16:03:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:03:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/10-rdf-star-irc
16:03:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:03:06 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), gkellogg
16:03:06 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:03:16 <doerthe> present+
16:03:16 <gkellogg> meeting: RDF-Star WG
16:03:25 <gkellogg> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230810T120000/
16:03:25 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:03:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe)
16:03:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:03:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Brainstorming: “What still needs to be done” (Ora)
16:03:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:03:29 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:03:32 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:03:34 <gkellogg> chair: ora
16:03:40 <gkellogg> present+
16:03:46 <ora> present+
16:03:50 <rubensworks> present+
16:03:51 <gtw> present+
16:03:54 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:03:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:56 <Tpt> present+
16:04:07 <doerthe> present+
16:04:22 <AndyS> present+
16:04:36 <pfps> present+
16:04:52 <doerthe> how do I start scribing? :)
16:04:53 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:04:57 <richard-lea> richard-lea has joined #rdf-star
16:04:59 <gkellogg> scribe+ doerthe
16:05:02 <Souri> present+
16:05:07 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:05:07 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:09 <richard-lea> present+
16:05:17 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
16:05:26 <olaf> present+
16:05:36 <pfps> minutes look good
16:05:54 <niklasl> present+
16:05:57 <gkellogg> q+
16:06:03 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:06:41 <doerthe> gkellogg: outstanding item should be discussed, apart from that fine
16:06:56 <ora> proposal: Accept last week's minutes
16:07:00 <gkellogg> +2
16:07:02 <doerthe> ora: we add that if there is time
16:07:05 <rubensworks> +1
16:07:08 <pfps> +1
16:07:08 <niklasl> +1
16:07:09 <doerthe> <doerthe> +1
16:07:11 <ora> 0
16:07:13 <AndyS> +1
16:07:19 <olaf> 0
16:07:24 <gkellogg> s/+2/+1/
16:07:27 <Souri> +1
16:08:16 <ora> resolved: Accept last week's minutes
16:08:17 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:08:21 <enrico> present+
16:08:21 <gkellogg> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:08:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/10-rdf-star-minutes.html gkellogg
16:08:43 <gkellogg> rrsagent, make logs public
16:08:46 <dsr_> dsr_ has joined #rdf-star
16:09:01 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:09:01 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Brainstorming: “What still needs to be done” (Ora) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:09:58 <gkellogg> s/how do I start scribing? :)//
16:10:03 <doerthe> ora: I would like to make a list what needs to be done, just to keep the overview and organise the work
16:10:32 <rubensworks> q+
16:10:43 <ora> ack rubensworks
16:11:01 <rubensworks> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/17
16:11:04 <rubensworks> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/53
16:11:40 <doerthe> rubenworks: incorporation of the RDF-star community report to the sparql-update and sparql-query (https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/17 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/53)
16:11:42 <gkellogg> q+
16:11:50 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:11:57 <pfps> q+
16:12:08 <doerthe> gkellogg: the dashboard also contains open issues
16:12:12 <pfps> q-
16:12:24 <niklasl> q+
16:12:43 <doerthe> gkellogg: transparency vs. opacity is open, also concrete/abstract syntax
16:12:58 <ora> ack niklasl
16:13:43 <ora> q+
16:13:47 <doerthe> niklas1: I am having a hard time teaching RDF-star for example relationships to named graphs
16:14:05 <doerthe> niklas1: maybe we should add at least a note to clarify
16:14:40 <doerthe> niklas1: transparency is a big part of the confusion
16:14:51 <ora> ack ora
16:14:58 <AndyS> q+
16:15:03 <doerthe> ora: that would indeed be good to clarify
16:15:31 <ora> ack AndyS
16:15:36 <doerthe> ora: how do we maintain the list we create here? only git? something more?
16:16:41 <doerthe> AndyS: one problem for SPARQL is that changes might arise from changes to the semantics (e.g.; simple entailment), That should be resolved.
16:17:26 <ora> q+
16:17:38 <ora> ack ora
16:17:50 <doerthe> AndyS: we need more than just a list of issues, we also need tracking. Maybe the github project part is a good solution here, but this would need supervision, maybe by the chairs?
16:18:29 <doerthe> ora: Adrian and I are happy to do the gate keeping here and that would be a good idea to have
16:18:57 <doerthe> ora: this will be picked up in the chairs meeting
16:20:38 <doerthe> enrico: The use cases are related to the semantics discussion, the absence of use cases blocks the process here
16:20:52 <niklasl> +1 for concrete use cases informing the choice of semantics
16:21:40 <doerthe> ora: welcome to Dave Reggett
16:22:38 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:22:38 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:23:42 <gkellogg> zakim, close item 4
16:23:42 <Zakim> agendum 4, Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3, closed
16:23:44 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:23:44 <Zakim> 5. Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 [from agendabot]
16:23:46 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:23:46 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:23:47 <ora> s/Reggett/Raggett
16:23:56 <doerthe> ora: my action is open, as pchampin is absent, we cannot ask him, so issues remain open
16:24:15 <gkellogg> q+
16:25:24 <doerthe> ora: proposal to merge editorial things
16:25:46 <gkellogg> gkellogg: hold off on w3c/rdf-concepts#57 until next week.
16:25:47 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/57 -> Pull Request 57 Adds a definition for "IRI reference". (by gkellogg) [spec:editorial]
16:26:12 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:26:34 <doerthe> gkellogg: hold off on w3c/rdf-concepts#57 until next week since it is new
16:29:02 <doerthe> ora: we now have a dependency of a living spec, is that a problem, do we have experience there?
16:29:38 <ora> q+
16:30:46 <ora> ack ora
16:31:40 <doerthe> ora: what do we do concretely? Do we have to state that the dependencies were good at some point in time?
16:32:12 <doerthe> TallTed: normally there is a dated version and this is used
16:32:29 <doerthe> gkellogg: I do not find time stamps
16:32:40 <gkellogg> Snapshot https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/commit-snapshots/2a24a2779199ce1d7e46a3fb068b683a5b84b954/
16:33:05 <doerthe> TallTed: I think it is there but can't check at the moment
16:34:21 <doerthe> AndyS: Are there guarantees about what stays valid?
16:34:42 <gkellogg> q+
16:34:51 <doerthe> ora: either we need guidance or we need to come up with our own principles how to handle it
16:35:32 <doerthe> daveRegget: If you make a concrete question, I can look up how this can be don/is done by others
16:36:51 <doerthe> gkellogg: Maybe we need an infrastructure to get a closest snap shot to our publication?
16:37:21 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:37:21 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, gkellogg
16:37:24 <gkellogg> q?
16:37:26 <gkellogg> ack me
16:37:34 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:37:34 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:37:36 <doerthe> ora: so far we only have one dependency to a living spec, to dom
16:38:00 <gkellogg> q+
16:38:08 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:38:20 <gkellogg> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
16:38:37 <doerthe> gkellogg: we should go over issues which need discussions (as discussed in last meeting)
16:38:41 <dsr_> s/daveRegget/DaveRaggett/
16:38:48 <dsr_> present+ DaveRaggett
16:41:09 <doerthe> gkellog: problem that language tags have different representation (https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5?pane=issue&itemId=34414553) should be discussed
16:41:32 <ora> q+
16:41:33 <doerthe> AndyS: we should ask the community
16:41:35 <gkellogg> s/gkellog/gkellogg/
16:41:43 <gkellogg> q+
16:42:24 <ora> ack ora
16:43:23 <doerthe> ora: options are 1. ask community and wait, then put it in the spec, 2. we make a proposal, 3. give it to RDF canonicalization spec
16:43:44 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:44:28 <doerthe> AndyS: It is not really a canonicalization problem
16:46:26 <doerthe> gkellogg: I also added issues. Forcing implementations to use lower case language tags will break a lot of implementations
16:48:14 <doerthe> gkellogg: RDF canonicalization is bound to RDF 1.1, so we can only make people aware of the problem
16:48:33 <doerthe> ora: could we make a use case for the problem?
16:48:50 <doerthe> gkellogg: how to best do it? wiki?
16:49:05 <doerthe> ora: actual real use case as all other use cases?
16:49:19 <doerthe> gkellogg: I will formulate such a use case
16:49:21 <ora> q?
16:49:26 <gkellogg> action: gkellogg to formulate use case on language tag canonicalization
16:49:33 <gb> Created -> action #82 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/82
16:49:33 <niklasl> q+
16:49:40 <ora> ack niklasl
16:50:36 <gkellogg> Semantics TF calendar: https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/rdf-star-semantics/calendar/
16:51:33 <Tpt> q+
16:51:48 <ora> ack Tpt
16:52:34 <doerthe> Tpt: add to what needs to be done: [missed the point, please help]
16:54:43 <Tpt> s/[missed the point, please help]/a few erratas on the SPARQL query spec/
16:55:11 <gkellogg> zakim, end meeting
16:55:11 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been doerthe, gkellogg, ora, rubensworks, gtw, Tpt, AndyS, pfps, Souri, richard-lea, olaf, niklasl, enrico, DaveRaggett
16:55:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:55:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/10-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:55:52 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gkellogg; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:55:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
16:56:54 <gkellogg> rrsagent, bye
16:56:54 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/08/10-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
16:56:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gkellogg to formulate use case on language tag canonicalization [1]
16:56:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/08/10-rdf-star-irc#T16-49-26
16:56:57 <gb> Created -> action #83 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/83
<pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/08/17-rdf-star-minutes.html