15:01:39 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:01:44 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-irc 15:02:15 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:02:16 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:02:16 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/256 15:02:16 scribe: nigel 15:02:16 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-tt-minutes.html 15:02:18 Present: Atsushi, Chris, Nigel 15:02:19 Chair: Nigel 15:02:23 Regrets: Andreas 15:02:33 Topic: This meeting 15:02:48 rrsagent, make minutes 15:02:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:03:52 Present+ Pierre 15:04:00 Nigel: On today's agenda we have: 15:04:13 .. * IMSC-HRM 15:04:16 .. * DAPT 15:04:23 .. * TPAC 2023 planning 15:04:32 .. Is there any other business, or points to make sure we cover? 15:05:03 group: no other business 15:05:07 scribe+ cpn 15:05:13 Topic: IMSC-HRM 15:05:19 Subtopic: IMSC-HRM Tests 15:06:35 Nigel: Thank you Pierre for putting together the pull request to add IMSC-HRM tests 15:06:35 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm-tests/pull/1 15:07:08 Nigel: notes that w3c/imsc-hrm-tests needs to be added to github bot's list 15:08:10 Nigel: I sent an email Friday last week, asking to be allowed to merge before the normal 2 weeks 15:08:47 ... Andreas approved, pragmatically, I'm happy to merge this, we can point implementers to the tests 15:09:13 s/, p/. P 15:09:31 ... Are there any objections to doing that? 15:09:47 ... No objections, Pierre, feel free to merge 15:10:33 Pierre: Thank you 15:11:27 Nigel: The next steps are the call for implementations. This is really a call for everyone who can to share that we're looking for evidence of implementation 15:11:46 ... That could be a large body of content that passes the validator or meets the requirements of IMSC HRM 15:12:24 Pierre: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J0kPIKXyS7RT_nTA4bYueC0e1AoatyLeHkWtr_5dZzc 15:12:59 Nigel: When we published CR we also published a blog post that requests implementations. This is a more refined version of that request 15:13:11 Pierre: It's intended to be really targeted 15:13:52 ... It's a substantial amount of effort to pull content from libraries and run the HRM. Alternately, create an implementation of the HRM and synthetic content as an independent test vector 15:14:18 ... To maximise the chances of people hearing about it, we should send directly to people or groups who may be interested, as a personal email 15:14:42 ... We could do it formally, or add names to a spreadsheet to avoid sending to the same person twice 15:14:59 Nigel: With DAPT, we used the wiki in the repo to have an outreach log 15:15:00 MAttS has joined #tt 15:15:18 ... I don't think there's sensitivity about publishing who we've asked. But if there is, we could do it in the member-only wiki 15:15:29 Pierre: Might not be sensitive if it's by company 15:15:35 -> https://www.w3.org/news/2023/w3c-invites-implementations-of-imsc-hypothetical-render-model/ News post requesting implementations of IMSC-HRM 15:16:08 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/wiki IMSC-HRM repo wiki 15:16:10 present+ Matt_Simpson 15:16:18 pal has joined #tt 15:16:27 Present+ Matt 15:16:32 Present- Matt 15:17:01 Pierre: Maybe we can use the the implementation report wiki, to keep it all in one place 15:17:07 Nigel: That's fine too 15:18:31 Pierre: We should a link to the wiki from GitHub, by the way 15:18:45 ... https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC-HRM-1ED-Implementation-Report 15:19:31 Nigel: An action to take is tabulate the different tests into the implementation report, to show which implementations pass which tests 15:19:35 Pierre: I can do that 15:21:43 Nigel: Looking at the call for content text, the note about image content will be removed. There's a chicken and egg problem, if we don't make tests we can't include the feature in the end 15:22:26 Pierre: Either the community cares and will contact us, but if not we shouldn't feel bad about removing the feature. I know it's in use, we get bug reports on IMSC.js 15:22:59 Nigel: I'll add words on image profile, as we're looking for help 15:23:40 Pierre: The date is there to set expectation for when to respond 15:24:13 Nigel: Let's allow more time, say, October 15:25:04 Pierre: Do you have people in mind? 15:25:31 Nigel: Yes, two as implementers. For bodies of content, I should be able to do some myself, but unsure who else to ask 15:25:59 ... Matt, would be handy also if you also want to? 15:26:15 Pierre: Content that's actually in production 15:27:03 Matt: We may have some IMSC material. I don't think have anything suitable off the shelf 15:27:12 ... We can try generating from some of our tools 15:28:11 Nigel: Real audience facing content that meets HRM requirements 15:28:18 Matt: I can run through some of our content 15:28:24 Pierre: That would be awesome 15:28:49 Nigel: Shall we follow up offline on who to contact? 15:28:52 Pierre: OK 15:29:02 Nigel: Is there anything else to do on IMSC HRM? 15:29:51 ... Hearing no. Thank you for creating all those tests. Pierre and I talked last week, and the way the tests are organised might hint at improving the specification structure itself 15:30:20 ... I can raise an issue on that. It's about how we define the available time to render an ISD, as the lesser of IPD and time from prevous ISD 15:30:42 ... It would simplify one of the complicated bullet points in the spec 15:31:01 Topic: DAPT 15:31:42 Nigel: I sent lots of requests for wide review. We don't have a contact for ITIC, Pierre you might be able to help? 15:32:07 Pierre: I've pinged them, they're usually responsive, so I'll follow up with them 15:32:41 ... I suspect this might not be on their radar 15:33:19 Nigel: The other thing we need to is horizontal review. I completed and reviewed with Cyril the accessibility self review, also the security and privacy self review 15:33:29 ... I raised the review request with the APA WG 15:33:45 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/wiki/Wide-Review-outreach-log DAPT Wide Review outreach log wiki page 15:33:52 Nigel: I have been logging everything I've done in the wiki 15:34:21 ... I can't do the next action, the security and privacy reviews without adding sections on those to the spec 15:34:38 ... I raised a PR to do that, awaiting review. If anyone can review, please do 15:35:04 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/168 Pull request to Add Privacy and Security Section w3c/dapt#168 15:35:39 Nigel: There's an action on Cyril to request the TAG and i18n reviews 15:36:18 ... Some issues to discuss. One i18n points is about holding information only in attributes. You can't sensibly have markup in attributes so if you need to mix LTR and RTL in attributes, it's tricky 15:37:34 ... It's a problem in DAPT as we've specified that some human-readable text, such as remarks on translations, are put into metadata attributes like ttm:desc 15:38:08 ... TTML has long had this feature already, allowing some kinds of metadata just to be in attributes 15:38:52 ... ttm:desc is element, not an attribute. The content specified for ttm:desc is PCDATA only, not mixed content that can contain spans with markup 15:39:09 ... So if you want to markup language or direction on different parts of a ttm:desc element, you can't 15:39:24 ... It also applies to ttm:name, ttm:item, ttm:copyright 15:39:31 https://www.w3.org/TR/international-specs/#bidi_inline_change 15:40:25 Atsushi: Does it relate to the requirement in this URL? 15:40:25 Nigel: Yes 15:40:25 Atsushi: If I understand correctly, markup is preferred 15:40:40 Nigel: That's very helpful. So I'll add a pointer in the issue, and say we require support for unicode control characters 15:41:27 Chris: Is unicode control characters what the i18n group say they dislike? 15:42:13 Atsushi: Assigning the attribute as markup will help with semantics, but if we use the unicode code points, there's a need to understand the unicode characters itself. Could be an processing overhead. I think that's the root cause 15:42:28 s/an processing/a processing/ 15:42:32 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/164 How can mixed direction ltr and rtl be specified in metadata elements w3c/dapt#164 15:43:33 Nigel: Other things we've received on DAPT, I got some instant feedback on wide review from APA WG 15:44:06 ... They said DAPT looks like a typo, as it says "A DAPT", and ADAPT refers to something else. So people suggesting it needs a name change 15:44:36 ... I'm not completely convinced I agree with their conclusion. I tried to search for the ADAPT in the context of dubbing and audio description 15:45:09 ... But didn't find anything. There's a WAI-ADAPT, their personalisation task force. It's not a document or a spec, but they were sensitive to that 15:45:36 ... Not sure what action to take. Maybe edit the start of that sentence 15:46:00 cpn: The title is clearly the Dubbing and Audio description Profile - perhaps if it is spelled 15:46:11 .. out at first, rather than jumping into the acronyms, that would help. 15:47:01 Nigel: We could also add a pronunciation note, as we read it as D-A-P-T, not "dapt" 15:47:09 Matt: Reminds me of EBU-TT ;-) 15:47:47 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/167 APA WG feedback - name looks like a typo for ADAPT w3c/dapt#167 15:48:16 Subtopic: Support within workflowType for generic script origination w3c/dapt#169 15:48:24 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/169 15:48:59 Matt: Looking at the detail for this, we've been thinking that this would be a useful starting 15:49:08 Matt: I looked at some of the detail in the spec. We have been thinking that a structured script file we can commission people to produce, e.g., third party, would be a useful starting point for subtitles for deaf and hard of hearing, and dubbing and translation workflows 15:49:33 s/Matt: Looking at the detail for this, we've been thinking that this would be a useful starting// 15:50:01 Nigel: yes, daptm:workflowType 15:50:05 ... There's a workflow type property. It's mandatory, either dubbing or AD. When we commission one of these, it could also be used for subtitles for deaf and hard of hearing and for translation subtitles as well as dubbing 15:50:19 s/.../Matt: 15:50:24 ... At the moment, we'd mark it up as dubbing, but that would be erroneous 15:51:00 ... We don't necessarily know which of the subtitling, dubbing, or translation subtitling it might need to flow through. It could be one or all three 15:51:08 Nigel: Are you proposing a new type? 15:51:18 Matt: I think so, but don't know what I'd call it 15:51:24 Nigel: Would transcription work? 15:51:36 s/new type/new value for workflowType 15:51:59 Matt: It needs to be something generic like that. Depends whether you see it as describing the workflow or describing what's in the document 15:52:21 ... For commercial reasons, we might not want the third party to know it's being used for dubbing if they're not been commissioned to do that work 15:52:24 Nigel: That's interesting 15:53:00 Matt: Was there a view on whether the workflow is describing what it contributes towards? 15:53:14 ... That was my reading of it 15:53:23 Nigel: Yes. I can see that being helpful 15:53:38 ... Any other thoughts on this? 15:54:31 SUMMARY: Helpful to clarify if worfklowType is intended to capture current state or end outcome; adding a transcription value could be commercially useful for some user groups. 15:54:53 Subtopic: Registries 15:55:42 Nigel: A long time ago, I created a boilerplate registry, in the TTWG repo PR 243 15:55:45 github-bot: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/pull/243 15:55:45 nigel, Sorry, I don't understand that command. Try 'help'. 15:55:50 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/pull/243 15:56:45 Nigel: As there's been no comments, and all comments resolved, so I propose to merge the PR, and then create registries based on this: two for DAPT 15:57:07 ... Need to work out how, either as separate documents or directly inside DAPT 15:57:28 ... Unless you want more time to review, I propose merging 15:58:21 cpn: The only thing in my mind was about editor's drafts of draft registry status, 15:58:29 .. in Respec. Did you make any progress with that? 15:58:36 Nigel: I didn't do anything about that! 15:58:43 .. It's a good point 15:58:47 Chris: It's a separate issue. 15:59:23 Atsushi: I suppose WebCodecs registry is using slimline publication that we are using for DAPT, 15:59:32 .. where they auto-publish to /TR on merge 15:59:53 .. If so, there's no difference between ED and the published one on /TR so the state of ED for Draft Registries 15:59:55 .. is not needed. 16:00:32 cpn: Here, you haven't decided if the Registry is a separate document or within the spec itself. 16:00:33 Nigel: Yes 16:00:42 Chris: No need to delay it on my account then - that was my only question. 16:00:47 Nigel: Anyone else? 16:00:51 group: No 16:01:10 SUMMARY: TTWG call 2023-07-20: merge this pull request 16:01:38 Topic: Meeting Close 16:04:12 Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're over-time - let's cover any TPAC-related issues offline. 16:04:16 .. [adjourns meeting] 16:04:19 rrsagent, make minutes 16:04:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:22:30 s/We should a link to the wiki/We should add a link to the wiki 16:23:12 s/the note about image content will be removed/the note saying that image profile support will be removed 16:23:48 s/I don't think have anything suitable/I don't think we have anything suitable 16:24:05 s/Real audience facing content that meets HRM requirements/We're looking for real audience facing content that meets HRM requirements 16:25:06 s/The other thing we need to is horizontal review/The other thing we need to do is horizontal review 16:25:37 s/One i18n points/One of the internationalisation points 16:26:54 s/search for the ADAPT/search for ADAPT 16:27:27 s/WAI-ADAPT, their personalisation task force/WAI-Adapt, that used to be called the "personalisation task force" 16:28:49 s/nigel, Sorry, I don't understand that command. Try 'help'.// 16:29:09 rrsagent, make minutes 16:29:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:37:24 s|github-bot: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/pull/243|| 16:37:37 rrsagent, make minutes 16:37:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:38:58 rrsagent, make minutes 16:38:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:39:49 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:39:56 zakim, end meeting 16:39:56 As of this point the attendees have been Atsushi, Chris, Nigel, Pierre, Matt_Simpson 16:39:58 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:39:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:40:36 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:40:36 Zakim has left #tt 16:48:50 rrsagent, excuse us 16:48:50 I see no action items