11:55:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-motion
11:56:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/24-wcag3-motion-irc
11:56:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:56:02 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Rain
11:57:02 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #wcag3-motion
11:57:16 <Rain> agenda+ Introductions
11:57:32 <Rain> agenda+ How do we want to take minutes?
11:57:42 <Rain> agenda+ Review meeting time
11:58:05 <Rain> agenda+ Existing materials?
11:58:47 <sheribyrne> sheribyrne has joined #wcag3-motion
11:58:59 <Rain> agenda+ Finalize goals
11:59:13 <Rain> agenda+ Work on plan of action
11:59:19 <Rain> agenda?
11:59:35 <sheribyrne> present+
12:00:04 <eric_hind> eric_hind has joined #wcag3-motion
12:00:33 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #wcag3-motion
12:00:54 <Rain> present+
12:01:01 <jeanne> present+
12:01:07 <alastairc> present+
12:01:24 <sheribyrne> for the research topic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8311056/
12:02:36 <Makoto> present+
12:02:55 <jedi> present+
12:03:04 <Rain> zakim, take up item 1
12:03:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions -- taken up [from Rain]
12:04:18 <sheribyrne> the other one I was looking for, for the research topic: https://trace.umd.edu/peat/
12:09:06 <mmoss_> mmoss_ has joined #wcag3-motion
12:17:28 <Rain> zakim, take up next item
12:17:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- How do we want to take minutes? -- taken up [from Rain]
12:17:59 <Rain> Link for our scratchpad Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_9JGeFFR51ql_yET1Y7zvajArr7QOHDWK2aIqdhpHk/edit
12:19:08 <sheribyrne> q+
12:19:21 <Rain> ack sheribyrne
12:19:49 <Rain> Sheri: google docs are messy, permissions can be challenging, and if people on this call mostly have experience with IRC gets the job done
12:19:54 <AndySomers> AndySomers has joined #wcag3-motion
12:20:03 <Rain> +1 to Sheri
12:20:06 <AndySomers> +present
12:20:11 <eric_hind> +1 to Sheri
12:20:21 <AndySomers> +1
12:20:27 <jedi> +1 to Sheri
12:20:33 <jeanne> +1
12:20:34 <mmoss_> present+
12:20:43 <Rain> present+ AndySomers
12:20:57 <Makoto> +1, but I won't be able to scribe due to my English. I'm really sorry about that...
12:21:31 <Rain> Decision: use IRC
12:21:36 <Rain> scribe: Wilco
12:22:13 <Wilco> Rain: I'll put together a scribe list on our wiki page
12:22:27 <Rain> Link to our wiki page in Github: https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Harm-from-motion-guideline-subgroup
12:22:48 <Rain> q?
12:23:07 <Rain> q+
12:23:18 <Rain> q?
12:23:19 <Wilco> Rain: If you have a question, you type "q+" to get on the speaker queue
12:23:24 <Rain> ack next
12:23:39 <Rain> zakim, take next item
12:23:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take next item', Rain
12:23:46 <Rain> zakim, take up item 3
12:23:46 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review meeting time -- taken up [from Rain]
12:24:29 <Wilco> Rain: A couple individuals learned of the group and wanted to participate. The meeting time may not be as good for everyone in the group now.
12:25:18 <Wilco> ... We could talk through some options. If we go an hour later I imagine it'll get pretty late for Jedi and Makoto, but it might be better for people in pacific time.
12:25:20 <sheribyrne> q+
12:25:43 <Rain> ack sheribyrne
12:25:46 <Wilco> ... Alternatively I could do a poll in a spreadsheet that I can send out after the meeting.
12:26:08 <AndySomers> I'm west coast
12:26:15 <AndySomers> Hollywood
12:26:18 <Wilco> Sheri: I can do meetings at 6am for a short period if that works for everyone else
12:26:24 <alastairc> With a survivor bias, presumably everyone here now is ok with the time? Do we know if there are people who couldn't attand today?
12:26:58 <Wilco> Andy: I've been moving my schedule around to be awake at 4am
12:27:04 <sheribyrne> I'm away from my normal home base on the east coast, but I'm only here for this week and next
12:27:42 <Wilco> Wilco: I've received no regrets. I think we can assume this is the group.
12:28:08 <Rain> q?
12:28:24 <Wilco> Makoto: I could do an hour later. If it could be Tuesday that would be better.
12:28:27 <Wilco> q+
12:28:40 <jedi> q+
12:28:55 <Wilco> q-
12:29:08 <jedi> q-
12:29:09 <Wilco> Jedi: An hour later works, Monday or Tuesday are both fine
12:29:44 <sheribyrne> Tuesday is better for me
12:30:02 <Wilco> Rain: In IRC, lets do a poll, put +1 for Monday, +2 for Tuesday +3 for either
12:30:02 <Rain> Please put +1 for Monday, +2 for Tuesday, +3 for either
12:30:06 <jeanne> +1 for Monday only
12:30:09 <AndySomers> +3
12:30:11 <eric_hind> +3
12:30:13 <murray_moss> +3
12:30:14 <jedi> +3
12:30:15 <sheribyrne> +3 with a preference for Tuesday
12:30:16 <alastairc> +3, Prefer monday, but Tuesday is possible.
12:30:18 <Makoto> +3
12:30:43 <Wilco> Rain: Looks like Monday is best
12:30:47 <jeanne> q+
12:30:54 <Rain> ack jeanne
12:31:28 <Wilco> Jeanne: I could see if I can switch with Shawn? If Tuesday works better for everyone else maybe Tuesday can work
12:32:27 <Rain> Keep Monday, 1 hour later
12:32:38 <sheribyrne> +1
12:32:39 <Rain> +1
12:32:40 <eric_hind> +1
12:32:40 <jedi> +1
12:32:42 <Makoto> +1
12:32:45 <alastairc> +1 (don't mind now or hour later)
12:32:45 <jeanne> +1
12:32:49 <murray_moss> +1
12:33:14 <Wilco> Rain: So we're keeping the meeting day, but meeting an hour later: 9am Eastern
12:33:21 <Rain> zakim, take up item 4
12:33:21 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Existing materials? -- taken up [from Rain]
12:33:52 <alastairc> q+
12:33:52 <Rain> From Sheri: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8311056/ and https://trace.umd.edu/peat/
12:33:59 <Rain> ack next
12:34:02 <jeanne> q+ put it in Resources
12:34:19 <jeanne> q+ to say that I put it in Resources
12:34:51 <alastairc> Understanding doc: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/animation-from-interactions.html
12:35:24 <alastairc> WIki page of previous notes: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Animation_caused_by_user_interaction
12:35:28 <Rain> Folder of documents from a categorization: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1t9H47G5gIUUSONx-Aly3UGCfQ7G0NI_V
12:35:57 <Rain> Mapping document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ujLLMhhBGb3OHq2xINzLyGTKlqAgcLpG0tms8bGBfw/edit#heading=h.vx20z4iqr83a
12:36:13 <Wilco> Jeanne: This is work from last year. Silver TF completed that process. As that exercise went on it got more sophisticated.
12:36:41 <Wilco> ... We looked at WCAG 2.1 criteria, and had a database of different information to categorise. The later ones all have an individual document backing them up
12:36:56 <alastairc> Presumably the Pause/stop/hide info would also help? This is the categorisation exercise doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnz5QmQBdikEpogEo-czNRzLX46Bm3fYog5V9hwnalU/edit#heading=h.vx20z4iqr83a
12:37:05 <Wilco> ... This was a start to the subgroup work. I didn't want that effort to be lost
12:37:37 <Wilco> Rain: This is a great set to work through. For next week lets make sure we've read all these materials
12:38:21 <Rain> q?
12:38:27 <Rain> ack next
12:38:28 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that I put it in Resources
12:38:28 <jeanne> ack me
12:38:32 <alastairc> The wiki page above has links to other docs as well.
12:38:38 <Rain> zakim, take up item 5
12:38:38 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Finalize goals -- taken up [from Rain]
12:38:59 <Wilco> Rain: We have 8 weeks, so we have to keep the goal well scoped.
12:39:01 <Rain> Current goal as written:  Write an exploratory version of the guideline and outcomes for Harm from motion guideline. This work does not include writing How-to pages or methods.
12:39:39 <Wilco> Rain: Some example goals we could also consider:
12:39:47 <Rain> Example goals: Creating user stories Documenting options as exploratory Identifying and documenting additional challenges  Answering related issues Writing text for the draft
12:40:38 <jeanne> q+ to list the goals recommennded by the Guideline Writing Process
12:40:51 <Wilco> Rain: I'm curious, do we have in those resources any user stories?
12:40:53 <Rain> ack jeanne
12:40:53 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to list the goals recommennded by the Guideline Writing Process
12:41:05 <jeanne> Preserve the knowledge and experience of WCAG guidance
12:41:05 <jeanne> Focus on the user
12:41:05 <jeanne> Use as much plain language or clear language as possible
12:41:13 <Wilco> Jeanne: The team that wrote the writing process recommended three goals.
12:41:43 <alastairc> q+
12:41:57 <Wilco> ... Preserve knowledge of WCAG guidance, use plain language, focus on the user
12:42:16 <Wilco> ... We did not do user stories, what we did is identify functional needs
12:42:34 <Rain> ack next
12:43:17 <AndySomers> q+
12:43:25 <Wilco> Alastair: It would be good to know if there are other use cases that should be covered, that people are aware of that aren't covered so far.
12:43:29 <sheribyrne> q+
12:43:44 <Wilco> ... It would also be helpful if in scope we consider when the guidance should apply or not.
12:44:05 <Wilco> ... We ran into problem with scoping, because it's really hard to determine how big something will be on the web.
12:44:33 <Rain> ack next
12:45:22 <alastairc> Hmm, is 'flashing' motion?
12:45:27 <Wilco> Andy: I believe there's a placeholder for three flashes. There is a lot of crossover between photic seizures.
12:45:46 <Wilco> ... This is a place where there might be something to combine or a sub category.
12:45:56 <Wilco> ... There are some aural things too that can cause harm in some cases.
12:46:16 <Wilco> ... There might be some hierarchical organisation to these guidelines.
12:47:19 <Wilco> Rain: We probably need to define motion. There are probably some definitions we can pull from, but we may need to extend or further scope it.
12:47:36 <AndySomers> q+
12:48:09 <AndySomers> visual ftigue
12:48:15 <Wilco> ... This got me also thinking about how we define harm, and what falls into that scope. There's the extreme of potential death, but then there's also something as simple as I can't finish my assignment because my focus potential gets redirected because of the motion.
12:48:18 <AndySomers> fatigue
12:48:52 <Wilco> .... There are all kinds of levels of harm. I think part of the work is to define harm.
12:48:52 <Rain> ack next
12:49:36 <Wilco> Sheri: There is a scientific phrase, pseudo-motion. I wonder if it's worth considering broadening the title of this group to harm from motion and pseudo-motion.
12:49:42 <Wilco> q+
12:50:06 <Rain> ack next
12:50:07 <Wilco> Rain: I saw this on a gradient, which gave the perception of something moving
12:50:47 <Wilco> Andy: On the question if flashing is motion. If you have motion video, going in and out of shadows while driving. That's the kind of flashing that's considered a risk. That would be considered motion, but it's also flashing.
12:51:02 <alastairc> q+ on avoiding a rabit hole
12:51:04 <Wilco> ... Another one is having an animation where light elements go over dark elements.
12:51:10 <Rain> ack next
12:51:37 <Wilco> ... Rapid state changes from light to dark, we're generally concerned about 3 flashes per second.
12:51:55 <Wilco> Rain: This is something we want to capture in the document.
12:52:05 <alastairc> q-
12:53:06 <Rain> Drafting area in our google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_9JGeFFR51ql_yET1Y7zvajArr7QOHDWK2aIqdhpHk/edit#heading=h.o4uv0mot7eqw
12:53:13 <Wilco> Wilco: I would suggest not renaming the group, but if pseudo-motion should be included start using it in the guideline you're proposing
12:53:23 <Wilco> Rain: We have 4 things we've identified we want to cover.
12:53:38 <Wilco> ... Defining motion, defining harm, use cases to cover, and scope of when this applies and when it doesn't.
12:54:02 <Wilco> ... Is defining these a good goal for our subgroup?
12:54:04 <alastairc> q+
12:54:45 <Wilco> Jeanne: In some ways its a little too detailed, and not covering the things we'd like you to. But we are still developing the process, we can refine things if we need to.
12:55:06 <alastairc> q-
12:55:10 <Wilco> ... What ideally we'd want to do is identify use cases/functional needs, then what are the outcomes of any guidance we're going to write that we want to say.
12:55:12 <AndySomers> Harm: triggering an unexpected event with negative physiological consequences
12:55:19 <alastairc> +1, we need to translate the use-cases into outcomes
12:55:21 <Wilco> ... we can then note we need to define harm, and define motion.
12:55:38 <Wilco> ... That was our intention. More a push towards outcome, and note what still needs to be worked on.
12:56:11 <Wilco> Rain: So then the first one is use cases, second is define the outcome, and stretch goals on defining scope, motion and harm.
12:56:26 <Wilco> ... My guess is defining motion / harm will evolve organically. They'll expand as we go.
12:56:26 <Rain> q?
12:56:50 <Wilco> Jeanne: Sounds great. And as we discuss things capture them for the future.
12:57:02 <alastairc> +1Also, capture negative decisions, e.g. "we didn't do that because of X".
12:57:06 <eric_hind> +1
12:57:07 <sheribyrne> +1
12:57:07 <Makoto> +1
12:57:08 <murray_moss> +1
12:57:10 <AndySomers> +1
12:57:11 <jeanne> +1
12:57:11 <Rain> Are we happy with these goals?
12:57:14 <jedi> +1
12:57:14 <Wilco> q+
12:57:21 <Rain> ack Wilco
12:58:45 <Wilco> Rain: I can draft us a plan of action for next week.
12:59:14 <Wilco> ... I would like to ask everyone if between now and our next meeting, familiarise yourselves with documents we already have.
12:59:29 <Wilco> ... In the drafting area, start putting in user stories so we can get into that next week.
12:59:35 <sheribyrne> Rain, I need access to the google doc
12:59:41 <alastairc> jeanne - did we do the WCAG 2.x AAA crieria in the categorisation exercise? I don't think animation from interactions is there...
13:00:02 <Rain> q?
13:00:03 <AndySomers> I need access too
13:00:48 <Wilco> zakim, end meeting
13:00:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been sheribyrne, Rain, jeanne, alastairc, Makoto, jedi, present, mmoss_, AndySomers
13:00:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:00:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/24-wcag3-motion-minutes.html Zakim
13:00:58 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:00:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag3-motion