IRC log of ixml on 2023-07-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:50:52 [RRSAgent]

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13:50:56 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-irc

13:53:26 [norm]

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13:58:02 [mjoel]

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13:58:58 [mjoel]

good morning/afternoon/evening

13:59:04 [norm]

Hello Joel

13:59:13 [norm]

rrsagent, help

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13:59:24 [john]

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14:00:12 [Steven]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:00:21 [Steven]

Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference

14:00:30 [Steven]

Date: 25 July 2023

14:00:37 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

14:00:41 [Steven]

Previous minutes:

14:01:10 [Steven]

Previous minutes: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/27-ixml-minutes

14:01:32 [mjoel]

AT&T fiber has been down for 5(!) days at my location, so I'm on a shaky tethered mobile internet stream

14:01:34 [Steven]

Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jul/0006

14:01:48 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:01:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html Steven

14:02:16 [mjoel]

is there a backup phone bridge?

14:02:20 [Steven]

Scribenick: cmsmcq

14:02:25 [Steven]

Scribe: Michael

14:02:55 [cmsmcq]

No one seems to know of a backup phone bridge.

14:04:30 [cmsmcq]

topic: Administrivia

14:05:14 [norm]

My attempt at a pubrules-correct community draft is: https://ixml.nwalsh.com/ixml/CG-FINAL-ixml-20230710/

14:05:26 [cmsmcq]

https://meet.google.com/dfz-rwpj-opq - continued

14:06:05 [cmsmcq]

ACTION 2023-01-10-b - continued

14:06:05 [cmsmcq]

ACTION 2023-01-10-c - continued

14:06:15 [cmsmcq]

ACTION 2023-04-11-a: done, at least a draft.

14:06:43 [cmsmcq]

Everyone has 48 hours to point to errors; if none are reported, NDTW will send it to the publication team

14:06:58 [cmsmcq]

s/https://meet.google.com/dfz-rwpj-opq - continued//

14:07:25 [cmsmcq]

ACTION 2023-04-11-c - partially done in June, but not yet discussed.

14:08:50 [cmsmcq]

ACTION 2023-05-09-d: done

14:09:13 [cmsmcq]

ACTION 2023-06-27-a: done (and turned into a PR by NDTW)

14:09:37 [cmsmcq]

topic: status of implementations

14:09:50 [cmsmcq]

3.0 version of coffee* is imminent.

14:10:09 [cmsmcq]

The GLL parser is now consistently a little faster than the Earley parser.

14:10:25 [cmsmcq]

Enumeration of trees in cases of ambiguity has now been implemented.

14:10:45 [cmsmcq]

Renaming proposal implemented (but just found a bug).

14:11:58 [cmsmcq]

Steven: renaming is half done.

14:12:22 [cmsmcq]

topic: Status of testing and test suites

14:13:11 [cmsmcq]

Norm has requested that we merge a test on output ambiguity: see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jul/0008.html

14:14:05 [cmsmcq]

ACTION: MSM to add ambiguity as discussion to agenda

14:15:45 [cmsmcq]

ACTION: MSM to add discussion of wording proposal for renaming to agenda for next meeting

14:15:56 [cmsmcq]

topic: Technical issues

14:16:39 [cmsmcq]

NDTW suggested that in order to use the new syntax for renaming, the grammar will need to be marked with a version number (e.g. 1.1)

14:17:15 [cmsmcq]

Otherwise, a 1.0 processor may just interpret the grammar as syntactically incorrect and reject it.

14:18:01 [cmsmcq]

Examples need to have a 1.1 version string.

14:18:25 [cmsmcq]

But it may be that nothing further is needed.

14:19:26 [cmsmcq]

topic: Issue 176

14:19:40 [cmsmcq]

This was closed in the last meeting and should be dropped from the agenda.

14:19:51 [cmsmcq]

topic: Issue 181 Non serializable characters in the input

14:19:56 [cmsmcq]

Raised by John Cowan

14:22:48 [norm]

Comment in here: https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/176

14:26:44 [mjoel]

EBCEDIC...now there's a name I haven't heard in...

14:27:58 [cmsmcq]

We discussed John Cowan's suggestion that line endings be normalized.

14:28:18 [cmsmcq]

Some sentiment that ixml doesn't now do any normalization, so this would be a change.

14:29:12 [cmsmcq]

Some sentiment that we do have (implicit) normalization to Unicode -- or at least, a processor could without non-conformance handle non-Unicode input by normalizing to Unicode.

14:29:36 [cmsmcq]

JL: the question is, where is our design center? Text input? or binary input?

14:30:15 [cmsmcq]

JL thinks the design center is clearly text.

14:30:45 [cmsmcq]

SP: we don't now say anything at all about input, or changing it. We have a sequence of characters, and we do stuff with it.

14:30:57 [cmsmcq]

s/we do/the grammar does/

14:31:25 [cmsmcq]

SP: line-end normalization could be an option.

14:31:44 [cmsmcq]

But it shouldn't be required.

14:32:46 [cmsmcq]

BTW: an option would work, but end users will want the default to be normalization, not non-normalization.

14:34:48 [Steven]

Present: Bethan, Joel, John, Michael, Norm, Steven

14:35:56 [cmsmcq]

SP: there are three options here.

14:36:12 [cmsmcq]

1 Leave it as is, and you get Unicode characters for CR etc.

14:36:40 [cmsmcq]

2 Processors SHOULD offer line-end normalization as an option, with default of no-normalization.

14:37:15 [cmsmcq]

3 Processors SHOULD offer non-normalization as an option, but with normalization as the default.

14:38:41 [cmsmcq]

JL: one wrinkle is that really it's not the processor invocation but the grammar that needs to say "this grammar assumes normalized line-ends".

14:39:25 [cmsmcq]

In that case, a run-time option is not quite the right thing.

14:40:23 [cmsmcq]

ACTION: NDTW to make an issue for the question of line-end normalization.

14:40:46 [cmsmcq]

topic: C0 and C1

14:41:37 [norm]

https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/189

14:46:28 [cmsmcq]

In the current spec, C0 and C1 control characters are not allowed in literal strings.

14:46:44 [cmsmcq]

Some implementations of ixml treat 7F as a member of C1, some don't.

14:47:43 [cmsmcq]

We seem, after discussion, to have consensus that 7F should be covered by this rule (whether it's part of C1 or not).

14:48:08 [cmsmcq]

SP notes that the Unicode Database classes U+007F as CC (control character, other)

14:48:39 [cmsmcq]

It may be better to recast the rule in terms of the Cc character class.

14:48:58 [cmsmcq]

The range of that class is 00-1F, 7F, and 80-9F.

14:49:25 [cmsmcq]

ACTION: Norm to make PR for recasting the rule.

14:50:53 [cmsmcq]

topic: Next meeting

14:51:02 [cmsmcq]

We will meet again on 8 August.

14:51:42 [cmsmcq]

JL suggests that we try to spend some time on grammar combination at the next meeting.

14:52:44 [cmsmcq]

ACTION: JL to redraft his notes on grammar combination and send something to the public list/

14:53:01 [cmsmcq]

Adjourned at xx:52.

14:53:09 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:53:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

14:53:43 [cmsmcq]

s/status of implementations/Status of implementations/

14:54:26 [cmsmcq]

s|/meet.google.com/dfz-rwpj-opq - continued///meet.google.com/dfz-rwpj-opq - continued||

14:55:05 [cmsmcq]

s/coffee*/NineML/

14:55:09 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:55:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

14:58:45 [cmsmcq]

s/ACTION: 2023/ACTION 2023/

14:58:50 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:58:52 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

14:59:07 [cmsmcq]

s/ACTION: 2023/ACTION 2023/g

14:59:11 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:59:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

14:59:39 [cmsmcq]

s/ACTION: 2023/ACTION 2023/

14:59:40 [cmsmcq]

s/ACTION: 2023/ACTION 2023/

14:59:41 [cmsmcq]

s/ACTION: 2023/ACTION 2023/

14:59:44 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:59:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

15:01:17 [cmsmcq]

ScribeNick: cmsmcq

15:01:22 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:01:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

15:04:56 [cmsmcq]

ScribeOptions: --scribenick cmsmcq

15:04:58 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:05:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

15:06:21 [cmsmcq]

Scribe: cmsmcq = Michael

15:06:26 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:06:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

15:07:03 [cmsmcq]

ScribeOptions: --scribe cmsmcq = Michael

15:07:07 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:07:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq

15:08:33 [cmsmcq]

RRSAgent, you are excused

15:08:33 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'you are excused', cmsmcq. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:09:12 [cmsmcq]

rrsagent, please excuse us

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-actions.rdf :

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: MSM to add ambiguity as discussion to agenda [1]

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-irc#T14-14-05

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: MSM to add discussion of wording proposal for renaming to agenda for next meeting [2]

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-irc#T14-15-45

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: NDTW to make an issue for the question of line-end normalization. [3]

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-irc#T14-40-23

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Norm to make PR for recasting the rule. [4]

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-irc#T14-49-25

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JL to redraft his notes on grammar combination and send something to the public list/ [5]

15:09:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-ixml-irc#T14-52-44