IRC log of pmwg on 2023-08-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:39:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pmwg
13:39:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/04-pmwg-irc
13:39:42 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:40:13 [Zakim]
Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:40:18 [ivan_]
ivan_ has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-08-04: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2023Aug/0000.html
13:40:19 [ivan_]
Chair: wendy
13:40:19 [ivan_]
Date: 2023-08-04
13:40:19 [ivan_]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2023Aug/0000.html
13:40:19 [ivan_]
Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:40:19 [ivan_]
Regrets+ gregorio
13:58:07 [toshiakikoike]
toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg
13:59:21 [wendyreid]
wendyreid has joined #pmwg
14:00:21 [toshiakikoike]
present+
14:00:22 [duga]
duga has joined #pmwg
14:00:51 [ivan_]
present+
14:01:07 [ivan_]
present+ Maskazu_Kitahara
14:01:29 [ivan_]
present+ dauwhe
14:01:54 [ivan_]
present+ tzviya
14:01:56 [CharlesL]
CharlesL has joined #PMWG
14:02:00 [ivan_]
present+ wendy
14:02:04 [dauwhe]
dauwhe has joined #pmwg
14:02:04 [shiestyle]
shiestyle has joined #pmwg
14:02:07 [CharlesL]
present+
14:02:12 [shiestyle]
present+
14:02:14 [ivan_]
present+ brady
14:02:14 [ivan_]
present+ avneesh
14:02:18 [wendyreid]
present+
14:02:18 [duga]
present+
14:02:20 [dauwhe]
present+
14:02:24 [AvneeshSingh]
AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg
14:02:44 [AvneeshSingh]
present+
14:03:22 [MasakazuKitahara]
MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg
14:03:30 [MasakazuKitahara]
present+
14:03:43 [duga]
scribe+
14:04:12 [duga]
wendyreid: Welcome back! We have a big agenda
14:04:15 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:04:18 [ivan_]
present+ matt
14:04:23 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/37/views/1
14:04:25 [George]
present+
14:04:43 [duga]
... we have to maintain all our doucments
14:05:06 [duga]
... they are spread out over multiple repos, and we have carried over issues from previous groups
14:05:25 [duga]
... we can make errata, and some new changes on some types of docs
14:05:34 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/wiki/Publication-steps
14:05:36 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:05:58 [duga]
... We need to agree on the classification of changes
14:06:14 [mgarrish]
mgarrish has joined #pmwg
14:06:19 [mgarrish]
present+
14:06:28 [duga]
... some of the issues have been assigned a class, but we need to make sure there is agreement on those
14:07:02 [duga]
ivan_: Short summary
14:07:18 [duga]
... class 1 and 2 are insignificant changes, no big difference between the two
14:07:28 [duga]
... markup, css, metadata, spelling, etc
14:07:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:07:58 [duga]
... jump to class 4, this is new features
14:08:12 [duga]
... we cannot do this for class 4, but we can for audiobooks and pub manifest
14:08:29 [duga]
... class 3 is more vague, signinficant changes in the document
14:08:52 [duga]
... e.g. maybe we need new tests, and RS may need to think about whether the implementation will change
14:09:07 [duga]
... If it doesn't really force that, then we can consider it class 2
14:09:10 [wendyreid]
q?
14:09:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:09:34 [duga]
... bad thing is we don't have a great algorithm for class 3 vs 2, it is up to the WG to determine
14:10:07 [duga]
... issue 2560 is an example. There was a report of referencing webp, and we need the final ref to it
14:10:44 [duga]
... so is that 2 or 3? Text changed, so definitely 2, but what about 3? Are there significant changes to webp that make people look at implementations
14:10:55 [duga]
... Just one example of a borderline
14:11:12 [duga]
wendyreid: Need to keep this short (lots of agenda items)
14:11:29 [duga]
... so let's jump to those and see if we agree on the assigned classes
14:11:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:11:44 [duga]
... Next item, pub schedule
14:11:50 [AvneeshSingh_]
AvneeshSingh_ has joined #pmwg
14:12:16 [duga]
... Matt and Ivan have been busy with prep work for class 1 and 2
14:12:31 [duga]
... If we move to merge those, we should republish
14:12:46 [duga]
... But going forward we should consider timing and cadence
14:13:33 [duga]
ivan_: Need to understand that when we make a change it does not mean we change a WD and go through the original process of publishing
14:13:34 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:13:50 [duga]
... instead we publish a new rec, not a big deal for small things
14:14:01 [duga]
... but bigger things need a little more work
14:14:15 [duga]
... but what we publish is immediately a new rec
14:14:25 [duga]
... too frequently might be burdensome
14:14:46 [AvneeshSingh_]
+1 to 6 months interval
14:14:47 [duga]
... we should not publish more than quarterly, and maybe even every 6 months
14:15:18 [duga]
... Publishing now may not be a good idea, since we will discuss things at TPAC
14:15:34 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:15:36 [duga]
... for instance issue 2412 (webtoons) may need more discussion at TPAC
14:15:50 [tzviya]
+1 to wait to publish until we have more issues
14:15:54 [duga]
... so probably better to pile up, and publish in Oct or Nov
14:16:19 [duga]
wendyreid: Our community is change averse
14:16:27 [duga]
... so let's do fewer
14:16:44 [CharlesL]
q+
14:16:45 [duga]
... 6 months is predictable
14:16:50 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
14:16:57 [duga]
CharlesL: I agree generally
14:17:09 [duga]
... but editorial changes maybe go out sooner?
14:17:20 [duga]
... just to make the doc as accurate as possible
14:17:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:17:44 [duga]
... For instance, a bad link that is causing confusion may want to be updated quickly
14:17:59 [duga]
wendyreid: By end of year seems to hit those points
14:18:26 [duga]
wendyreid: any oppo to 6 month cadence? <crickets>
14:18:27 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/4
14:18:50 [duga]
... On to TPAC agenda planning
14:19:06 [duga]
... We have 2 sessions over 2 days, ~7 hours
14:19:14 [duga]
... would like input on topics
14:19:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:19:35 [ivan_]
q+
14:19:35 [duga]
... speak up now or add it to the issue
14:19:38 [tzviya]
q+ to ask about BG.CG
14:19:39 [wendyreid]
ack ivan_
14:20:09 [duga]
ivan_: Will we have enough info to make the ISO decision?
14:20:14 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
14:20:14 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to ask about BG.CG
14:20:18 [duga]
wendyreid: Still waiting on the European commision
14:20:30 [duga]
tzviya: We need to ask Cristina directly
14:20:50 [duga]
... We need more coordination between business, cg, and this group
14:21:11 [shiestyle]
q+
14:21:17 [duga]
... we need more cross coords
14:21:17 [wendyreid]
ack shiestyle
14:21:34 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:21:38 [duga]
shiestyle: Gregorio suggested a11y
14:21:40 [CharlesL]
Charles is attending TPAC in person
14:21:47 [duga]
wendyreid: Yes, I will handle that
14:21:49 [George]
George virtually
14:23:10 [toshiakikoike]
koike virtually
14:24:01 [duga]
... [summarizing who is attending TPAC physically/virtually]
14:24:45 [duga]
tzviya: Anything on audiobooks or pub manifest?
14:25:02 [duga]
... invite Laurent to discuss his work
14:25:15 [duga]
... what about Hadrien?
14:25:26 [tzviya]
s/his work/his work on TDM
14:25:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:25:46 [duga]
wendyreid: We will do some reach out
14:25:57 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/37/views/1
14:25:58 [duga]
... Let's go through issues
14:26:26 [duga]
... mostly epub issues due to carryover
14:26:49 [duga]
... Matt or Ivan, do you want to go over things?
14:26:57 [duga]
ivan_: I leave it to Matt
14:27:16 [duga]
mgarrish: I have put in pull requests for everything in epub that could be fixed
14:27:26 [duga]
... just webp left, due to timing issues
14:27:34 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:27:44 [duga]
... do we want to go over them one at a time? Or something else?
14:27:51 [duga]
wendyreid: Let's do one at a time
14:27:59 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2578
14:28:18 [duga]
... 2578 looks easy
14:28:55 [duga]
ivan_: For each one we have to officially decide if it is an errate
14:29:13 [CharlesL]
+1
14:29:17 [duga]
wendyreid: This looks like errata, forgot to remove a note when we published
14:29:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:29:54 [tzviya]
+1
14:29:58 [duga]
ivan_: This is on record, that is fine
14:30:10 [duga]
wendyreid: Oppo to calling it errata? <no>
14:30:17 [duga]
... reolved it is errata
14:30:47 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2567
14:31:26 [duga]
... 2567 looks like an obvious error, class 1, make it errata
14:31:29 [tzviya]
errata
14:31:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:32:03 [duga]
q+
14:32:34 [wendyreid]
ack duga
14:32:56 [wendyreid]
duga: Raising this on GH and in issues, it's been reviewed by the group.
14:33:12 [duga]
duga: Github is bringing it to the group
14:33:29 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2556
14:33:32 [duga]
tzviya: Is there anything on the list we need to discuss?
14:33:34 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:34:15 [duga]
wendyreid: 2556 is class 3 (maybe), there is currently a restricton on epub:type in svg content docs for anchors
14:34:25 [duga]
... this should be better defined
14:34:42 [duga]
mgarrish: We have 3 classes in svg where it is allowed
14:34:54 [duga]
... but it turns out there is another element that also needs it
14:35:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:35:37 [duga]
ivan_: But it is an obvious example of class 3, e.g. epubcheck at least will need to change
14:35:47 [duga]
... is it ok to be errata?
14:36:17 [duga]
mgarrish: Should we leave these open or close them?
14:36:23 [duga]
ivan_: depends
14:36:42 [duga]
wendyreid: Editorially it is hard to keep things open due to merge conflicts
14:37:18 [duga]
... if we are accepting the PRs we don't need to leave things open
14:37:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:37:36 [duga]
... The editors draft will just be more up to date
14:37:56 [duga]
ivan_: Are the PRs changes directly, or updates to the text?
14:38:12 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2569
14:38:17 [duga]
mgarrish: class 1 and 2 are direct, class 3 has full edits (ins/del/etc)
14:38:23 [duga]
ivan_: Ok, lets merge
14:38:48 [duga]
wendyreid: 2569 summary
14:39:00 [duga]
mgarrish: 2569 and 2570 are similar
14:39:19 [duga]
... Just need a note to say use "none" for a11y
14:39:21 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2570
14:39:32 [duga]
... and the other change is to note exemptions
14:39:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:40:07 [duga]
... mainly for data tracking to identify which allows for tracking a11y exemptions and understand why
14:40:28 [duga]
... so this is class 2 clarification and suggestions
14:40:52 [duga]
... The exemption value can live in a note, don't need to add it to the spec itself
14:41:13 [duga]
... We can decide if we do a 1.1 or 1.2. WG note is fine now
14:41:20 [duga]
wendyreid: Comments or oppo?
14:41:30 [duga]
ivan_: That means we need to define a new WG note
14:41:33 [AvneeshSingh]
+1 from me
14:41:33 [duga]
mgarrish: Yes
14:41:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:41:41 [CharlesL]
q+
14:41:51 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
14:42:02 [duga]
CharlesL: Do we need to point to the note from 1.1?
14:42:23 [duga]
mgarrish: Yes, the informative section needs to ref the note, so we need to get the note out first
14:42:50 [AvneeshSingh]
q+
14:42:55 [wendyreid]
ack AvneeshSingh
14:43:17 [duga]
AvneeshSingh: Just want to say this was incubated in the CG and brought to the WG
14:43:25 [duga]
... want to encourage more of that
14:43:34 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:43:37 [George]
q+
14:43:41 [wendyreid]
ack George
14:43:58 [duga]
George: Anything that would trigger an epubcheck change would be class 3, right?
14:44:06 [duga]
ivan_: Yes
14:44:30 [AvneeshSingh]
anything that will trigeer error in EPUBCheck or remove an error from EPUBCheck
14:44:40 [duga]
tzviya: It has to be, anything that triggers a change in epubcheck changes our must/may statements, so that is a real functionality change
14:45:21 [duga]
CharlesL: With some other things like webp that is being updated which is just changing the ref, couldn't this cause a functional change?
14:45:32 [ivan_]
q+
14:45:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:45:41 [duga]
mgarrish: We need to wait for the RFC change first
14:46:13 [duga]
... How much changes in the RFC will impact how substantive our change is (2 or 3)
14:46:15 [wendyreid]
ack ivan_
14:46:28 [duga]
dauwhe: But unlikely they will break the web with updates to webp
14:46:51 [duga]
ivan_: In the current spec we ref a Google dev page, the only thing we had at the time
14:47:00 [duga]
... It is an odd normative reference
14:47:09 [duga]
... this means we move to an ietf ref
14:47:22 [duga]
... slightly more than have a good ref to a format
14:47:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:47:42 [duga]
... it is also removing a company doc reference out of a standard
14:47:53 [duga]
wendyreid: Actual doc changes are still minimal
14:48:00 [duga]
ivan_: But it has symbolic meaning
14:48:21 [duga]
... so we might want to make it class 3 to call attention to it as an important change
14:48:49 [duga]
... probably implementations don't change, but would support class 3 to call attention to it
14:49:07 [CharlesL]
q+
14:49:09 [duga]
wendyreid: Don't mind be prudent to call attention when it could be signficant
14:49:11 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
14:49:21 [duga]
CharlesL: It will be in the change logs
14:49:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:49:39 [duga]
... so could call out the importance in the change logs
14:49:50 [duga]
ivan_: You are right, but there is a little more to it
14:50:25 [duga]
... publishing a rec with class 3 changes is a several change process, there is an AC review
14:50:41 [duga]
... editorially it is a pain, esp for Matt
14:50:58 [duga]
... it needs to be presented with the changes marked clearly to the AC
14:51:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:51:40 [duga]
mgarrish: Draws people attention
14:51:54 [duga]
... not sure how to even do it
14:52:13 [duga]
q+
14:52:43 [wendyreid]
ack duga
14:53:23 [wendyreid]
duga: One thing to consider, if we're going to point this out, it will call people's attention to it, and people might spend half a day reading WebP RFCs they don't need to.
14:53:24 [tzviya]
+1 to duga
14:53:28 [ivan_]
q+
14:53:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:53:37 [dauwhe]
+1000 to Brady
14:53:38 [wendyreid]
... I understand it's an important change to the spec, but not necessarily to implementers.
14:54:01 [wendyreid]
... I would suggest caution
14:54:22 [wendyreid]
ack ivan_
14:54:49 [duga]
ivan_: I personally have no idea if there is a difference to the ietf version vs google one
14:55:25 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:55:37 [wendyreid]
duga: Agreed, but we can be cautious, someone here could spend that day and we could highlight that. Or we might look and say it's identical, it's not a big deal
14:55:43 [wendyreid]
... not highlight it as much
14:55:52 [wendyreid]
... we don't need to tell every implementer to read it
14:56:01 [wendyreid]
ivan_: Action item for Brady?
14:56:14 [wendyreid]
duga: I am happy to ask someone from google to review it
14:56:37 [duga]
CharlesL: If epubcheck reports an error, will it ref the RFC??
14:56:48 [duga]
mgarrish: No, it won't point people at specs
14:57:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
14:57:41 [duga]
wendyreid: Let's leave it where it is now
14:57:57 [duga]
... and we can leave it to Brady to tell us if anything significant has changed?
14:58:11 [duga]
ivan_: editors job is different for class 2 and class 3
14:59:18 [CharlesL]
CharlesL has left #pmwg
14:59:19 [duga]
duga has joined #pmwg
14:59:19 [ivan_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/04-pmwg-minutes.html ivan_
14:59:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
15:00:13 [ivan_]
zakim, end meeting
15:00:13 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, ivan_, Maskazu_Kitahara, dauwhe, tzviya, wendy, CharlesL, shiestyle, brady, avneesh, wendyreid, duga, AvneeshSingh,
15:00:16 [Zakim]
... MasakazuKitahara, matt, George, mgarrish
15:00:16 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:00:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/04-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim
15:00:53 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, ivan_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
15:00:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pmwg
15:00:53 [duga]
duga has left #pmwg
15:01:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
15:07:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
15:27:33 [George]
George has joined #pmwg
16:23:10 [George]
George has joined #pmwg