... the concerns raised by adding 'race' are new compared to existing def
14:41:02 <fantasai> ... so while this PR is an improvement over the editor's draft
14:41:19 <fantasai> ... but if it doesn't resolve chaals and my issue, it doesn't resolve that issue (even if it does get closer)
14:41:24 <fantasai> tzviya: what are you suggesting?
14:41:36 <fantasai> florian: I think we should merge, it's an incremental improvement
14:41:42 <fantasai> ... but I don't think it resolves the whole issue
14:41:59 <fantasai> tzviya: I don't think we can do anything other than remove the list. We can't have such a long list and not include race or racial identity
14:42:11 <fantasai> florian: I'll try to think
14:42:12 <JenStrickland_> Diversity for the purposes of diversity and inclusion, is any dimension that can be used to differentiate groups and people from one another. With a focus on age, gender, ethnicity, religion, disability, sexual orientation, education, and national origin. would become Diversity for the purposes of diversity and inclusion, is any dimension that can be used to differentiate groups and people from one another.
14:42:18 <fantasai> ... I can think of some rephrasings that might work
14:42:30 <fantasai> ... I think fantasai explained better why this bothers me
14:43:20 <fantasai> s/wendyreid: in response to issue 327/Subtopic: PR 338/
14:43:35 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/327
14:45:17 <dbooth> q+ to suggest that we have general agreement both: 1. this PR is an improvement that should be merged; but 2. It is imperfect and would be good to further improve later if we can figure out how.
14:45:42 <tzviya> Diversity for the purposes of diversity and inclusion, is any dimension that can be used to differentiate groups and people from one another.
14:46:04 <fantasai> tzviya: What if we remove the whole list?
14:46:25 <dbooth> q-
14:46:30 <wendyreid> q+
14:46:34 <dbooth> q+
14:46:36 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
14:46:44 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: we have lists elsewhere in the document, but this is one opportunity to ...
14:46:52 <fantasai> wendyreid: I don't want to do this, mostly because we use lists other places in the document
14:47:00 <fantasai> ... I'd rather unify the lists and make them consistent
14:47:13 <fantasai> ... This is the first instance where we have a list and diversity
14:47:22 <fantasai> ... I want to make sure we're consistent when we describe these things
14:47:32 <fantasai> ... I'm also worried about not being explicit and people taking advantage of that
14:47:38 <fantasai> ... I understand where we're coming from but...
14:47:51 <fantasai> ... these are socialogical shorthands for behavior.
14:48:04 <fantasai> ... race is an uncomfortable construct, developed to organize people in the worst way possible
14:48:16 <fantasai> ... but to pretend that people don't treat each other differently is also problematic
14:48:23 <tzviya> q+
14:48:24 <cwilso> +1 wendy
14:48:27 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think anyone is arguing that
14:48:27 <JenStrickland_> q+
14:48:30 <tzviya> ack dbooth
14:48:45 <fantasai> dbooth: Firstly, I think Florian's comments were useful and insightful
14:49:05 <fantasai> ... from a practical perspective, it sounds like we mostly agree that this PR is an improvement over current state of ED
14:49:14 <fantasai> ... and that further improvement seems necessary
14:49:23 <tzviya> ack JenStrickland_
14:49:24 <fantasai> ... so I suggest we merge this PR and continue looking for improvements
14:49:42 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: I think I agree with dbooth. For practical purposes let's merge it
14:49:47 <fantasai> ... but I also agree with removing it is a good first step
14:49:54 <fantasai> ... I don't think removing is pretending it doesn't happen
14:50:07 <fantasai> ... I still think that sentence acknowledges that we do categorize people under a variety of dimensions
14:50:16 <fantasai> ... I just don't think we need to list them at this point
14:50:19 <fantasai> ... It's too complicated.
14:50:45 <fantasai> ... I still battle with idea that we're standards organization, but do we also want to decide the ways people are categorized and diminished?
14:50:55 <fantasai> ... having these lists is a pandora's box
14:51:02 <fantasai> ... everyone knows that we're a worldwide organization
14:51:08 <fantasai> ... it varies so much depending on location
14:51:09 <florian> q?
14:51:11 <florian> q+
14:51:18 <fantasai> ... we don't want to be a a North American - centric
14:51:19 <tzviya> ack me
14:51:32 <fantasai> tzviya: I'm on the queue to remind people that this is part of a glossary, not part of the main text
14:51:39 <fantasai> ... [quotes text]
14:51:44 <fantasai> ... This is a terrible definition
14:51:56 <fantasai> ... I don't remember how we go this definition, but late to change it now if we want to get things done today
14:52:13 <fantasai> ... What we want to talk about is bringing together people from different dimensions
14:52:39 <fantasai> ... Main reason for glossary is for people who don't speak English as a first language
14:52:46 <fantasai> ... if you are English you won't look at glossary
14:52:54 <dbooth> I understand the concern about examples being misconstrued as complete definitions, but I think examples are very helpful for people to understand what we are trying to say.
14:52:55 <tzviya> ack fl
14:53:19 <fantasai> florian: I'm fine with merging as-is. As for removing the list, it does resolve that issue, but may introduce others
14:53:37 <fantasai> ... if we keep the list, and we have racial identity, and we have "race and", I didn't understand why it wouldn't work
14:53:50 <fantasai> ... to have "perceived race and racial identity"
14:53:56 <fantasai> ... why does such an adjective not work here.
14:53:56 <JenStrickland_> +1 to ascribed
14:53:58 <tzviya> q+ to suggest a complete change
14:54:01 <fantasai> wendyreid: I just think it overcomplicates it
14:54:05 <fantasai> florian: It's complicated in the first place.
14:54:13 <JenStrickland_> q+
14:54:13 <fantasai> ... complication is unavoidable. If it's bad that's another thing
14:54:15 <tzviya> ack fantasai
14:54:15 <Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to dispute use of glossary
14:54:32 <dbooth> "ascribed" is overly erudite.   "perceived" is okay with me.
14:55:30 <tzviya> Proposal: Change definition to "including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds"
14:55:33 <dbooth> fantasai: Different people use different definitions.  Def in the glossary is for use in this document.
14:55:38 <tzviya> ack me
14:55:38 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest a complete change
14:55:46 <fantasai> fantasai: Terms referenced in the main text, the glossary is how it will be interpreted not just for non-English speakers
14:56:15 <fantasai> wendyreid: I don't know if that's a workable defintion, tzviya
14:56:18 <dbooth> q+
14:56:33 <fantasai> wendyreid: We don't have time today. We can look one up
14:56:35 <fantasai> ... worried about timing
14:56:40 <tzviya> ack JenStrickland_
14:56:42 <fantasai> ... but we can resolve to do for next version of CEPC
14:56:59 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: Still have problem with the list usage here
14:57:07 <dbooth> q-
14:57:17 <fantasai> ... I think if we make one list somewhere of a whole lot of possible dimensions... but we focus on each of these
14:57:30 <fantasai> ... diversity is about inclusion of a broadest range of perspectives and lived experiences
14:57:39 <fantasai> ... disability is a social background, but it's  perspective
14:57:43 <fantasai> ... we want [lists axes]
14:57:51 <fantasai> ... because it sucks to have someon tell you what you are
14:57:55 <tzviya> ack fantasai
14:57:55 <fantasai> anyway time
14:58:18 <dbooth> q+ to say if we are going to consider other defiintions, we need the proposed in writing.
14:58:37 <dbooth> s/the proposed/them proposed/
14:59:18 <tzviya> ack dbooth
14:59:18 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say if we are going to consider other defiintions, we need the proposed in writing.
14:59:18 <florian> q?
14:59:22 <dbooth> fantasai: Suggest that jenn propose a new def of diversity
14:59:28 <fantasai> fantasai: rpopose to merge the PR, leave open issue
14:59:34 <fantasai> dbooth: Proposals should be in writing
14:59:40 <florian> q+
14:59:49 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: I would suggest a PR
14:59:59 <fantasai> ... it's written down and anyone can look at it before and during meeting
15:00:01 <fantasai> tzviya: or an issue
15:00:03 <tzviya> ack florian
15:00:08 <fantasai> wendyreid: let's start an issue for now
15:00:29 <fantasai> florian: Be mindful of where the definition is invoked from. Currently diversity is in a sentence that says diversity is something we promote.
15:00:35 <fantasai> ... which is a good thing, but impacts the definition
15:01:10 <fantasai> wendyreid: Let's open an issue for this
15:01:13 <fantasai> ... we'll have discussion in the issue
15:01:18 <fantasai> ... PR has been merged
15:01:25 <fantasai> ... can we draw the line as this is CEPC 2023?
15:01:33 <fantasai> fantasai: no, I don't think we can
15:01:57 <fantasai> JenStrickland_: does this mean we miss TPAC?
15:02:06 <fantasai> wendyreid: won't be able to complete AC review by then
15:02:12 <fantasai> wendyreid: Over time, meeting closed.
15:02:20 <fantasai> topic: end
15:02:23 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:02:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been cwilso, dbooth, tzviya, JenStrickland_
15:02:24 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
15:02:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:02:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/15-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:02:33 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:02:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
15:14:41 <dbooth> present+ Fantasai, Florian
15:14:52 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/15-pwe-minutes.html dbooth
16:03:31 <naomi> naomi has joined #pwe