IRC log of tt on 2023-08-03

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:51 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/257
15:01:03 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-minutes.html
15:01:06 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:01:22 [nigel]
Present: Andreas, Gary, Pierre, Nigel, Chris
15:01:36 [nigel]
Chair: Gary, Nigel
15:01:39 [cpn]
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15:02:05 [nigel]
nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG Teleconference 2023-08-03 1500 UTC. Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/257 joining details: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/fb1d4436-271d-4b22-812c-986f9672d8f0/20230803T150000
15:02:34 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
15:03:16 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:03:34 [nigel]
Nigel: Agenda for today:
15:03:35 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
15:03:41 [nigel]
* IMSC-HRM
15:03:50 [nigel]
s/*/..*
15:04:01 [nigel]
.. DAPT
15:05:15 [nigel]
Present+ Atsushi
15:05:15 [nigel]
Nigel: TPAC 2023 planning
15:05:15 [nigel]
Present+ Matt
15:05:20 [nigel]
Nigel: Any other business, or points to make sure we cover?
15:05:24 [MattS]
MattS has joined #tt
15:05:31 [nigel]
group: none
15:05:44 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC-HRM
15:05:58 [nigel]
Nigel: I think the main point here is the call for implementations
15:06:16 [nigel]
.. Pierre, you drafted some text didn't you?
15:06:17 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes
15:06:31 [nigel]
.. I've been contacting people privately.
15:06:41 [nigel]
Nigel: I think that's fine, we don't need to do more than that.
15:07:10 [nigel]
.. I have seen one response from Andreas offering to process some content.
15:07:17 [nigel]
.. Anything more to be said for now?
15:07:37 [nigel]
Pierre: No, it's summer so hard to get attention, but I'm optimistic we will get at least
15:07:43 [nigel]
.. 2 content implementations in the fall
15:08:19 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks, action remains with all to prompt any contacts to get in touch if they can
15:08:28 [nigel]
.. process content from implementations through the HRM validator.
15:08:51 [nigel]
Pierre: We should try to set some kind of timescale to be done before, say, the New Year.
15:09:06 [nigel]
.. If you know anyone with a collection of IMSC, EBU-TT-D, SMPTE-TT files, please alert them
15:09:18 [nigel]
.. and ask them if they could run a proportion of their content through the HRM, that'd be great, thanks.
15:09:31 [nigel]
Topic: DAPT
15:09:58 [nigel]
Nigel: Updates from me:
15:11:23 [cpn]
Nigel: For wide review and horizontal reviews, we've sent all the horizonal review emails out. We want to get feedback from companies who do translation, but don't have a good list
15:11:50 [cpn]
... If anyone wants to get in touch with their favourite provider to ask feedback, that would be awesome
15:12:03 [cpn]
... From a formal perspective, we've done what was needed for charter
15:12:13 [cpn]
... That's the non-horizontal review stuff
15:12:35 [nigel]
q+ MattS
15:12:42 [cpn]
Andreas: If we know someone we could contact, should we do it through you or via liaison or just point them to the draft and ask feedback?
15:13:16 [cpn]
Nigel: I don't mind, but I'll be away for August, so don't want to be a blocker
15:13:28 [cpn]
... If any of those orgs will be at IBC, I'd be happy to meet them there
15:13:32 [cpn]
Andreas: OK
15:13:37 [nigel]
ack MattS
15:13:56 [cpn]
Matt: Have you contacted MESA? I was looking for a contact there
15:14:04 [cpn]
Nigel: I don't think I have, but would love to
15:14:13 [cpn]
Matt: Let me see if I can find someone
15:14:16 [cpn]
Nigel: Thank you
15:14:45 [cpn]
Nigel: On horizontal reviews, we've started Accessibility, Privacy, and Security reviews
15:14:53 [cpn]
... That leaves TAG and i18n
15:15:05 [cpn]
... Cyril took the action to do those
15:15:17 [cpn]
... and to write an explainer in the DAPT wiki
15:15:26 [nigel]
-> DAPT Explainer https://github.com/w3c/dapt/wiki/DAPT-Explained
15:15:57 [cpn]
Nigel: Comments and feedback would be welcome. The explainer is a prerequisite for TAG review, and i18n also appreciate it
15:16:24 [cpn]
... We've made some spec changes to improve i18n. Their checklist generated an issue to do with how we represent bidirectional text in attributes
15:16:43 [cpn]
... Also in the TTML metadata elements, which only permit PCDATA and not markup to signal bidirectional text
15:17:03 [cpn]
... We made some editorial changes to the DAPT spec to help explain how that situation can be dealt with
15:17:13 [cpn]
... There's a remaining issue, #177, about adding an example
15:17:32 [cpn]
... Cyril is on the hook to request the TAG and i18n reviews
15:18:00 [cpn]
... The other thing we haven't done yet: we merged the draft boilerplate text for registries, but haven't created the registries that DAPT needs
15:18:06 [cpn]
... Not sure we can go to CR without it
15:18:35 [cpn]
... I haven't had time to come up with a plan, add to DAPT itself or put into a separate document
15:18:38 [cpn]
q+
15:18:51 [nigel]
ack cpn
15:19:01 [nigel]
Chris: Question: what is expected to go in the Registries, and what would be the lifecycle for updating
15:19:07 [nigel]
.. them compared to DAPT itself.
15:19:20 [nigel]
.. If you put the Registry in the spec then you have to produce a new version of the spec, either a
15:19:37 [nigel]
.. CRS or an updated Rec, for adding a new registry entry. If you do it separately then the updates
15:19:41 [nigel]
.. can be managed in a different way.
15:20:26 [cpn]
Nigel: As I understand it from the current Process, sections of specs that are registries can be updated without going through a process to update the CR or Rec
15:20:33 [cpn]
... So can be done either way and it should be OK
15:20:50 [cpn]
... I'd expect the registry entries to be changed more often than DAPT would be changed
15:21:25 [cpn]
... The nice thing about putting the registry as a table in the spec, is there's just one document to look at rather than dereference the spec to another document
15:21:35 [cpn]
... That suggests what I want the answer to be
15:21:52 [cpn]
... It would be good to confirm what th e Process requires for changing a registry entry in a spec
15:21:58 [cpn]
s/th e/the/
15:22:21 [cpn]
Subtopic: Issues and PRs for discussion
15:22:38 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/labels/agenda DAPT Issues and Pull Requests labelled as Agenda
15:23:37 [cpn]
Nigel: We had a PR that didn't build correctly, we rely on a GitHub Action, v2 checkout, but it logs a warning about a deprecated version of Node
15:23:51 [cpn]
... Atsushi, will you check that's OK before we merge the PR?
15:24:10 [cpn]
Atsushi: I should check with the spec-prod action
15:24:18 [cpn]
Nigel: That's fine, it's not urgent
15:24:28 [atai]
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15:25:28 [nigel]
Subtopic: Use of the value "Original" for Text Language Source when it refers to non-dialogue sound w3c/dapt#173
15:25:38 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/173
15:26:19 [cpn]
Nigel: Andreas made the point that there's a problem with transcribing and translating things not spoken and not written. For example, a scene where there's something visual that you want to decscribe
15:26:55 [cpn]
... or a sound, not someone speaking, such as a door slam, how do you label the transcript of that in terms of its language source?
15:27:25 [cpn]
... I attempted to change the text in PR #179. Thanks Andreas for your helpful review
15:28:06 [cpn]
... There's this category of stuff, not non-verbal. Some languages don't have a written down form, e.g., sign languages
15:28:20 [cpn]
... They would count in this, if you transcribe someone signing
15:28:42 [cpn]
... But I don't know a generic term for that kind of thing, something without an inherent written language
15:28:53 [atai]
q+
15:29:04 [cpn]
Pierre: Sign language has a language tag
15:29:29 [cpn]
Nigel: But if you're going to transcribe it into timed text, you'd do it in a language of your choice
15:29:35 [cpn]
Pierre: So what's the issue then?
15:29:49 [cpn]
Nigel: It's partly terminology, how we talk about this kind of transcript text in the DAPT spec
15:29:54 [MattS]
q+
15:30:04 [gkatsev]
q+
15:30:19 [cpn]
Pierre: There's dialog, music and effects, background sounds that could be transcribed, visual elements such as road signs
15:30:37 [cpn]
... A scene where somebody is signing might be good to transcribe
15:30:51 [cpn]
... Are you trying to label what they are or their source?
15:31:14 [cpn]
Nigel: Trying to come up with terminology to talk about things we're going to transcribe
15:31:40 [cpn]
... If a programme is in Dutch, most of the stuff you're transcribing is in Dutch. If you're also transcribing a sound, you'd do that in Dutch as well
15:32:05 [cpn]
... If audio describinng, would be in Dutch. If translating for another language, you'd translate all the transcript to the other language
15:32:18 [cpn]
... We have a text language source, can be original or translation at the moment
15:32:28 [cpn]
... Andreas has an interesting proposal
15:32:28 [nigel]
ack atai
15:34:48 [nigel]
ack MattS
15:35:13 [cpn]
Matt: If you've written sign language down you've translated. If you written BSL down in English, you've translated to English
15:35:38 [cpn]
... There isn't an alphabet based written form, there are drawn descriptions of the signs
15:35:42 [nigel]
+1
15:35:55 [nigel]
ack gkatsev
15:35:59 [cpn]
... For fear of upsetting people, we should be careful about terminology
15:36:29 [cpn]
Gary: One of Pierre's points was about signs and things not auditory descriptions. Would it be worth having a way to differentiate that as well?
15:37:09 [cpn]
... Could non-dialog be better than non-verbal? It gets complicated, if sign language is a translation, it's technically also dialog
15:37:19 [cpn]
Andreas: Andreas: After looking at your proposal, which makes the problem clear, there possibly is no need to catch the text language source
15:38:00 [cpn]
... If there is no inherint language for content e.g. for non verbal sound we may not need the property Text Language Source because it does not not apply.
15:38:11 [cpn]
s/Andreas: Andreas/Andreas:/
15:38:36 [cpn]
Nigel: I think it's mandatory, so I think we'd need to make it non-mandatory or add something ??
15:39:10 [cpn]
Gary: If the original description is in Dutch and you're translating, unless you're writing a new description in the target language, the language would be Dutch
15:39:18 [cpn]
Nigel: That's what I thought
15:39:31 [cpn]
... I think there's another iteration to do to capture the options more precisely
15:39:43 [cpn]
... We need to track when something has been translated and when it hasn't
15:40:28 [cpn]
... I've just added the signing as another part of the problem, but could handle it differently. They're interpreting it into the original language for the transcript, but they could have chosen a different language
15:41:09 [cpn]
... Perhaps there's a distinction to make between someone speaking in an original language vs an interpretation in the first language the transcript was written in
15:41:42 [nigel]
q?
15:42:36 [nigel]
SUMMARY: May be worth another iteration thinking about this: in particular, distinguishing between original-in-source and original-interpretation-for-transcript.
15:43:47 [nigel]
Subtopic: Add examples of bidi in desc and bidi in p. w3c/dapt#177
15:43:51 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/177
15:44:33 [cpn]
Nigel: In the i18n review we realised you can't put bidirectional markup in TTML metadata elements or attributes, but you can put them into content elements
15:45:04 [cpn]
... The suggestion was, as well as writing notes on how to achieve this, use paired Unicode control characters as a fallback
15:45:26 [cpn]
... Should we add examples of those into DAPT, to show exactly how this is done, nor ot?
15:46:05 [cpn]
... Let's do a poll, +1, 0, or -1
15:46:12 [MattS]
+1
15:46:26 [atsushi]
+1
15:46:33 [MattS]
(I always think it's good to illustrate stuff)
15:46:55 [nigel]
s/-1/-1 where positive = yes add examples, negative means do not, zero means "don't care"
15:47:04 [nigel]
-1
15:47:13 [cpn]
0
15:47:42 [cpn]
Gary: it sounds like this is a pattern we don't want to encourage
15:48:10 [cpn]
... If we don't want people to use it unless they have to, I'd lean towards not documenting it, as documenting it would lead more people to doing it
15:48:21 [MattS]
q+
15:48:27 [nigel]
ack MattS
15:48:30 [cpn]
Nigel: A method for bidirectional text is required, so the question is whether to give an example
15:49:08 [cpn]
Matt: Examples are always good. It's hard to know what is meant when there's just text. And we find many suppliers don't get XML, so having something unambigious is good
15:49:24 [cpn]
... I've found suppliers asking for examples
15:49:52 [cpn]
Andreas: This is a general issue and if we do examples than may be should to in a separate note.
15:50:06 [cpn]
Matt: I'd second that
15:50:24 [pal]
+1
15:50:32 [gkatsev]
+1
15:50:57 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Net vote in TTWG call 2023-08-03 is in favour of adding examples.
15:51:11 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2023 Planning
15:51:47 [cpn]
Nigel: I haven't listed the meeting and joint meetings, and haven't done a lot on the agendas
15:53:06 [nigel]
Chris: I need to have a look too. From the MEIG perspective we have a 45 minute slot on the Monday
15:53:08 [nigel]
.. morning.
15:53:29 [nigel]
Nigel: I think we need to use that to talk about IMSC-HRM and DAPT.
15:53:48 [nigel]
Chris: I think there was a suggestion (from Gary?) to talk about the Text Track API
15:54:08 [cpn]
i/Chris/Nigel: Won't have time until end of August to summarise and put in one place, so if someone wants to volunteer? I welcome suggestions for other topics/
15:55:05 [cpn]
Gary: Yes, we did talk about it, but I probably won't attend
15:55:33 [nigel]
Chris: Happy to include it if someone wants to present or drive that discussion
15:57:26 [cpn]
Topic: Using the ITU BT.2100 PQ EOTF with the PNG Format
15:57:26 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/png-hdr-pq/ Using the ITU BT.2100 PQ EOTF with the PNG Format
15:57:26 [cpn]
Pierre: This WG Note was approved in 2017. At time there was no way to carry PQ encoded images in PNG
15:57:26 [cpn]
... The Note reflected industry practice, which was to write PQ or HLG pixels and signal use of non-SRGB pixels in PNG
15:57:30 [cpn]
... There's a PNG 3rd Edition coming soon, with native signalling for HDR pixels, PQ and HLG
15:57:46 [cpn]
... An issue was filed by Chris Lilley
15:58:35 [cpn]
Pierre: I think this WG needs to review the PR, which deprecates the Note, essentially: https://github.com/w3c/png-hdr-pq/pull/13
15:58:49 [cpn]
... There's no way in the Process to obsolete a Note
15:58:53 [nigel]
https://github.com/w3c/png-hdr-pq/pull/13
15:59:00 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/png-hdr-pq/pull/13
15:59:07 [cpn]
... Give a month for review?
15:59:16 [cpn]
Nigel: Thank you for calling our attention to this
15:59:31 [cpn]
... I have no objection to deprecating if it's no longer needed
15:59:50 [cpn]
Pierre: There are files out there that use it, but makes sense to deprecate for new files
16:00:22 [cpn]
Nigel: Versioning
16:01:08 [cpn]
Pierre: Systems use the magic string. For new systems, the recommendation is to use the new signalling capabilities in PNG which new implementations can look for
16:01:56 [cpn]
... We can't remove the document because of existing usage
16:01:59 [cpn]
Nigel: Makes sense
16:02:00 [nigel]
SUMMARY: TTWG alerted to the need to review this pull request
16:02:13 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
16:02:35 [cpn]
Nigel: Next meeting is not in 2 weeks time, instead it's August 31
16:02:47 [cpn]
... Have a good 4 weeks!
16:04:21 [nigel]
Atsushi: Don't forget to register for TPAC if you're attending, and book hotel rooms etc.
16:04:51 [nigel]
everyone expresses warm wishes to each other over the short summer break
16:05:09 [nigel]
Nigel: Let's adjourn for today. Thanks again Chris for scribing. [adjourns meeting]
16:05:38 [nigel]
s/Versioning/Presumably there's versioning information in the PNG, and people using older versions still need to reference this Note?
16:05:47 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:17:00 [nigel]
s/or add something ??/or add other values to the enumeration
16:18:54 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:23:01 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:23:05 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:23:05 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Gary, Pierre, Nigel, Chris, Atsushi, Matt
16:23:07 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:23:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:23:44 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:23:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:24:18 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:24:18 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items