IRC log of aria-dive on 2023-08-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:03:27 [RRSAgent]
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16:03:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-dive-irc
16:03:32 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:03:33 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:03:36 [Adam_Page]
scribe: Adam_Page
16:05:58 [spectranaut_]
meeting: ARIA deep dive - further use cases for aria-modal
16:08:01 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA deep dive - Further use cases for aria-modal
16:08:52 [Jem]
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16:09:12 [Adam_Page]
scotto: today’s convo is scoped to https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1950
16:09:25 [Adam_Page]
... this is also related to an `aria-hidden` issue I filed
16:09:38 [Matt_King]
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16:10:00 [Jem]
present+ JaeunJemmaKu
16:10:03 [Adam_Page]
... aria-modal is currently mostly used just for dialogs, alert dialogs, etc.
16:10:31 [Adam_Page]
... with values of true and false, where even if it’s false, there can still be some light virtual cursor trapping by some AT
16:11:08 [Adam_Page]
... related to the work we’ve been doing on popovers — for tooltips, notes, dialogs, menus, listboxes — there seems to be some overlap, where aria-modal behavior might make sense
16:11:26 [Adam_Page]
... in the Open UI WG there’s been a lot of talk about making more robust listboxes
16:11:42 [Adam_Page]
... where people want to add rich descriptions, as an example
16:11:57 [Adam_Page]
... people also want to put interactive elements inside, like links and buttons, etc.
16:12:45 [Adam_Page]
... might it make sense to have some partial trapping to allow for easy navigation to the top and bottom of these elements
16:13:06 [Adam_Page]
... so that’s the high-level
16:13:43 [StefanS]
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16:13:48 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: I recently wrote about the language we use and should use when talking about modality and related concepts
16:13:51 [StefanS]
q?
16:13:57 [Adam_Page]
present+
16:14:04 [StefanS]
present+
16:14:13 [scotto]
present+
16:14:24 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: in particular, I proposed that there are essentially 3 boundary renderings that happen in all screen readers
16:14:35 [Adam_Page]
... porous, solid, and invisible
16:14:51 [Adam_Page]
... porous: the way we typically render a region or a list
16:15:04 [Adam_Page]
... invisible: like a paragraph, we don’t convey the boundary
16:15:26 [Adam_Page]
solid: with dialogs or windows, with a normal reading command, you’ll bump into a boundary
16:16:02 [Adam_Page]
s/solid:/... solid:/
16:16:24 [jamesn]
q?
16:17:11 [Adam_Page]
scotto: I see potential for two versions of modality: things are fully inert and you shouldn’t be able to get to it, and a second version that allows a “door” to get to the rest of the content
16:18:02 [Adam_Page]
Glen_Gordon: there’s the new Microsoft Outlook online which will likely replace Windows Outlook, and we’re trying to simulate the Windows experience of “trapping” people inside a message
16:18:28 [Adam_Page]
... would be helpful to have a modal “clue” to support this
16:18:48 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: Yes, ARIA should say something about boundaries
16:19:35 [Adam_Page]
... in that case, couldn’t the message be a non-modal dialog, in ARIA terms?
16:19:48 [Adam_Page]
Glen_Gordon: I don’t want the user to be able to wander out
16:20:19 [spectranaut_]
q+ roberto
16:22:04 [scotto]
q+
16:22:44 [StefanS]
q+
16:22:51 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: “solid” can be both modal and non-modal — there’s a “wall” in both cases, but in the non-modal case you can jump over the wall and get to content outside
16:23:00 [jamesn]
q+ Brett
16:23:44 [Adam_Page]
Roberto_Perez: there are some of these boundaries and modalities which are determined by the AT
16:23:44 [Adam_Page]
... depending on heurisitics
16:23:46 [jamesn]
ack rob
16:24:08 [Adam_Page]
... NVDA will trap the virtual cursor inside a dialog, whether it’s modal or non-modal, for example
16:24:12 [Adam_Page]
... the problem where I’m concerned is authors
16:24:56 [jamesn]
qv?
16:24:58 [Adam_Page]
... authors might misuse dialogs or explicitly hide content from AT too often / inappropriately
16:25:41 [Adam_Page]
... ATs and users should have the ultimate choice
16:25:49 [jamesn]
ack scotto
16:28:48 [Adam_Page]
scotto: dropdowns are an example of light modality — the user is lightly trapped inside its popover list, but they can still tab out of it
16:28:49 [jamesn]
ack Brett
16:29:21 [Adam_Page]
Brett: what concerns me about labeling too many things as “dialog” is setting user expectations
16:29:27 [Adam_Page]
... to hear it too often will be confusing
16:29:44 [Adam_Page]
... I do like the idea of being able to extend modality to multiple things, but they shouldn’t all be called “dialog”
16:29:46 [jamesn]
ack StefanS
16:29:52 [jamesn]
qv?
16:30:39 [jamesn]
q+
16:30:55 [scotto]
disagree with a new role. because that would just swap out using "dialog" everywhere inplace of whatever this new role would be.
16:30:59 [Matt_King]
q?
16:31:04 [Matt_King]
q+
16:31:18 [aaronlev]
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16:31:25 [aaronlev]
q+
16:31:25 [jamesn]
ack me
16:32:29 [jamesn]
ack Matt_King
16:33:06 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: with aria-modal, we could have values of true, false, and mixed
16:33:22 [scotto]
aria-modal=porous ;)
16:33:26 [Adam_Page]
... where “mixed” could mean this container has a solid boundary that you can jump over
16:33:55 [scotto]
q+
16:34:18 [jamesn]
ack aa
16:34:57 [Adam_Page]
aaronlev: I surveyed a dozen users, and one thing that users complained about most was getting lost — that web apps don’t act like native apps in that way
16:35:34 [Adam_Page]
... maybe we should consider other names and get away from aria-modal: something like aria-boundary, aria-island
16:35:51 [Adam_Page]
... sometimes you just want to decorate a container to say that the user should be kept inside
16:36:42 [jamesn]
ack scotto
16:36:42 [Matt_King]
q+
16:36:48 [Adam_Page]
scotto: agree with all of that
16:37:23 [Adam_Page]
... I do like the idea of moving away from aria-modal, maybe creating a synonym attribute since it does have some overlap, but it could be a better name to indicate that it’s not just for modals
16:37:38 [jamesn]
q+ to ask if we have ever had a synonym attribute before
16:38:02 [Adam_Page]
... re: concerns about misuse, and this is more related to the aria-hidden topic, a lot of the a11y APIs with modals is that the tree isn’t pruned
16:38:12 [Adam_Page]
... in Webkit, it _is_ pruned
16:38:24 [Adam_Page]
... but in Windows, it is marked as hidden, but it still exists in the a11y tree
16:38:38 [Adam_Page]
... which allows for an escape hatch in cases of author misuse
16:38:57 [jamesn]
q+ to ask how dialog works on macOS vs Windows
16:39:06 [jamesn]
ack Matt_King
16:39:17 [jamesn]
qv?
16:40:41 [Adam_Page]
q+
16:40:41 [jamesn]
ack me
16:40:44 [Zakim]
jamesn, you wanted to ask if we have ever had a synonym attribute before and to ask how dialog works on macOS vs Windows
16:40:49 [scotto]
implicit boundaries is what i was just thinking. defining those and using 'implicit' as a token / default value
16:44:46 [jamesn]
q?
16:48:00 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: in ARIA, we could just say that the “dialog” role always means it’s modal
16:48:02 [scotto]
q+
16:48:17 [Adam_Page]
... and then add another role, like “panel” or “window”
16:49:33 [jamesn]
ack Adam_Page
16:49:42 [jamesn]
q+ roberto
16:50:25 [jamesn]
ack scotto
16:51:06 [Matt_King]
q+
16:51:16 [Adam_Page]
scotto: I’m hesitant to adding a new role
16:51:32 [jamesn]
q- rob
16:51:40 [jamesn]
ack Matt_King
16:51:57 [jamesn]
q+ to ask what are the next steps
16:53:42 [jamesn]
ack me
16:53:42 [Zakim]
jamesn, you wanted to ask what are the next steps
16:54:15 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: I think the main problem can be solved with a new attribute like aria-mixed, but it could still be useful to have an HTML element or role that is implicitly aria-modal=false
16:54:41 [Adam_Page]
scotto: I could work with Matt_King on something like aria-modal=mixed
16:55:03 [Adam_Page]
... maybe some elements could have aria-modal=mixed as implicit
16:55:27 [Adam_Page]
aaronlev: we’re gonna need clearer language than “modal”, especially for ESL authors
16:56:12 [Adam_Page]
Matt_King: I’d like to explore whether it’s even sensible to permit the concept of a non-modal “dialog”
16:57:20 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: let’s not worry about naming for now, but make progress on the underlying concepts
16:57:37 [Adam_Page]
scotto: I can take a crack at extending `aria-modal`, acknowledging that we might change the name later to make it more understandable
16:57:41 [spectranaut_]
matt's essay on modal dialogs: https://gist.github.com/mcking65/11882ebbe2889964c62ab5a16ab528c3
16:58:36 [Adam_Page]
zakim, end meeting
16:58:36 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been JaeunJemmaKu, Adam_Page, StefanS, scotto
16:58:38 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:58:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-dive-minutes.html Zakim
16:58:46 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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