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13:39:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:40:13 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:40:18 <ivan_> ivan_ has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-08-04: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2023Aug/0000.html
13:40:19 <ivan_> Chair: wendy
13:40:19 <ivan_> Date: 2023-08-04
13:40:19 <ivan_> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2023Aug/0000.html
13:40:19 <ivan_> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:40:19 <ivan_> Regrets+ gregorio
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14:00:21 <toshiakikoike> present+
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14:00:51 <ivan_> present+
14:01:07 <ivan_> present+ Maskazu_Kitahara
14:01:29 <ivan_> present+ dauwhe
14:01:54 <ivan_> present+ tzviya
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14:02:00 <ivan_> present+ wendy
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14:02:07 <CharlesL> present+
14:02:12 <shiestyle> present+
14:02:14 <ivan_> present+ brady
14:02:14 <ivan_> present+ avneesh
14:02:18 <wendyreid> present+
14:02:18 <duga> present+
14:02:20 <dauwhe> present+
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14:03:30 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
14:03:43 <duga> scribe+
14:04:12 <duga> wendyreid: Welcome back! We have a big agenda
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14:04:18 <ivan_> present+ matt
14:04:23 <wendyreid> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/37/views/1
14:04:25 <George> present+
14:04:43 <duga> ... we have to maintain all our doucments
14:05:06 <duga> ... they are spread out over multiple repos, and we have carried over issues from previous groups
14:05:25 <duga> ... we can make errata, and some new changes on some types of docs
14:05:34 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/wiki/Publication-steps
14:05:36 <George> George has joined #pmwg
14:05:58 <duga> ... We need to agree on the classification of changes
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14:06:19 <mgarrish> present+
14:06:28 <duga> ... some of the issues have been assigned a class, but we need to make sure there is agreement on those
14:07:02 <duga> ivan_: Short summary
14:07:18 <duga> ... class 1 and 2 are insignificant changes, no big difference between the two
14:07:28 <duga> ... markup, css, metadata, spelling, etc
14:07:33 <George> George has joined #pmwg
14:07:58 <duga> ... jump to class 4, this is new features
14:08:12 <duga> ... we cannot do this for class 4, but we can for audiobooks and pub manifest
14:08:29 <duga> ... class 3 is more vague, signinficant changes in the document
14:08:52 <duga> ... e.g. maybe we need new tests, and RS may need to think about whether the implementation will change
14:09:07 <duga> ... If it doesn't really force that, then we can consider it class 2
14:09:10 <wendyreid> q?
14:09:33 <George> George has joined #pmwg
14:09:34 <duga> ... bad thing is we don't have a great algorithm for class 3 vs 2, it is up to the WG to determine
14:10:07 <duga> ... issue 2560 is an example. There was a report of referencing webp, and we need the final ref to it
14:10:44 <duga> ... so is that 2 or 3? Text changed, so definitely 2, but what about 3? Are there significant changes to webp that make people look at implementations
14:10:55 <duga> ... Just one example of a borderline
14:11:12 <duga> wendyreid: Need to keep this short (lots of agenda items)
14:11:29 <duga> ... so let's jump to those and see if we agree on the assigned classes
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14:11:44 <duga> ... Next item, pub schedule
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14:12:16 <duga> ... Matt and Ivan have been busy with prep work for class 1 and 2
14:12:31 <duga> ... If we move to merge those, we should republish
14:12:46 <duga> ... But going forward we should consider timing and cadence
14:13:33 <duga> ivan_: Need to understand that when we make a change it does not mean we change a WD and go through the original process of publishing
14:13:34 <George> George has joined #pmwg
14:13:50 <duga> ... instead we publish a new rec, not a big deal for small things
14:14:01 <duga> ... but bigger things need a little more work
14:14:15 <duga> ... but what we publish is immediately a new rec
14:14:25 <duga> ... too frequently might be burdensome
14:14:46 <AvneeshSingh_> +1 to 6 months interval
14:14:47 <duga> ... we should not publish more than quarterly, and maybe even every 6 months
14:15:18 <duga> ... Publishing now may not be a good idea, since we will discuss things at TPAC
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14:15:36 <duga> ... for instance issue 2412 (webtoons) may need more discussion at TPAC
14:15:50 <tzviya> +1 to wait to publish until we have more issues
14:15:54 <duga> ... so probably better to pile up, and publish in Oct or Nov
14:16:19 <duga> wendyreid: Our community is change averse
14:16:27 <duga> ... so let's do fewer
14:16:44 <CharlesL> q+
14:16:45 <duga> ... 6 months is predictable
14:16:50 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:16:57 <duga> CharlesL: I agree generally
14:17:09 <duga> ... but editorial changes maybe go out sooner?
14:17:20 <duga> ... just to make the doc as accurate as possible
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14:17:44 <duga> ... For instance, a bad link that is causing confusion may want to be updated quickly
14:17:59 <duga> wendyreid: By end of year seems to hit those points
14:18:26 <duga> wendyreid: any oppo to 6 month cadence? <crickets>
14:18:27 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/4
14:18:50 <duga> ... On to TPAC agenda planning
14:19:06 <duga> ... We have 2 sessions over 2 days, ~7 hours
14:19:14 <duga> ... would like input on topics
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14:19:35 <ivan_> q+
14:19:35 <duga> ... speak up now or add it to the issue
14:19:38 <tzviya> q+ to ask about BG.CG
14:19:39 <wendyreid> ack ivan_
14:20:09 <duga> ivan_: Will we have enough info to make the ISO decision?
14:20:14 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:20:14 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about BG.CG
14:20:18 <duga> wendyreid: Still waiting on the European commision
14:20:30 <duga> tzviya: We need to ask Cristina directly
14:20:50 <duga> ... We need more coordination between business, cg, and this group
14:21:11 <shiestyle> q+
14:21:17 <duga> ... we need more cross coords
14:21:17 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
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14:21:38 <duga> shiestyle: Gregorio suggested a11y
14:21:40 <CharlesL> Charles is attending TPAC in person
14:21:47 <duga> wendyreid: Yes, I will handle that
14:21:49 <George> George virtually
14:23:10 <toshiakikoike> koike virtually
14:24:01 <duga> ... [summarizing who is attending TPAC physically/virtually]
14:24:45 <duga> tzviya: Anything on audiobooks or pub manifest?
14:25:02 <duga> ... invite Laurent to discuss his work
14:25:15 <duga> ... what about Hadrien?
14:25:26 <tzviya> s/his work/his work on TDM
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14:25:46 <duga> wendyreid: We will do some reach out
14:25:57 <wendyreid> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/37/views/1
14:25:58 <duga> ... Let's go through issues
14:26:26 <duga> ... mostly epub issues due to carryover
14:26:49 <duga> ... Matt or Ivan, do you want to go over things?
14:26:57 <duga> ivan_: I leave it to Matt
14:27:16 <duga> mgarrish: I have put in pull requests for everything in epub that could be fixed
14:27:26 <duga> ... just webp left, due to timing issues
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14:27:44 <duga> ... do we want to go over them one at a time? Or something else?
14:27:51 <duga> wendyreid: Let's do one at a time
14:27:59 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2578
14:28:18 <duga> ... 2578 looks easy
14:28:55 <duga> ivan_: For each one we have to officially decide if it is an errate
14:29:13 <CharlesL> +1
14:29:17 <duga> wendyreid: This looks like errata, forgot to remove a note when we published
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14:29:54 <tzviya> +1
14:29:58 <duga> ivan_: This is on record, that is fine
14:30:10 <duga> wendyreid: Oppo to calling it errata? <no>
14:30:17 <duga> ... reolved it is errata
14:30:47 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2567
14:31:26 <duga> ... 2567 looks like an obvious error, class 1, make it errata
14:31:29 <tzviya> errata
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14:32:03 <duga> q+
14:32:34 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:32:56 <wendyreid> duga: Raising this on GH and in issues, it's been reviewed by the group.
14:33:12 <duga> duga: Github is bringing it to the group
14:33:29 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2556
14:33:32 <duga> tzviya: Is there anything on the list we need to discuss?
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14:34:15 <duga> wendyreid: 2556 is class 3 (maybe), there is currently a restricton on epub:type in svg content docs for anchors
14:34:25 <duga> ... this should be better defined
14:34:42 <duga> mgarrish: We have 3 classes in svg where it is allowed
14:34:54 <duga> ... but it turns out there is another element that also needs it
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14:35:37 <duga> ivan_: But it is an obvious example of class 3, e.g. epubcheck at least will need to change
14:35:47 <duga> ... is it ok to be errata?
14:36:17 <duga> mgarrish: Should we leave these open or close them?
14:36:23 <duga> ivan_: depends
14:36:42 <duga> wendyreid: Editorially it is hard to keep things open due to merge conflicts
14:37:18 <duga> ... if we are accepting the PRs we don't need to leave things open
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14:37:36 <duga> ... The editors draft will just be more up to date
14:37:56 <duga> ivan_: Are the PRs changes directly, or updates to the text?
14:38:12 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2569
14:38:17 <duga> mgarrish: class 1 and 2 are direct, class 3 has full edits (ins/del/etc)
14:38:23 <duga> ivan_: Ok, lets merge
14:38:48 <duga> wendyreid: 2569 summary
14:39:00 <duga> mgarrish: 2569 and 2570 are similar
14:39:19 <duga> ... Just need a note to say use "none" for a11y
14:39:21 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2570
14:39:32 <duga> ... and the other change is to note exemptions
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14:40:07 <duga> ... mainly for data tracking to identify which allows for tracking a11y exemptions and understand why
14:40:28 <duga> ... so this is class 2 clarification and suggestions
14:40:52 <duga> ... The exemption value can live in a note, don't need to add it to the spec itself
14:41:13 <duga> ... We can decide if we do a 1.1 or 1.2. WG note is fine now
14:41:20 <duga> wendyreid: Comments or oppo?
14:41:30 <duga> ivan_: That means we need to define a new WG note
14:41:33 <AvneeshSingh> +1 from me
14:41:33 <duga> mgarrish: Yes
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14:41:41 <CharlesL> q+
14:41:51 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:42:02 <duga> CharlesL: Do we need to point to the note from 1.1?
14:42:23 <duga> mgarrish: Yes, the informative section needs to ref the note, so we need to get the note out first
14:42:50 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:42:55 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:43:17 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Just want to say this was incubated in the CG and brought to the WG
14:43:25 <duga> ... want to encourage more of that
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14:43:37 <George> q+
14:43:41 <wendyreid> ack George
14:43:58 <duga> George: Anything that would trigger an epubcheck change would be class 3, right?
14:44:06 <duga> ivan_: Yes
14:44:30 <AvneeshSingh> anything that will trigeer error in EPUBCheck or remove an error from EPUBCheck
14:44:40 <duga> tzviya: It has to be, anything that triggers a change in epubcheck changes our must/may statements, so that is a real functionality change
14:45:21 <duga> CharlesL: With some other things like webp that is being updated which is just changing the ref, couldn't this cause a functional change?
14:45:32 <ivan_> q+
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14:45:41 <duga> mgarrish: We need to wait for the RFC change first
14:46:13 <duga> ... How much changes in the RFC will impact how substantive our change is (2 or 3)
14:46:15 <wendyreid> ack ivan_
14:46:28 <duga> dauwhe: But unlikely they will break the web with updates to webp
14:46:51 <duga> ivan_: In the current spec we ref a Google dev page, the only thing we had at the time
14:47:00 <duga> ... It is an odd normative reference
14:47:09 <duga> ... this means we move to an ietf ref
14:47:22 <duga> ... slightly more than have a good ref to a format
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14:47:42 <duga> ... it is also removing a company doc reference out of a standard
14:47:53 <duga> wendyreid: Actual doc changes are still minimal
14:48:00 <duga> ivan_: But it has symbolic meaning
14:48:21 <duga> ... so we might want to make it class 3 to call attention to it as an important change
14:48:49 <duga> ... probably implementations don't change, but would support class 3 to call attention to it
14:49:07 <CharlesL> q+
14:49:09 <duga> wendyreid: Don't mind be prudent to call attention when it could be signficant
14:49:11 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:49:21 <duga> CharlesL: It will be in the change logs
14:49:33 <George> George has joined #pmwg
14:49:39 <duga> ... so could call out the importance in the change logs
14:49:50 <duga> ivan_: You are right, but there is a little more to it
14:50:25 <duga> ... publishing a rec with class 3 changes is a several change process, there is an AC review
14:50:41 <duga> ... editorially it is a pain, esp for Matt
14:50:58 <duga> ... it needs to be presented with the changes marked clearly to the AC
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14:51:40 <duga> mgarrish: Draws people attention
14:51:54 <duga> ... not sure how to even do it
14:52:13 <duga> q+
14:52:43 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:53:23 <wendyreid> duga: One thing to consider, if we're going to point this out, it will call people's attention to it, and people might spend half a day reading WebP RFCs they don't need to.
14:53:24 <tzviya> +1 to duga
14:53:28 <ivan_> q+
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14:53:37 <dauwhe> +1000 to Brady
14:53:38 <wendyreid> ... I understand it's an important change to the spec, but not necessarily to implementers.
14:54:01 <wendyreid> ... I would suggest caution
14:54:22 <wendyreid> ack ivan_
14:54:49 <duga> ivan_: I personally have no idea if there is a difference to the ietf version vs google one
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14:55:37 <wendyreid> duga: Agreed, but we can be cautious, someone here could spend that day and we could highlight that. Or we might look and say it's identical, it's not a big deal
14:55:43 <wendyreid> ... not highlight it as much
14:55:52 <wendyreid> ... we don't need to tell every implementer to read it
14:56:01 <wendyreid> ivan_: Action item for Brady?
14:56:14 <wendyreid> duga: I am happy to ask someone from google to review it
14:56:37 <duga> CharlesL: If epubcheck reports an error, will it ref the RFC??
14:56:48 <duga> mgarrish: No, it won't point people at specs
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14:57:41 <duga> wendyreid: Let's leave it where it is now
14:57:57 <duga> ... and we can leave it to Brady to tell us if anything significant has changed?
14:58:11 <duga> ivan_: editors job is different for class 2 and class 3
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14:59:19 <ivan_> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/04-pmwg-minutes.html ivan_
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15:00:13 <ivan_> zakim, end meeting
15:00:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, ivan_, Maskazu_Kitahara, dauwhe, tzviya, wendy, CharlesL, shiestyle, brady, avneesh, wendyreid, duga, AvneeshSingh,
15:00:16 <Zakim> ... MasakazuKitahara, matt, George, mgarrish
15:00:16 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:00:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/04-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim
15:00:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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