Meeting minutes
<addison> gb, addison is aphillips
<gb> addison, I already had that GitHub account for addison
Agenda Review
Action Items
<addison> gb, list open actions
<gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #31, #30, #28, #27, #18, #16, #15, #13, #12, #11, #10, #9, #8, #7, #6, #5, #4
<addison> #31?
<gb> Action 31 write to wcag chairs pointing out wcag#2680 (on aphillips) due 2023-08-10
r12a: Is there a way to let gb list actions in verbose mode, with descriptions?
bert: Yes, I can add that.
<addison> close #31
<gb> Closed action #31
<addison> #30?
<gb> Action 30 investigate i18n-activity#1595 (WCAG issue) (on xfq) due 2023-08-10
<addison> close #30
<addison> #28?
<gb> Closed action #30
<gb> Action 28 update review request template to include i18n considerations check box (on himorin) due 2023-08-03
<addison> close #28
<gb> Closed action #28
<addison> #27?
<gb> Action 27 write comments about oblique and italic options on css 8914 (on frivoal) due 2023-08-02
<addison> #18?
<gb> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)
<addison> #16?
<gb> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips)
<addison> #15?
<gb> Action 15 Get character styling into w3c stylesheet (on aphillips)
<addison> #13?
<gb> Action 13 Make sure generics are comfortable to read in the content language (on frivoal)
<addison> #12?
<gb> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips)
<addison> #11?
<gb> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal)
<addison> #10?
<gb> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on fantasai)
<addison> #9?
<gb> Action 9 Follow up with ecma-402 on next steps and start tc39 discussion (on aphillips)
<addison> #8?
<gb> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips)
<addison> #7?
<gb> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github)
<addison> #6?
<gb> Action 6 Check if unicode describes backwards deletion clearly and develop doc if not (on aphillips)
<addison> https://
addison: r12a, you may want to comment on this.
… There was also a desire for a better example in Thai. Anybody an idea?
<r12a> https://
<addison> #5?
<gb> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a)
<addison> #4?
<gb> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a)
Info Share
addison: Unicode message format WG is going to atempt a face-to-face around TPAC, the week before, and maybe I make a breakout on Wednesday.
… Some people form Google may be present.
Bert: I have an prototype of gb that works as a GitHub app that asks you to be logged in on GitHub before you can create issues, for security.
r12a: But the person making the issue is an random person on IRC, not useful to know who.
<r12a> https://
<gb> @ri
gb, set names off
r12a: I added technology into Uniview to create markup for a character with automatic lang tag.
<r12a> https://
r12a: There may instances where you want this markup and can't use respec to make it for you.
RADAR Review
<addison> https://
<r12a> https://
<r12a> https://
r12a: All browsers now support dirname in sending a text field.
Close close? issues
<addison> https://
addison: We have a large number off issues marked for close. Those with a green box.
… Those are marked "close?" in our own repo.
… I will look at each issues, see if they did what we asked, and close the issue.
r12a: It may be the other WG that closed the issue, not us. It may have been plh's tool that added "close?" for us because that WG closed their issue.
HTML proposal: A tag to display date and/or time to the user in (their) preferred format
<addison> whatwg/
r12a: Just wanted to put this on people's radar. Not discuss it now.
addison: There is still this lack of attention to the lang tags in a page.
… It's the page author who writes the date and probably wants it displayed in the locale of the page.
… Timezones based on template... Can be an interesting discussion. I will make comments on it.
WCAG 2.2
<addison> https://
<addison> https://
<addison> https://
addison: I merged my comments on Fuqiao's markdown text
… One thing is the process problem.
… Today we need to figure out what to tell WCAG before they go to the next stage.
addison: One problem is that WCAG did not explain *why* they recommend certain things and so it is hard to know what to say for international text.
… E.g., why CJK 40 chars? What about other non-latin scripts?
… Languages may have the features described for English, but they may not be the default.
atsushi: Spacing in Japanese is quite large.
… It is common to create fixed, PDF-type books, for magazines. Such ebooks cannot satisfy the criteria
r12a: We should look at the possible strategies. What have the WCAG people been saying? Have to address these things quite pointedly. Specific things, such as the paragraph spacing doesn't work for Japanese, and the ragged right edge doesn't work for some languages.
… Murato Makoto needs to apply normative rules.
… Is it possible to add or change normative text?
… Maybe add normative tetx that says rules can be disregarded for languages/scripts wheren they are not relevant.
… We don't have to say what the rules for those langs are.
addison: WCAG sounds normative for Japanese.
… I can see their requirements apply to many scripts, not just Latin, e.g. Greek.
… But still not to all alphabetic scripts.
… The exception has to be super careful to give people the right information and the right path out
r12a: There are inconsistencies as well. Paragraph spacing 2 times font size vs 1.5 times
addison: My text starts with "These success criteria only apply to human languages written in the Latin script"
… Maybe add something like languages which have very different requirements.
… It is a bit sloppy to say that.
… What would they say about conformance? About non-latin script languages, would we say you are conformant if you apply the local rules? WCAG wouldn't actually test that.
r12a: There are several thousand languages.
… It can't be a note, it would be stated as an exception.
… It is a bit strange to have reqs just for Latin.
addison: I think Greek and Cyrillic would fit. But where do we stop then?
r12a: No, I don't think we should add more rules. But it is weird to have specifications for Latin only.
addison: They use this in particular for legislation in the EU.
… Murata's problem is that Japanese gov also wants rules and WCAG didn't do Japanese.
… If they didn't do the work for Japanese, Chinese, Arabic..., then they should state what the limits of their work are.
r12a: I recommend going back to WCAG with very precise points about what would not work. And require them to change the spec to say it is limited to Latin. And that cannot be a note, it is normative.
… We have to be very clear.
addison: If I write this, can you review it?
r12a: Not before Tuesday.
addison: Would like to reply faster... Everybody can review it Tuesday.
… Will write to them asking where the rules come from, what the status for other languages is.
r12a: Not necessary to ask that.
… And if they say no, we'll make a Formal Objection.
addison: Because there will be governments that make this a standard where it is not appropriate.
atsushi: Japan translates ISO to JIS
r12a: We can also invite them to our meeting, probably with Philippe as well.
addison: I can propose that, or another time, for reasons of timezones.
AOB?
r12a: The character markup in specdev: there is no mustard in that section. And there is a "see also" but normally see also is for internal links and we use purple blocks for external links. If you want to leave it, I won't object, though.
<addison> https://
addison: It refer to bock just above. But I can pull the mustard from 4.11 and put it in 4.11.1
r12a: Another option is to remove section heading 4.11.1 and make one long section 4.11
addison: 4.11.1 is verbatim from tr-design
r12a: That's OK.
addison: I'll make those changes. But I'm blocked until Elika answers email.
ACTION: fantasai: Approve the character markup PR
<gb> Created action #32