W3C

– DRAFT –
Internationalization WG Teleconference

20 July 2023

Attendees

Present
Addison, Atsushi, Bert, David, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard
Regrets
-
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
Bert

Meeting minutes

Agenda Review

Action Items

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen

<addison> #19?

<gb> Action 19 Develop a specdev section about i18n considerations sections (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023

<addison> #15?

<gb> Action 15 Get character styling into w3c stylesheet (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023

<addison> #14?

<gb> Action 14 Pull text from gpuweb as a reference until we have a more permanent solution (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023

<addison> close #14

<gb> Closed action #14

<addison> #4?

<gb> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023

Info Share

JcK: IETF next week, so I probably won't join.

RADAR Review

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

Pending Issue Review

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending

Various Pull Requests

addison: Trying to get specdev published.
… Specdev has some broken links, because we haven't publsihed stringmeta in a year.

ACTION: addison: update string-meta in TR

addison: So proposing to publish stringmeta, too.

ACTION: addison to update string-meta in TR

<gb> Created action #24

<addison> w3c/i18n-glossary#40

addison: ^^ about fixing an image. Was this done?

xfq: I think respec was fixed since then, so this can probably be closed.
… I will check.

<addison> w3c/i18n-glossary#52

addison: xfq was adding some Jamo and Kana definitions.
… I noticed a typo.
… I can commit it.

<addison> https://deploy-preview-52--i18n-glossary.netlify.app/

addison: Shall we look at the two definitions now together?

<xfq> https://deploy-preview-52--i18n-glossary.netlify.app/#j

<atsushi> +1 to go

David: I would add that Kana can also be used for emphasis.
… It is not just for loan words.

<xfq> https://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/katakana-uses.html#:~:text=Katakana%20is%20used%20for%20emphasis

addison: Is Kana really a separate script, or is it a script together with Katakana?

David: In some ways it is also a separate script.

addison: The definition in gloassary is taken from Unicode definition.

atsushi: Maybe too complicated to mention this special usage.

David: Maybe mention hiragana and katakana and not mention the special usages. Example is use in names in metro stations.

addison: So use Unicode def, or...?

<xfq> fwiw, katakana is also commonly used for onomatopoeia

atsushi: I would not mention the complex usages.

David: Suggest to remove "The former is used to write particles, grammatical affixes, and words that have no kanji form; the latter is used primarily to write foreign words."

xfq: (I need to fix some punctuation.)

addison: If we use the Unicode def with chnages, should we inform Unicode?

r12a: higarana and katakana are more often used than kana

xfq: I can mention the two terms and say they are more often used.

David: "PrimariY" syllabic is the right term.

r12a: Or maybe not.
… The second sentence clarifies that the two, hiragana and katakana, are used together, so I'd not remove it.

r12a: I think we need to make our definition, and then tell Unicode.

addison: We can ask Unicode and if they don't want to change, then we can make our own definition.

ACTION: addison to inform Unicode about the kana definition

<gb> Created action #25

xfq: I started writing a def myself, but then found it was very similar to Unicode's, so I used theirs. But I can change it.

addison: I will contact Unicode about the kana definition. And we hold until then.

r12a: Note that is a definition, not meant as a tutorial.

xfq: We can link to other places for that.

atsushi: jlreq spec is frozen and task force hasn't discussed this.

<addison> w3c/i18n-glossary#35

addison: This is about definitions for utf-16 and utf-8.

r12a: is "63K" the right number?

addison: With "k" for 1000?

xfq: Use "2^16"?

addison: I can also mention the utf-16 definition when I talk to Unicode.

xfq: I agree with addison's comment in the issue.

r12a: About the "1M": They are not necessarily less common, or not all of them.

addison: This was written a long time ago and referred to Old Church Slovanic and Arcadian...

JcK: Endianness
… I think no definition is complete without that. Otherwise there are two versions of utf-16.

<xfq> https://deploy-preview-35--i18n-glossary.netlify.app/#dfn-utf-8

r12a: About utf-8: Maybe say that utf-16 is more used for internal representation and utf-8 for on-the-wire.

addison: I wouldn't say anything in the utf-16 def.
… We might want to say for utf-8 that it is the preferred encoding.

r12a: If you work with javascript, there is ahigh probability you work with utf-16.

xfq: Can say utf-8 is the dominant for the web.

addison: We say in general that you really should use utf-8.

<addison> w3c/bp-i18n-specdev#105

addison: This is about specdev and the rtl/bidi text.

xfq: I only added one "mustard" [about slanting left].
… A few scripts have this requirement.

r12a: Not a requirement for rtl, but for _some_ rtl scripts. Not Adlam, e.g.

addison: Is it "specification" or rather "implementations"?

r12a: If some other spec, say SVG, has a feature to slant text, it should also allow slant to the left.
… Italic usually involves more than slanting. This is about synthesized oblique.
… In that case, if a spec allows slanting, it should also allow slanting to the left.

addison: I would limit it to obliquing.

r12a: We don't have requirements for font developers. This is really only for sythesized oblique.

xfq: Yes, if there is a font, you can just use the font.

addison: Phrase it correctly: not just require slant left, but left and right :-)

r12a: It is not really for text decoration, nor for font management. Maybe park it under miscellaneous for now?

addison: There are some other issues tagged that are not related to obliquing.

xfq: OK, I'll do that

<addison> (for minutes, my suggestion was: Specifications describing the obliquing of text SHOULD support sloping letters in both directions.)

<r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/labels/t%3Atyp_bidi_x

xfq: I will move the tags and move the mustard to miscellaneous. And look for other issues for rtl/bidi text.

r12a: About the style for Unicode characers in specs: My code takes the text from the respec style and puts it in the doc. But sometimes it works and sometimes not. Haven't found why yet.

addison: As long as it works when we publish :-)

r12a: We have an index and a local.css. That local.css has stuff specific to that index file and nowhere else. And there is the respec22.css, which is in a different dir and applies to other docs.
… When you publish, the CSS files need to be in the same directory as the index file. So in a way we cheat and copy the from the respec22.css file.

addison: So I should also remove from local.css everything that is in respec22.

r12a: But you also wanted to be able to test things, didn't you?

addison: Yes, it should work not just when we publish.

addison: I want to not have to change things when I publish a doc.

AOB?

<addison> s/Accadian/Akkadian/

Summary of action items

  1. addison: update string-meta in TR
  2. addison to update string-meta in TR
  3. addison to inform Unicode about the kana definition
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 210 (Wed Jan 11 19:21:32 2023 UTC).

Diagnostics

Succeeded: s/r12a: @@/r12a: higarana and katakana are more often used than kana/

Succeeded: s/jreg/jlreq/

Succeeded: s/defintion/definition/

Succeeded: s/"mustard"/"mustard" [about slanting left]/

Failed: s/Accadian/Akkadian/

No scribenick or scribe found. Guessed: Bert

Maybe present: r12a, xfq

All speakers: addison, atsushi, David, JcK, r12a, xfq

Active on IRC: addison, atsushi, Bert, David, gb, r12a, xfq