16:03:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-dive
16:03:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-dive-irc
16:03:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:03:33 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:03:36 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
16:05:58 <spectranaut_> meeting: ARIA deep dive - further use cases for aria-modal
16:08:01 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA deep dive - Further use cases for aria-modal
16:08:52 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-dive
16:09:12 <Adam_Page> scotto: today’s convo is scoped to https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1950
16:09:25 <Adam_Page> ... this is also related to an `aria-hidden` issue I filed
16:09:38 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-dive
16:10:00 <Jem> present+ JaeunJemmaKu
16:10:03 <Adam_Page> ... aria-modal is currently mostly used just for dialogs, alert dialogs, etc.
16:10:31 <Adam_Page> ... with values of true and false, where even if it’s false, there can still be some light virtual cursor trapping by some AT
16:11:08 <Adam_Page> ... related to the work we’ve been doing on popovers — for tooltips, notes, dialogs, menus, listboxes — there seems to be some overlap, where aria-modal behavior might make sense
16:11:26 <Adam_Page> ... in the Open UI WG there’s been a lot of talk about making more robust listboxes
16:11:42 <Adam_Page> ... where people want to add rich descriptions, as an example
16:11:57 <Adam_Page> ... people also want to put interactive elements inside, like links and buttons, etc.
16:12:45 <Adam_Page> ... might it make sense to have some partial trapping to allow for easy navigation to the top and bottom of these elements
16:13:06 <Adam_Page> ... so that’s the high-level
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16:13:48 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: I recently wrote about the language we use and should use when talking about modality and related concepts
16:13:51 <StefanS> q?
16:13:57 <Adam_Page> present+
16:14:04 <StefanS> present+
16:14:13 <scotto> present+
16:14:24 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: in particular, I proposed that there are essentially 3 boundary renderings that happen in all screen readers
16:14:35 <Adam_Page> ...  porous, solid, and invisible
16:14:51 <Adam_Page> ... porous: the way we typically render a region or a list
16:15:04 <Adam_Page> ... invisible: like a paragraph, we don’t convey the boundary
16:15:26 <Adam_Page> solid: with dialogs or windows, with a normal reading command, you’ll bump into a boundary
16:16:02 <Adam_Page> s/solid:/... solid:/
16:16:24 <jamesn> q?
16:17:11 <Adam_Page> scotto: I see potential for two versions of modality: things are fully inert and you shouldn’t be able to get to it, and a second version that allows a “door” to get to the rest of the content
16:18:02 <Adam_Page> Glen_Gordon: there’s the new Microsoft Outlook online which will likely replace Windows Outlook, and we’re trying to simulate the Windows experience of “trapping” people inside a message
16:18:28 <Adam_Page> ... would be helpful to have a modal “clue” to support this
16:18:48 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: Yes, ARIA should say something about boundaries
16:19:35 <Adam_Page> ... in that case, couldn’t the message be a non-modal dialog, in ARIA terms?
16:19:48 <Adam_Page> Glen_Gordon: I don’t want the user to be able to wander out
16:20:19 <spectranaut_> q+ roberto
16:22:04 <scotto> q+
16:22:44 <StefanS> q+
16:22:51 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: “solid” can be both modal and non-modal — there’s a “wall” in both cases, but in the non-modal case you can jump over the wall and get to content outside
16:23:00 <jamesn> q+ Brett
16:23:44 <Adam_Page> Roberto_Perez: there are some of these boundaries and modalities which are determined by the AT
16:23:44 <Adam_Page> ... depending on heurisitics
16:23:46 <jamesn> ack rob
16:24:08 <Adam_Page> ... NVDA will trap the virtual cursor inside a dialog, whether it’s modal or non-modal, for example
16:24:12 <Adam_Page> ... the problem where I’m concerned is authors
16:24:56 <jamesn> qv?
16:24:58 <Adam_Page> ... authors might misuse dialogs or explicitly hide content from AT too often / inappropriately
16:25:41 <Adam_Page> ... ATs and users should have the ultimate choice
16:25:49 <jamesn> ack scotto
16:28:48 <Adam_Page> scotto: dropdowns are an example of light modality — the user is lightly trapped inside its popover list, but they can still tab out of it
16:28:49 <jamesn> ack Brett
16:29:21 <Adam_Page> Brett: what concerns me about labeling too many things as “dialog” is setting user expectations
16:29:27 <Adam_Page> ... to hear it too often will be confusing
16:29:44 <Adam_Page> ... I do like the idea of being able to extend modality to multiple things, but they shouldn’t all be called “dialog”
16:29:46 <jamesn> ack StefanS
16:29:52 <jamesn> qv?
16:30:39 <jamesn> q+
16:30:55 <scotto> disagree with a new role.  because that would just swap out using "dialog" everywhere inplace of whatever this new role would be.
16:30:59 <Matt_King> q?
16:31:04 <Matt_King> q+
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16:31:25 <aaronlev> q+
16:31:25 <jamesn> ack me
16:32:29 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
16:33:06 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: with aria-modal, we could have values of true, false, and mixed
16:33:22 <scotto> aria-modal=porous ;)
16:33:26 <Adam_Page> ... where “mixed” could mean this container has a solid boundary that you can jump over
16:33:55 <scotto> q+
16:34:18 <jamesn> ack aa
16:34:57 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: I surveyed a dozen users, and one thing that users complained about most was getting lost — that web apps don’t act like native apps in that way
16:35:34 <Adam_Page> ... maybe we should consider other names and get away from aria-modal: something like aria-boundary, aria-island
16:35:51 <Adam_Page> ... sometimes you just want to decorate a container to say that the user should be kept inside
16:36:42 <jamesn> ack scotto
16:36:42 <Matt_King> q+
16:36:48 <Adam_Page> scotto: agree with all of that
16:37:23 <Adam_Page> ... I do like the idea of moving away from aria-modal, maybe creating a synonym attribute since it does have some overlap, but it could be a better name to indicate that it’s not just for modals
16:37:38 <jamesn> q+ to ask if we have ever had a synonym attribute before
16:38:02 <Adam_Page> ... re: concerns about misuse, and this is more related to the aria-hidden topic, a lot of the a11y APIs with modals is that the tree isn’t pruned
16:38:12 <Adam_Page> ... in Webkit, it _is_ pruned
16:38:24 <Adam_Page> ... but in Windows, it is marked as hidden, but it still exists in the a11y tree
16:38:38 <Adam_Page> ... which allows for an escape hatch in cases of author misuse
16:38:57 <jamesn> q+ to ask how dialog works on macOS vs Windows
16:39:06 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
16:39:17 <jamesn> qv?
16:40:41 <Adam_Page> q+
16:40:41 <jamesn> ack me
16:40:44 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask if we have ever had a synonym attribute before and to ask how dialog works on macOS vs Windows
16:40:49 <scotto> implicit boundaries is what i was just thinking.  defining those and using 'implicit' as a token / default value
16:44:46 <jamesn> q?
16:48:00 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: in ARIA, we could just say that the “dialog” role always means it’s modal
16:48:02 <scotto> q+
16:48:17 <Adam_Page> ... and then add another role, like “panel” or “window”
16:49:33 <jamesn> ack Adam_Page
16:49:42 <jamesn> q+ roberto
16:50:25 <jamesn> ack scotto
16:51:06 <Matt_King> q+
16:51:16 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’m hesitant to adding a new role
16:51:32 <jamesn> q- rob
16:51:40 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
16:51:57 <jamesn> q+ to ask what are the next steps
16:53:42 <jamesn> ack me
16:53:42 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask what are the next steps
16:54:15 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: I think the main problem can be solved with a new attribute like aria-mixed, but it could still be useful to have an HTML element or role that is implicitly aria-modal=false
16:54:41 <Adam_Page> scotto: I could work with Matt_King on something like aria-modal=mixed
16:55:03 <Adam_Page> ... maybe some elements could have aria-modal=mixed as implicit
16:55:27 <Adam_Page> aaronlev: we’re gonna need clearer language than “modal”, especially for ESL authors
16:56:12 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: I’d like to explore whether it’s even sensible to permit the concept of a non-modal “dialog”
16:57:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s not worry about naming for now, but make progress on the underlying concepts
16:57:37 <Adam_Page> scotto: I can take a crack at extending `aria-modal`, acknowledging that we might change the name later to make it more understandable
16:57:41 <spectranaut_> matt's essay on modal dialogs: https://gist.github.com/mcking65/11882ebbe2889964c62ab5a16ab528c3
16:58:36 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
16:58:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JaeunJemmaKu, Adam_Page, StefanS, scotto
16:58:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:58:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-dive-minutes.html Zakim
16:58:46 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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