14:59:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:59:54 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-irc
15:00:49 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230803T120000/
15:00:49 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:00:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe)
15:00:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last two week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:00:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Brainstorming: “What still needs to be done” (Ora)
15:00:50 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
15:00:53 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
15:00:55 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:01:10 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star Weekly Meeting
15:01:22 <TallTed> present+
15:01:33 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:01:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:01:43 <TallTed> Zakim, start meeting
15:01:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:01:45 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), TallTed
15:21:12 <TallTed> no-one else has joined zoom, so I'm aborting/adjourning...
15:21:17 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
15:21:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TallTed
15:21:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:21:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
15:21:25 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:21:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
15:21:31 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
15:21:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:54:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:54:52 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-irc
15:54:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-star
15:55:21 <ktk> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230803T120000/
15:55:22 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:55:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe)
15:55:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last two week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:55:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Brainstorming: “What still needs to be done” (Ora)
15:55:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
15:55:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
15:55:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:55:53 <ktk> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:26 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:59:33 <ktk> Chair+
15:59:39 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:59:41 <ktk> p+
15:59:46 <ktk> present+
15:59:53 <ktk> RRSAgent, bookmark
15:59:53 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-irc#T15-59-53
15:59:54 <pchampin> present+
15:59:55 <AndyS> present+
16:00:33 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:00:41 <gtw> present+
16:00:43 <gkellogg> present+
16:00:47 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:01:46 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:01:52 <ktk> Timothe: around?
16:01:57 <Enrico> Enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:02:03 <pfps> present+
16:02:05 <Enrico> Present+
16:02:42 <ktk> ll
16:03:03 <niklasl> present+
16:03:25 <richard-lea> richard-lea has joined #rdf-star
16:04:07 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
16:04:17 <ktk> open item 1
16:04:33 <Tpt> present+
16:04:33 <ktk> close item 1
16:04:39 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:04:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approval of last two week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:01 <AndyS> ktk: Last week only 6 so we didn't accept the minutes.
16:05:18 <AndyS> ... this week we'll look at 2 weeks worth of minutes
16:05:56 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2023-07-20
16:05:56 <pfps> +1
16:05:56 <gkellogg> +1
16:05:56 <pchampin> +1
16:05:56 <niklasl> +1
16:05:57 <AndyS> +1
16:05:58 <ktk> <ktk> +1
16:06:02 <Tpt> +1
16:06:28 <Enrico> +1
16:06:31 <AndyS> RESOLVED: Accept the minutes of 2023-07-20
16:07:06 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes
16:07:15 <gkellogg> https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:07:19 <gkellogg> +1
16:07:22 <niklasl> +0
16:07:22 <pchampin> +0
16:07:25 <ktk> <ktk> +1
16:07:30 <AndyS> +1
16:08:01 <pfps> +1
16:08:01 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve last week's minutes
16:08:09 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:08:09 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Brainstorming: “What still needs to be done” (Ora) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:08:13 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:08:21 <Souri> present+
16:08:32 <richard-lea> present+
16:09:06 <AndyS> ktk: skip this brainstorming item (TPAC prep)
16:09:16 <AndyS> ... until next week.
16:09:29 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:09:29 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -- taken up [from 2]
16:10:31 <AndyS> gkellogg: I have completed my action.
16:11:23 <pchampin> gb, status
16:11:26 <gb> pchampin, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer
16:11:26 <gb> … https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml https://github.com/w3c/sparql-concepts
16:11:26 <gb> … https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment https://github.com/w3c/sparql-federated-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-new https://github.com/w3c/sparql-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv
16:11:28 <gb> … https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json
16:11:36 <AndyS> ... some issues with the GH support bot.
16:12:06 <gkellogg> close w3c/rdf-star-wg#79
16:12:08 <gb> Closed -> action #79 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/79
16:12:38 <gkellogg> #100
16:12:38 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/issues/100 -> Issue 100 [not found]
16:13:03 <gkellogg> s/#100//
16:13:03 <gb> https://github.com/s//issues/100 -> #100
16:14:00 <AndyS> gkellogg: Minutes were cleaned up for the git-bot confusion by TallTed
16:14:31 <AndyS> pchampin: Will take an action to put the WG repo first.
16:15:30 <AndyS> ... github hiccup on actions should be fixed
16:15:37 <ktk> q?
16:16:20 <AndyS> ... transfer of the rdf-tests ongoing
16:16:29 <ktk> regret+ Ora
16:16:50 <AndyS> gkellogg: Some activity in the tests so would be good if PRs showed up on the WG dashboard.
16:17:18 <AndyS> pchampin: Will connect the tests repo to the dashboard
16:17:33 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:17:33 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 3]
16:18:05 <gkellogg> q+
16:18:20 <AndyS> ktk: From next week, we will include "needs discussion" PRs in the agenda
16:19:01 <pfps> q+
16:19:08 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:19:13 <AndyS> gkellogg: base direction - have separated out langtag issues. Ready to merge.
16:19:17 <ktk> ack pfps
16:19:31 <AndyS> pfps: Were we waiting for i18n?
16:19:36 <richard-lea> Excuse me, perhaps lacking a little background stuffs. Wondering that all other repositories starting with rdf- are also currently accounted as contribution from rdf-star? I was assuming rdf-star-wg is the contribition place.
16:19:56 <AndyS> gkellogg: I believe we meet the minimum requirement.
16:20:38 <AndyS> ktk: With the split, I thought we could merge.
16:21:12 <AndyS> pfps: I would prefer to wait for i18n.
16:21:24 <pchampin> https://w3c.github.io/rdf-dir-literal/#datatype
16:21:51 <pchampin> s|https://w3c.github.io/rdf-dir-literal/#datatype|https://w3c.github.io/rdf-dir-literal/
16:21:52 <AndyS> gkellogg: We have direction from JSON-LD and we are addressing a concern.
16:21:54 <ktk> richard-lea: I can say something about that in the next issue if ok for you
16:22:42 <pchampin> q+
16:22:43 <AndyS> ... getting base direction feature in is a starting point. There may be further work as later PRs.
16:22:58 <pfps> q+
16:23:44 <richard-lea> ktk:  Got it. That would be helpful I believe.
16:23:44 <AndyS> pchampin: Link to previous note on the subject for JSON-LD + i18n discussions.
16:23:47 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:24:03 <ktk> ack pfps
16:24:31 <AndyS> pfps: Concerned that previous work had several solution, one of which was complete.
16:24:38 <AndyS> q+
16:25:18 <gkellogg> q+
16:25:41 <AndyS> pfps: There is a complex json-ld datatype includes the ability to reverse the direction of string inside strings.
16:25:48 <AndyS> ack me
16:25:48 <Tpt> JSON-LD CompoundLiteral:  https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11/#the-rdf-compoundliteral-class-and-the-rdf-language-and-rdf-direction-properties
16:26:18 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:26:52 <AndyS> gkellogg: Two informative solutions worked within RDF 1.1. One a compound datatype, one a compound literal with blank node.
16:27:33 <niklasl> q+
16:27:52 <ktk> ack niklasl
16:27:54 <AndyS> ... JSON-LD data model itself would handle it. The compound literal is like reifications - JOSN-LD would make it one unit.
16:28:39 <AndyS> niklasl: interested in reification of literals in general.
16:28:59 <richard-lea> AndyS: Is there a github issue where we can see the problem from complex data-type along with simple sample snippets? The i18n in json-ld is exactly mattering in my daily japanese usage context.
16:29:13 <AndyS> ... RDF could define a relationship between simple (current) literals and compound literals.
16:30:03 <pchampin> +1, none of the solutions proposed in the JSON-LD allowed more than setting a *base* direction. None of them allowed to specify direction changes inside the strings, which IIUC is what pfps considers "complete".
16:30:19 <AndyS> ... library context requires structured literals.
16:31:05 <AndyS> ... is it possible to discuss this in the WG?
16:31:48 <AndyS> s/JOSN/JSON/
16:32:29 <AndyS> richard-lee: is there a place that discusses the issues?
16:33:28 <AndyS> gkellogg: There were discussion in JSON-LD WG and in JSON-LD spec.
16:35:01 <AndyS> richard-lee: where is the discussion for JSON-LD?
16:35:15 <pchampin> guidance from the i18n group has also been captured here: https://www.w3.org/TR/string-meta/
16:35:19 <AndyS> gkellogg: Issues and meeting minutes - digging needed!
16:35:53 <AndyS> q+
16:36:41 <AndyS> gkellogg: json-ld has a compound value object ... need mapping to RDF.
16:38:17 <AndyS> ... compound literals may present some challenges for developers.
16:38:22 <ktk> scribe+
16:38:58 <ktk> AndyS: Within this WG we are not claiming that anything is a complete solution for y18n of text. We look for the minimum to enable people. We have to find out what this minimum is.
16:39:15 <ktk> ... I propose people open issues and describe what a solution might be. Like this we have them side by side.
16:39:42 <ktk> ... otherwise those ideas get lost outside of the discussions here.
16:39:57 <ktk> gkellogg: There are several issues about text direction.
16:40:19 <ktk> AndyS: The ones in the wiki were not complete.
16:40:36 <ktk> ... they had the input from all that participated in the discussion.
16:40:46 <ktk> ... We should work on those.
16:41:02 <ktk> ... Some will require a change in RDF, others do not. Compound literals do not.
16:41:39 <richard-lea> It would be also helpful for my side that we can see the discussion point through explicitly opened issues, especially with minimum example code snippet.
16:41:48 <ktk> ... This will come back to the working group at some point where we have to define how much is in the WGs scope.
16:41:54 <ktk> q?
16:41:56 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:41:59 <AndyS> ackme
16:41:59 <niklasl> q+
16:42:07 <ktk> ack niklasl
16:42:24 <ktk> niklasl: I agree with AndyS, I should do an issue about it.
16:43:10 <ktk> ... I have some comments on the JSON-LD approach.
16:43:35 <ktk> AndyS: the current proposal is not about the JSON-LD datatype
16:44:14 <pchampin> q+
16:44:15 <ktk> gkellogg: The RDF Concepts PR makes a change to the definition of literals. It adds a base-direction element.
16:44:31 <ktk> ... the JSON-LD mechanisms were a workaround as non of these concepts existed in RDF.
16:44:42 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
16:44:48 <ktk> scribe-
16:45:20 <AndyS> gkellogg: we address the issue fundamentally or defer (which may be forever).
16:45:40 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:45:42 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/TR/string-meta/#bp-use_jsonld_i18n_namespace
16:46:02 <AndyS> pchampin: Put a like in  https://www.w3.org/TR/string-meta/ -- now recommending uses of JSON-LD namepsace.
16:46:43 <AndyS> ... I take this as a sign that langtag+basedirection is a minimum and for e.g. HTML literals for compound (displayable) text.
16:46:57 <AndyS> ... this is a recent update.
16:47:28 <niklasl> q+
16:47:39 <AndyS> ... not advocating the i18n namespace for RDF 1.2 (it was a solution to be within RDF 1.1)
16:48:31 <gkellogg> q+
16:48:39 <pchampin> s/Put a like/Put a link
16:48:40 <ktk> ack niklasl
16:48:49 <AndyS> niklasl: we use langtags and get many, many uses. i18n datatype needs to be / not # to allow structure.
16:48:53 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:48:55 <pchampin> s/JSON-LD namespace/KSON-LD i18n namespace
16:49:27 <AndyS> gkellogg: The i18n recommendation is "current best practice". RDF1.2 can pursue a better solution.
16:49:31 <pchampin> +1 gkellogg, I take it as the "direction" (pun intended? :->) to use nothing more
16:49:59 <AndyS> ... other issue - namespaces - lack of normalization of language tags. (lower case).
16:50:01 <AndyS> q+
16:50:35 <AndyS> gkellogg: ... impacts RDF Canon.
16:51:07 <pchampin> I was mostly considering it as a signal that the PR 48 is on the right path, compared to i18n group's best practices
16:51:09 <AndyS> ... impact datatype solutions.
16:51:10 <niklasl> q+
16:51:17 <AndyS> ack me
16:51:40 <AndyS> ack niklasl
16:52:44 <pchampin> q+
16:53:08 <AndyS> ack pchampin
16:53:39 <AndyS> pchampin: was responding to PFPS with background and history.
16:54:05 <AndyS> ktk: Are we formally asking for feedback?
16:54:24 <AndyS> ktk: Yes - it's marked with a label as requested
16:55:10 <AndyS> gkellogg: this is a PR for a long time becomes a general block (PR merges etc)
16:55:26 <AndyS> ... else we should wait until feed and park the issue
16:55:27 <AndyS> q+
16:56:02 <AndyS> ktk: I will organise discussion with chairs and W3C staff.
16:56:12 <AndyS> q-
16:56:40 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:56:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:57:20 <AndyS> ktk: Thanks everyone.
16:58:46 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:58:52 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/08/10-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:59:07 <AndyS> s/richard-lee/richard-lea/
16:59:17 <pchampin> s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/issues/100 -> Issue 100 [not found]|
16:59:41 <pchampin> s|https://github.com/s//issues/100 -> #100|
16:59:42 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/issues/100 -> Issue 100 [not found]
16:59:45 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:59:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:02:13 <ktk> richard-lea: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new
17:07:15 <pchampin> RRSAgent, bye
17:07:15 <RRSAgent> I see no action items