04:31:16 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 04:31:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-i18n-irc 04:31:20 Zakim has joined #i18n 04:31:29 agendabot, find agenda 04:31:29 addison, OK. This may take a minute... 04:31:31 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/fc585baf-5661-44ac-8a81-c599d8ab81bb/20230725T220000/ 04:31:31 clear agenda 04:31:31 agenda+ Agenda 04:31:31 agenda+ Action Items 04:31:32 agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports 04:31:34 agenda+ Review on-going issues 04:31:42 Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS 04:31:47 Chair: Addison Phillips 04:31:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-i18n-minutes.html addison 04:33:10 gb, find actions with label CSS 04:33:39 gb, help repo 04:33:39 addison, the command "repo: xxx/yyy" or "repo: yyy" adds repository 04:33:39 … xxx/yyy to my list of known repositories and makes it the 04:33:39 … default. If you create issues and action items, they will be 04:33:39 … created in this repository. If you omit xxx, it will be the copied 04:33:40 … from the next repository in my list, or "w3c" if there is none. 04:33:43 … You can give more than one repository. Use commas or 04:33:45 … spaces to separate them. Aliases: repo, repos, repository, 04:33:48 … repositories. See also "gb, help use". 04:33:51 … Example: "repo: w3c/rdf-star". 04:33:56 gb repo: w3c/i18n-actions 04:34:37 gb, list actions with label CSS 04:35:47 gb, list actions 04:36:07 gb, list open actions 04:36:34 gb, status 04:36:34 addison, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and no repositories are specified. 04:37:08 gb, use w3c/i18n-actions 04:37:08 addison, OK. 04:37:18 gb, list open actions with label CSS 04:37:18 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: none 04:37:29 gb, list open actions with label css 04:37:29 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: none 04:37:37 gb, list open actions 04:37:38 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #25, #24, #23, #22, #19, #18, #16, #15, #13, #12, #11, #10, #9, #8, #7, #6, #5, #4 04:38:00 gb, list open actions with label css+i18n 04:38:01 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: none 04:44:06 gb, list open actions with label DONE 04:44:07 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #25, #24, #22 04:45:06 gb, list open actions with label css 04:45:06 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #18, #13, #11, #10 04:52:46 xfq_ has joined #i18n 04:54:33 atsushi has joined #i18n 04:57:08 present+ Addison 04:57:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-i18n-minutes.html addison 04:59:06 present+ Florian, Atsushi 05:00:00 xfq has joined #i18n 05:02:04 present+ Fuqiao 05:02:34 present+ fantasai 05:02:56 agenda? 05:03:21 agenda+ Ruby 05:03:21 scribe+ 05:03:38 agenda+ Line-breaking in SEAsian languages 05:04:53 https://www.w3.org/2022/06/html-wg-charter.html 05:05:02 https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/htmlwg/ 05:07:08 rrsagent, make log public 05:07:11 rrsagent, make minutes 05:07:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-i18n-minutes.html xfq 05:07:18 action addison to ask about status of html because of ruby 05:07:39 action: addison to ask about status of html because of ruby 05:07:47 Created -> action #26 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/26 05:09:33 zakim, take up agendum 2 05:09:33 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 05:10:07 gb, list open actions with label css 05:10:18 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #18, #13, #11, #10 05:10:35 #18? 05:10:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) 05:11:23 #13? 05:11:24 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/13 -> Action 13 Make sure generics are comfortable to read in the content language (on frivoal) 05:11:53 florian: just had f2f, need to get the group work on #18 05:12:20 #11? 05:12:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) 05:12:41 #10? 05:12:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on fantasai) 05:12:55 florian: hope to have plenty of time in August 05:14:18 agenda? 05:14:37 r12a has joined #i18n 05:14:59 zakim, take up agendum 6 05:14:59 agendum 6 -- Line-breaking in SEAsian languages -- taken up [from addison] 05:15:40 florian: from a Unicode line breaking spec point of view, Latin in SEAsian languages do not have wrapping opportunities around them 05:16:05 ... that's not helpful for the langauge 05:16:14 addison: you mean Thai etc. 05:16:23 florian: Thai, Lao, Khmer etc. 05:16:53 ... when your UA doesn't know about the languages they're supposed to break anywhere 05:16:56 ... like Javanese 05:17:15 ... Thai script used to write the Thai language 05:17:21 ... but also other languages 05:17:26 ... and dialetcs 05:17:50 addison: I know r12a raised specific issues in the sealreq issues 05:18:09 ... Thai dictionary is only for the Thai language 05:18:18 florian: so far how this work or doesn't is magic in CSS 05:18:54 ... you can do it manually if it's not supported by your browser 05:19:14 ... if you wrap a language using the Thai script but not the Thai language 05:19:30 ... you might put wbr elements in your text indicating the breaks are expected 05:19:35 ... but it's not Thai 05:19:44 addison: it might break in the middle of a word 05:20:09 florian: in CSS there is no way to dectect SEAsian languages 05:20:21 ... I want to hear your opinion 05:20:27 ... you can break anywhere 05:20:56 ... if you add markup and say break anywhere 05:21:11 ... then it's not 'nowrap' 05:22:08 ... ideally you just leave it to the browser but if you want to do it yourself 05:22:44 ... if you know auto doesn't work reliably can you turn it off? 05:24:11 https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/ 05:24:50 https://www.w3.org/International/sealreq/gap-analysis/khmr-gap#line_breaking 05:25:04 ... if there's no dictionary the preferred approach is to break anywhere instead of let it overflow, right? 05:25:26 https://www.w3.org/International/sealreq/gap-analysis/java-gap#line_breaking 05:25:41 r12a: there are different kind of line breaking behavior in SEAsian languages 05:26:15 florian: I understand that in Javanese etc. the cluster is more complex than Thai 05:26:52 https://www.w3.org/International/sealreq/thai/#linebreak 05:27:20 xfq: In Javanese, the initial consonant of a word may be added to the last consonant of the previous word 05:27:35 ... so line breaking do not necessarily break text at word boundaries 05:30:16 florian: my hypothesis is 1) browsers should do it automatically 2) when you want to do it manually how do you turn off the dictionary based line breaking 05:31:46 s/when you want to do it manually how do you turn off the dictionary based line breaking/when you want to do it manually, what authors would want to to manually insert wbr or zwsp, and turn off dictionaary based linebreaks 05:31:47 r12a: I'm searching for an issue that I'm sure I wrote which talks about all of this 05:31:57 Is it https://github.com/w3c/sealreq/issues/25 ? 05:32:26 https://github.com/w3c/sealreq/issues/7 05:32:33 s/should do it automatically/should do it automatically, including taking the language tag into account 05:32:34 q+ 05:32:53 q- 05:33:45 florian: if the user only has the Thai dictionary, are they ok with using the dictionary even if it's not great, or are they completely different? 05:33:56 r12a: I think it's a bit of both 05:33:59 https://r12a.github.io/scripts/thai/index.html 05:34:10 ... the author should be able to control 05:35:01 florian: if it's not accurate then we should probably apply it, if not, then it would be good not to apply the dictionary 05:35:28 s/if it's not accurate/if it's not accurate but similar to the Thai dictionary 05:36:49 florian: is there a grouping for the Javanese-like languages and the Thai-like languages in Unicode? 05:36:50 r12a: no 05:37:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-i18n-minutes.html addison 05:37:46 ... grapheme clusters may be going to change to mean orthographic syllables in Unicode 05:38:02 ... base char + combinging char 05:38:16 ... sometimes called a combining char sequence 05:39:28 ... in practise the combining char sequence is equivalent to orthographic syllables 05:40:06 florian: in the future Unicode might make grapheme clusters mean orthographic syllables? 05:40:11 r12a: for some languages 05:40:19 ... for Devanagari it might not be the case 05:41:04 r12a: current grapheme clusters is just base char + combining chars 05:41:14 https://r12a.github.io/scripts/featurelist/index.html 05:41:48 ... you may want to see this page 05:41:56 ... it's update significantly 05:42:24 ... Javanese, Lisu, Tibetan 05:43:13 agenda? 05:43:27 see also https://r12a.github.io/scripts/bali/ban.html#graphemes 05:43:31 zakim, take up agendum 5 05:43:31 agendum 5 -- Ruby -- taken up [from addison] 05:43:42 florian: I'll come back to this group 05:44:41 ... I was told by Tess from Apple that the HTML WG might be disbanded so we need to figure out where we put the ruby markup document 05:46:11 r12a: Myles has some threads and I've been trying to read those 05:46:22 Topic: Other issues 05:47:14 florian: word boundary line breaking? 05:47:57 r12a: I came up with another problem yesterday 05:49:35 https://github.com/w3c/afrlreq/issues/17 05:50:23 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8914 05:50:28 r12a: in N'ko, Hebrew, Arabic some text should be slanted to the left 05:50:54 ... in N'ko it's the default 05:51:04 ... in Hebrew it's author's choice 05:51:27 ... Chris said you can use things like -13deg 05:52:14 ... but if there's an existing italic font in the system then the italic font will be used 05:52:15 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8914#issuecomment-1649678597 05:53:53 fantasai_: css doesn't know the left leaning nature about italics 05:54:09 ... that only works with variable fonts 05:54:29 ... if you want to create an oblique font that leans to the left but you don't want to create a variable font 05:54:57 r12a: if you see the image they're not variable fonts 05:55:18 fantasai_: if the font wants to provide both left- and right- leaning fonts 05:55:25 ... it needs to be a variable fonts 05:55:31 s/fonts/font 05:55:56 s/fantasai_/fantasai/g 05:56:44 r12a: you need to have different font faces 05:57:23 fantasai: you said the font designer choose left-leaning or right-leaning, what if the font designer decided to choose both? 05:57:43 r12a: italics is extremely differnt from oblique fonts 05:57:51 ... see the Ukrainian image 05:58:46 ... I think if you specify a `font-style: oblique -14deg;` 05:59:15 ... is there an italic font for this , if so then use it, if not then apply the oblique 05:59:26 florian: I'm not sure that's right 05:59:33 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-fonts-4/#font-style-prop 06:00:21 r12a: that seems to be the browsers are doing according to my test 06:00:58 florian: if people ask for oblique it should never fall back from italic to oblique 06:01:32 > The font matching routine will select a font to use which is closest to the requested angle 06:03:17 florian: font-synthesis is kind of strange, if you're asking for oblique it's less useful because it's a lot easier to synthesize than italic 06:04:50 addison: in some cases extra oblique is needed since the glyph is already slanted 06:07:10 ... if you just allow the closest but the closest might be in the wrong direction 06:07:48 florian: if you want italic say italic, if you want oblique say oblique 06:09:28 r12a: the oblique comes with an angle, it seems to aim at synthesize it, not to choose an oblique font 06:09:37 s/the oblique comes/the oblique value comes 06:10:43 florian: if you ask for 14deg and there's a 15deg one it's probably fine, if you ask for 14deg and there's a 37deg one then maybe not 06:11:35 r12a: maybe the content author is happy with the approximate number but maybe the content author wants the exact number 06:13:34 fantasai: I think leaning vs upright is a more important distinction than leaning in different directions 06:14:01 ... I probably care less about what exactly the angle is 06:15:52 addison: are people talking about italic, and oblique is a side effect, or is it strictly about oblique? 06:16:57 florian: if it's not a variable font I don't believe the UA knows if a font is left-leaning 06:17:19 ... should we add a descriptor in @font-face? 06:17:19 https://github.com/font-face -> @font-face 06:17:36 fantasai: probably 06:18:28 florian: descriptor in @font-face say whether a non-variable font is left-leaning or not 06:19:25 fantasai: this is an under investigated corner of the spec 06:19:38 ... I think we need to look into this 06:20:02 ... if we need to OT to provide this metadata 06:20:15 florian: for variable fonts the UA would know 06:20:30 r12a: this has to work for non VFs 06:21:49 florian: maybe one of you could look into an N'ko font including the Latin glyphs and see if the Latin glyphs lean to the left or right 06:22:27 r12a: if the Latin leans to left and the Hebrew leans to the right then the result doesn't look great 06:23:30 florian: 2 problems 06:23:32 ... 1. @@ 06:23:32 ... 2. we have no way to say if you want to italicize leftwards 06:23:36 Open 06:23:37 Open 06:23:47 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8914 06:24:14 s/@@/fix existing selection of oblique text/ 06:26:46 action: florian to write comments about oblique and italic options on css 8914 06:26:46 Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe florian is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions? 06:27:31 action: frivoal to write comments about oblique and italic options on css 8914 06:27:33 Created -> action #27 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/27 06:29:57 gb, florian = frivoal 06:29:57 addison, OK. 06:30:47 fantasai: we should start to assemble an agenda for TPAC 06:31:28 ... in the CSSWG repo we have the labels 'Agenda+ i18n' and 'Agenda+ TPAC' 06:31:56 ... we should flag both of those labels 06:32:41 rrsagent, make minutes 06:32:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-i18n-minutes.html xfq 06:33:12 @Bert, gb doesn't like labels with + in their names, eg. css+i18n or probably "Agenda+" 06:33:12 https://github.com/Bert -> @Bert 06:33:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-i18n-minutes.html addison 06:36:22 zakim, bye 06:36:22 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Florian, Atsushi, Fuqiao, fantasai 06:36:22 Zakim has left #i18n 06:41:06 xfq has joined #i18n 06:53:09 atsushi_ has joined #i18n 07:54:26 xfq has joined #i18n 08:17:41 atsushi has joined #i18n 08:50:54 atsushi has joined #i18n 08:51:28 xfq has joined #i18n 08:54:03 xfq has joined #i18n 10:30:48 xfq has joined #i18n 10:54:27 xfq has joined #i18n