15:52:56 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star 15:53:00 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-irc 15:54:10 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230727T120000/ 15:54:10 clear agenda 15:54:10 agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe) 15:54:10 agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:54:10 agenda+ Update on Semantic TF (unless Enrico sends regerets) 15:54:11 agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 15:54:14 agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 15:54:17 agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting 15:54:25 Chair: ktk 15:54:34 Regret+ Ora 15:54:45 Zakim, draft minutes 15:54:45 I don't understand 'draft minutes', ktk 15:55:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:56:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk 15:56:06 AndyS has joined #rdf-star 15:56:21 gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star 15:56:44 start meeting 15:57:58 gkellogg has joined #rdf-star 15:58:19 RRSAgent, make minutes public 15:58:19 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ktk. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:58:29 Zakim, make minutes public 15:58:30 I don't understand 'make minutes public', ktk 15:59:03 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:59:39 regrets+ gwilliams 15:59:52 regrets+ nlindström 16:00:04 regrets+ pchampin 16:00:09 regrets+ ttp 16:00:24 s/nlindström/niklasl/ 16:00:50 present+ 16:00:54 present+ 16:01:01 present+ 16:01:18 scribe+ gkellogg 16:01:58 zakim, next agendum 16:01:58 agendum 1 -- Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe) -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:02:07 zakim, close item 1 16:02:07 agendum 1, Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe), closed 16:02:09 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:02:09 2. Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot] 16:02:21 pfps has joined #rdf-star 16:02:29 present+ 16:02:29 zakim, open item 2 16:02:29 agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:02:31 present+ 16:02:44 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:02:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:02:56 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:05:08 AndyS: Perhaps we can get updates from task forces? 16:05:18 Souri_ has joined #rdf-star 16:05:31 ktk: We don't have enough people present to approve minutes this week. 16:05:34 present+ 16:05:42 zakim, next agendum 16:05:42 agendum 3 -- Update on Semantic TF (unless Enrico sends regerets) -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:06:17 pfps: We're having informal meetings with minimal logging in the semantics TF. 16:06:39 ... There are a number of semantic proposals, and Enrico has an outline of how to characterize them. 16:06:56 ... They're in the rdf-star-wg repository, but unofficial. 16:07:17 ... The semantics TF is waiting for decisions on which use cases will be supported, so we know how they should behave. 16:07:39 ... The default is that the semantics would be have in away consistent with the use cases. 16:07:50 ... The TF semantics don't seem to work well. 16:07:53 WIP semantics on the wikie: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki 16:08:03 s/wikie/wiki/ 16:08:25 ... Building true semantics can be a pain, as there are several choices to be made, which aren't clear until examined closely. 16:08:48 ... It's worth looking at the proposals. 16:09:51 ... it's easier to write down in a cryptic/terse fashion, and the consequences become documentation. 16:09:51 AndyS: THere's been an ongoing difference between syntactic and semantic notations. 16:10:08 pfps: Good question: can you have a catholic semantics that covers the use cases? 16:10:22 catholic == universal, yes? 16:10:53 ... It's more difficult to have a semantics that covers multiple possibilities. Do we want a single simple semantics or one which has more possibilities? 16:11:06 ... This would have implications for the syntax, which could be problematic. 16:11:29 AndyS: I thought we might end up with two syntaxes, but the worry is how to explain it to people? 16:11:49 pfps: We already have different semantic regimes. 16:11:57 q+ 16:12:15 AndyS: We can discuss different syntactic variations, but it may be difficult for a broader audience to understand. 16:12:20 ack TallTed 16:12:30 TallTed: By "catholic semantics", do you mean "universal"? 16:12:53 pfps: Yes, but I use "catholic" to cover all _reasonable_ alternatives, not all possible alternatives. 16:13:08 s/catholic == universal, yes?// 16:13:32 ... The other thing with discussion is the difference between quoted triples and singleton graphs. 16:13:35 s/possible/_possible_/ 16:13:57 ... There's been a bit of discussion on what should be done. The WG needs to say something, if not just, we're not doing this. 16:14:11 ... I've looked at the new N3 semantics, which I don't fully understand. 16:14:34 ... If quoted triple semantics can be made compatible with N3 is unknown. 16:15:02 ... You can think of a quoted triple as an N3 included graph with a single triple. It might be nice for them to behave the same way. 16:15:23 AndyS: It's a tension between talking about claims and the representation. Is it meaning, or pure quotation? 16:15:53 pfps: The thrust of N3 has been that included graphs are used for implication, but nothing prevents them from being used differently. 16:16:21 ktk: I believe doerte said that the goal is to make N3 compatible with RDF, in some way. 16:16:38 pfps: The question is if there is any reasonable way to make it possible. 16:17:03 zakim, next item 16:17:03 agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:17:32 ktk: no one with an assigned action is present. 16:17:42 ... Ora has something to present next time. 16:17:46 zakim, next agendum 16:17:46 agendum 4 was just opened, gkellogg 16:17:52 zakim, close item 3 16:17:52 agendum 3, Update on Semantic TF (unless Enrico sends regerets), closed 16:17:54 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:17:54 4. Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 [from agendabot] 16:17:58 zakim, open item 4 16:17:58 agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:18:26 zakim, close item 4 16:18:26 agendum 4, Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3, closed 16:18:28 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:18:28 5. Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 [from agendabot] 16:18:31 zakim, open item 5 16:18:31 agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:19:30 pfps: There's been some discussion on whether the base direction contains more than one thing on it, and perhaps the change in direction needs to be pulled out. 16:19:57 q+ 16:19:57 q? 16:21:25 currently whether there is one node or two resulting from "hi"@en and "hi"@EN is underspecified 16:21:25 https://github.com/en -> @en 16:21:25 … https://github.com/EN -> @EN 16:21:31 pfps: the issue is if there is a change of the treatment of language tags in the PR. 16:21:54 ... It's unspecified if "hi"@en is the same as "hi"@EN. 16:22:00 ack AndyS 16:22:18 AndyS: The suggestion is to take that change out of the PR, as it's not related to base direction. 16:22:29 ... It's around line 740 in the PR. 16:23:12 Our current implementation considers "hi"@EN as equivalent to the normalized form "hi"@en. 16:23:21 ... The old text says equal character-by-character, and the new says to normalize. 16:23:55 ... At the moment, the specs say the en and EN give different terms. This goes back to RDF 1.0. 16:24:00 the relevant text in RDF 1.1 Concepts is "A literal is a language-tagged string if the third element is present. Lexical representations of language tags MAY be converted to lower case." 16:24:02 q+ 16:24:26 ... The reason they're the same value, is because RDF entailment uses this. 16:24:38 ack TallTed 16:25:00 TallTed: The issue seems to be that there's a change in implementation behavior if conforming to the new vs old language. 16:25:59 AndyS: The text in the PR around language tag equality is still somewhat complicated. 16:26:15 ... Language tags are otherwise described as "equal values". 16:26:34 TallTed: In the example, the values compared are the same integer, but not the same term. 16:27:32 action: gkellogg to separate out language tag from base direction in w3c/rdf-concepts#48. 16:27:39 Sorry, I don't know what repository to use. 16:28:29 scribe+ 16:28:36 gkellogg: the editorial ones can be merged at this point 16:29:06 ... N-Triples #34 can be merged probably next week 16:29:09 scribe - 16:29:10 scribe- 16:29:13 w3c/rdf-n-triples#34 can wait on w3c/rdf-concepts#36 to be merged. 16:29:13 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/36 -> CLOSED Pull Request 36 FPWD publication snapshot. (by gkellogg) [ms:FPWD] 16:29:13 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/issues/34 -> Pull Request 34 Adds BNF and text to extend LANGTAG to support base direction (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive] 16:29:19 gb, status 16:29:19 TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and no repositories are specified. 16:29:39 AndyS: I didn't get to the media-type changes quite yet. Waiting on Ruben. 16:29:50 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:29:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk 16:31:13 AndyS: The ones on the space character needed some resolution. 16:33:04 gkellogg: may need privacy considerations on semantics and schema. 16:33:13 zakim, next agendum 16:33:13 agendum 6 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:33:44 gb, use w3c/rdf-star-wg, w3c/rdf-concepts, w3c/rdf-n-triples, w3c/rdf-n-quads, w3c/rdf-common, w3c/rdf-new, w3c/rdf-primer, w3c/rdf-schema, w3c/rdf-semantics, w3c/rdf-trig, w3c/rdf-turtle, w3c/rdf-ucr, w3c/rdf-xml, w3c/sparql-concepts, w3c/sparql-entailment, w3c/sparql-federated-query, w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol, w3c/sparql-new, w3c/sparql-protocol, w3c/sparql-query, w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv, w3c/sparql-results-json, 16:33:44 w3c/sparql-results-xml, w3c/sparql-service-description, w3c/sparql-update, 16:33:44 TallTed, OK. 16:33:50 scribe+ 16:34:00 gb, status 16:34:00 TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-new 16:34:00 … https://github.com/w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-federated-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment https://github.com/w3c/sparql-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle 16:34:01 … https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples 16:34:04 … https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg 16:34:27 gkellogg: we are almost done with RDF C14n normative bits, there are remaining editorial changes. 16:34:29 for them what care, https://w3c.github.io/GHURLBot/manual.html 16:34:36 ... might be ready after TPAC 16:34:38 scribe- 16:34:42 gkellogg: normative parts of RDF Dataset Canonicalization are done. Should go to CR after TPAC. 16:35:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:35:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:35:26 tnx 16:36:20 few issues, will see with pierre-antoine to fix them. open actions twice, scribe change not in topic 16:36:33 other than that it looks good to me 16:36:36 s|… https://github.com/w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-federated-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment https://github.com/w3c/sparql-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle|| 16:36:44 pfps has left #rdf-star 16:36:49 s|TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-new|| 16:36:59 s|… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples|| 16:37:08 s|… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg|| 16:37:52 s|w3c/sparql-results-xml, w3c/sparql-service-description, w3c/sparql-update,|| 16:38:02 s|gb, use w3c/rdf-star-wg, w3c/rdf-concepts, w3c/rdf-n-triples, w3c/rdf-n-quads, w3c/rdf-common, w3c/rdf-new, w3c/rdf-primer, w3c/rdf-schema, w3c/rdf-semantics, w3c/rdf-trig, w3c/rdf-turtle, w3c/rdf-ucr, w3c/rdf-xml, w3c/sparql-concepts, w3c/sparql-entailment, w3c/sparql-federated-query, w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol, w3c/sparql-new, w3c/sparql-protocol, w3c/sparql-query, w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv, w3c/sparql-results-json,|| 16:38:02 16:38:29 TallTed: thanks! 16:38:58 s|agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]|| 16:39:05 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:39:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:40:39 i/zakim, close item 1/scribe: gkellogg 16:42:19 s/gb, status// 16:42:26 s/gb, status// 16:42:34 s/TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and no repositories are specified.// 16:43:03 s/Sorry, I don't know what repository to use.// 16:43:38 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:43:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:45:42 s|https://github.com/en -> @en|| 16:45:42 https://github.com/en -> @en 16:46:00 s|… https://github.com/EN -> @EN|| 16:46:00 https://github.com/EN -> @EN 16:46:21 s/@en/`@en`/ 16:46:40 s/@EN/`@EN`/ 16:47:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:47:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:47:58 i/zakim, close item 1/gkellogg has volunteered to scribe 16:49:02 s|https://github.com/en|| 16:49:09 s|https://github.com/EN|| 16:49:17 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:49:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:51:05 I have trained gb (nee ghurlbot) to use our repositories. These will stick until/unless the bot is renamed again, or its admins drop its settings file(s). 16:51:17 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:51:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:51:57 Zakim, end meeting 16:51:57 As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, ktk, gkellogg, TallTed, pfps, Souri_ 16:52:00 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:52:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim 16:52:07 I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:52:07 Zakim has left #rdf-star 16:52:10 RRSAgent, bye 16:52:10 I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-actions.rdf : 16:52:10 ACTION: gkellogg to separate out language tag from base direction in w3c/rdf-concepts#48. [1] 16:52:10 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-irc#T16-27-32 16:52:13 I created -> issue #30 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json/issues/30 16:52:13 but I could not add the "action" label. 16:52:13 That probably means I don't have push permission on w3c/sparql-results-json. previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-rdf-star-minutes.html meeting: RDF-star WG weekly s/N-Triples #34/N-Triples 34 s/-> `@en`/ s/-> `@EN`/