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14:28:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:28:47 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:29:03 <ivan> Meeting: Verifiable Credentials Working Group Telco
14:29:03 <ivan> Date: 2023-07-12
14:29:03 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ae05a21b-c065-4e69-8d5e-352a0d391513/20230712T110000/
14:29:03 <ivan> chair: brent
14:29:03 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-07-12: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ae05a21b-c065-4e69-8d5e-352a0d391513/20230712T110000/
14:29:04 <ivan> regrets: kristina
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14:57:21 <ivan> present+
14:58:38 <ivan> present+ pauld
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15:03:43 <PL-ASU> present+
15:03:43 <hsano> present;
15:03:43 <hsano> present+
15:03:48 <manu> present+
15:04:19 <ivan> present+ PL-ASU
15:04:28 <dlongley> present+
15:04:40 <ivan> present+ orie
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15:05:01 <Orie> present+
15:05:04 <Orie> scribe+
15:05:42 <Orie> brent: Welcome, anyone is welcome to do an introduction
15:05:59 <Orie> Topic: Announcements
15:06:27 <Orie> brent: there are folks wanting to do demonstrations at TPAC... 10-15 minute presentation
15:06:45 <Orie> ... if you are attending TPAC, and want to be in that demonstration, please contact the chair
15:06:54 <Orie> Topic: Agenda
15:07:16 <Orie> brent: Proposals, and a little discussion... any agenda bash?
15:07:40 <brent> Topic: VC-JWT shortname change to vc-jose-cose
15:07:53 <Orie> Topic: Proposal to change short name of vc-jwt spec
15:08:15 <Orie> brent: there has been discussion of the vc-jwt spec... people seems to like vc-jose-cose
15:08:30 <Orie> ... seems to adjust the name to better refect the work that has been done
15:08:46 <Orie> https://github.com/w3c/vc-jwt/pull/115
15:08:46 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-jwt/pull/115
15:09:10 <Orie> brent: seems pretty straight forward
15:09:38 <manu> q+
15:09:45 <Orie> brent: any changes requested?
15:09:45 <brent> ack manu
15:10:00 <Orie> Manu: our charter doesn't say anything about COSE
15:10:31 <Orie> ... seems the argument here would be that the wg can change its mind on input documents?
15:10:42 <Orie> ... seems securing cose would be beneficial
15:11:13 <Orie> brent: yes, our charter says we are allowed to have various input documents
15:11:27 <ivan> q+
15:11:29 <Orie> ... seems cose is in scope, as a possible securing mechanism
15:11:37 <brent> ack ivan
15:12:05 <dlongley> +1 for the reasoning to be in the minutes and +1 to the reasoning.
15:12:13 <manu> Regarding our charter...
15:12:21 <manu> our charter doesn't explicitly list COSE as being in scope.
15:12:43 <manu> However, we note, under the Securing Verifiable Credentials (SVC) 1.0 section of the charter, that "The following are a non-exhaustive selection of expected input documents"
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15:13:03 <Orie> bretn: for the record, our charter lists JWT in scope, it also says something about PGP
15:13:12 <manu> and the group has decided that defining JOSE and COSE would be useful
15:13:15 <brent> PROPOSAL: change the shortname and repository of VC-JWT to vc-jose-cose.
15:13:17 <manu> Therefore, the charter allows for this change to be made.
15:13:22 <brent> +1
15:13:24 <Orie> +1
15:13:24 <andres> +1
15:13:26 <cabernet> +1
15:13:31 <ivan> +1
15:13:35 <manu> +0.75 (due to concerns around scope creep)
15:13:36 <dlongley> +1
15:13:45 <TallTed> +1
15:13:48 <will_> +1
15:13:49 <ivan> q+ on practicalities after the vote
15:13:53 <decentralgabe> +0 it's hard to say
15:13:59 <pauld_gs1> +1
15:14:07 <brent> RESOLVED: change the shortname and repository of VC-JWT to vc-jose-cose.
15:14:14 <brent> ack
15:14:19 <ivan> present+ pauld_gs1
15:14:28 <ivan> practicalities: https://github.com/w3c/vc-jwt/pull/115#issuecomment-1620408736
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15:14:37 <Orie> ivan: yeah so... i had... discussed this with the web master...
15:14:40 <Orie> ... there is an issue comment
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15:15:01 <Orie> ... it describes what has to be done... in terms of changing the repo name / TR... etc... its complicated
15:15:07 <Orie> ... who will do the work?
15:15:17 <JoeAndrieu> JoeAndrieu has joined #vcwg
15:15:25 <Orie> ... I am not sure who is really driving this document
15:15:34 <Orie> ... I don't know who my partner will be
15:15:40 <Orie> q+
15:15:43 <manu> scribe+
15:15:45 <brent> ack ivan
15:15:45 <Zakim> ivan, you wanted to comment on practicalities after the vote
15:15:49 <brent> ack Orie
15:16:03 <manu> Orie: I'm happy to make the necessary changes, Ivan. Let me know what changes need to be made.
15:16:28 <manu> Ivan: Ok, make the changes that I made on the issue comment, we'll make the changes next week.
15:16:31 <ivan> present+ JoeAndrieu
15:16:31 <Orie> ivan: thanks orie, please go through the list on the issue comment, sometime next week
15:16:41 <brent> Topic: Work Item status updates/PRs
15:16:52 <ivan> present+ griffin
15:16:55 <Orie> brent: any PRs that need attention?
15:16:55 <manu> q+
15:17:02 <brent> ack manu
15:17:09 <ivan> present+ steve_c
15:17:24 <Orie> manu: the media types other than vc+ld+json... that PR is marked pending close.
15:17:44 <Orie> ... 1101 add guidance of representations is slated to be closed, after a new PR is raised by Mike Jones
15:18:01 <manu> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1149
15:18:05 <Orie> ... 1142 we are still waiting for someone to pick up confidenceMethod
15:18:16 <Orie> ... there has been discussion on this PR
15:18:23 <Orie> ... I have the same concerns I have had for a while
15:18:32 <Orie> ... I plan to respond to Orie some time later
15:18:47 <Orie> ... I am expecting reviews from Ted, Dave and Ivan
15:19:16 <Orie> ... I think we need more people to review that PR
15:19:25 <Orie> ... 1172 is also semi stuck
15:19:33 <Orie> ... its been suggested to simplify the PR
15:19:48 <Orie> ... all the other PRs, are on an ok path for vcdm
15:19:53 <ivan> present+ oliver
15:20:10 <Orie> brent: any updates on vc-data-integrity, ecdsa, eddsa
15:20:12 <manu> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-integrity/pull/99
15:20:22 <Orie> mnau: there is a stuck PR, 99...
15:20:40 <Orie> manu: need to discuss PR 99 probably
15:20:49 <Orie> ... we are adding new editors to the specs
15:20:57 <ivan> q+
15:21:00 <Orie> ... waiting on invited expert status for those editors
15:21:33 <Orie> ivan: the invitation has been recieved, but he needs to review documents before possibly signing
15:21:38 <ivan> ack ivan
15:22:00 <Orie> ... eddsa and ecdsa there are 3 PRs open
15:22:23 <Orie> ... one moves the normative defintion for multikey to data integrity
15:22:37 <Orie> ... vc status list 2021... 5 PRs open
15:23:15 <manu> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-status-list-2021/pull/69
15:23:17 <Orie> manu: there are big changes being suggested
15:23:28 <Orie> ... change name, change URLs, remove versioning, etc...
15:23:39 <Orie> ... probably needs the wg to decide
15:24:10 <Orie> ... one concer is that when we added multiple status to status list, that it will be a breaking change
15:24:20 <Orie> ... we would need to bump the version to avoid breaking change
15:24:26 <ivan> s/concer/concern/
15:24:34 <Orie> ... we are discussing what the normative vocab url should be
15:24:47 <Orie> ... the other updates is to vc-specs dir
15:24:49 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-specs-dir/pulls
15:24:58 <Orie> ... there is 1 PR open for that...
15:25:13 <Orie> ... there is an argument to list all the media types associated with "VC ecosystem"
15:25:36 <Orie> ... there is a request to listing all the media types, and some concern on not listing "any media types"
15:25:47 <Orie> ... this could be a good topic for a longer discussion
15:26:00 <Orie> ... will we have a discussion on related media types, transformations, etc..
15:26:15 <Orie> ... it seems like there is a transform in the spec today
15:26:17 <Orie> q+
15:26:31 <Orie> ... that media type, could be listed in the spec directory
15:26:39 <brent> ack Orie
15:27:19 <manu> Orie: There is an open PR to remove that transformation and associated media type. There is only one person objecting to that PR, so I expect Chairs will make  a consensus decision on it, based on reviews, it'll be removed. What that will mean is that there aren't any media types that require a transformation that the WG is working on.
15:27:27 <PL-ASU> What is that PR# for removing media types?
15:27:46 <JoeAndrieu> q+ to say the directory is no restricted to VCWG work. that's sort of the point.
15:28:00 <dlongley> PL-ASU: I believe this one: https://github.com/w3c/vc-jwt/pull/88
15:28:02 <manu> Orie: The interesting thing about media types directory is if it will contain references to things that WG is not working on -> vc+acdc, vc+gordian -- might be confusing if some are official work items and some of them are not, agree that it should have a longer discussion.
15:28:06 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:28:06 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to say the directory is no restricted to VCWG work. that's sort of the point.
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15:28:32 <Orie> joeandrieu: the whole point of the directory of related resources... was to allow work outside of the group to be listed
15:28:50 <Orie> brent: anything before we move to issues?
15:28:52 <brent> Topic: Issue Discussion
15:28:59 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Abefore-CR+-label%3A%22pending+close%22+sort%3Aupdated-asc
15:29:25 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Abefore-CR+-label%3A%22pending+close%22+sort%3Aupdated-asc+-label%3Apost-CR+
15:29:45 <Orie> brent: all the isssues that need to be triaged, ordered by LRU
15:29:51 <Orie> ... our goal is to label all issues
15:30:08 <Orie> ... we need a label and assignment, or to close
15:30:19 <Orie> ... in general horizontal review
15:30:19 <Orie> q+
15:30:26 <brent> ack Orie
15:31:07 <manu> Orie: I think Kyle had pointed out that PING horizontal review had not started yet for VC-JWT, he was doing review for VCDM, did we fail to register the PING horizontal review for VC-JWT directly? Is PING supposed to do VCDM and VC-JWT at same time?
15:31:30 <Orie> brent: I thought the chairs had send all these things off at the same time... we need to make sure PING horizontal review happens
15:31:46 <manu> VCDM request to PING is here: https://github.com/w3cping/privacy-request/issues/121
15:32:11 <Orie> brent: I don't see vc-jwt here.
15:32:19 <ivan> q+
15:32:27 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-jwt/issues/93
15:32:31 <Orie> mnau: seems tag was submitted but not PING
15:32:42 <brent> ack ivan
15:33:05 <Orie> ivan: we are creating difficulty for the reviewers... by having so many parallel work items
15:33:24 <Orie> ... horizontal reviewers might not realize these are related rec track documents
15:33:32 <Orie> ... this could cause things to be blocked.
15:33:44 <Orie> ... can the chairs bundle the requests?
15:33:52 <Orie> ... can we get them all reviewed at once?
15:34:12 <Orie> brent: I can ask them how they want us to handle it'
15:34:29 <Orie> brent: Orie, please initiate the ping review for vc-jose-cose
15:34:40 <manu> +1 to Horizontal Reviews as "before CR"
15:34:51 <Orie> brent: seems these reviews are needed before CR
15:35:23 <Orie> ... oliver I want to assign you to the issue regarding accessibility
15:35:40 <Orie> ... oliver I want to assign you the security questionaire
15:35:51 <Orie> ... internationalization is already assigned
15:36:03 <Orie> oliver: I created these a while ago....
15:36:17 <manu> q+
15:36:18 <Orie> brent: if they have questions, they will ask you.
15:36:31 <Orie> brent: next up 1158
15:36:45 <brent> ack manu
15:37:12 <Orie> manu: for folks assigned, you might watch their issue tracker closesly... we will need to address their issues.
15:37:33 <Orie> ... and keep addressing issues as they are raised.... not a passive role
15:37:46 <Orie> ... need issues raised to be addressed as they are raised
15:37:50 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1138
15:38:04 <Orie> brent: missing security considerations... seems post CR
15:38:08 <manu> +1 to after CR
15:38:38 <Orie> brent: who will be assigned?
15:38:57 <Orie> gabe: I can take it
15:39:13 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1128
15:39:23 <Orie> brent: change credential subject to subject'
15:39:24 <manu> q+
15:39:25 <Orie> brent: change credential subject to subject
15:39:29 <brent> ack manu
15:39:47 <Orie> manu: strong -1 to this, there is no need to break things... we have URLs locked in
15:39:51 <decentralgabe> q+
15:39:54 <Orie> ... its what we have used for a long time
15:40:05 <Orie> ... its pre CR, but I propose we close it
15:40:10 <PL-ASU> +1 to closing this one.
15:40:11 <dlongley> +1 to close and not spend time on it
15:40:12 <brent> ack decentralgabe
15:40:33 <manu> q+
15:40:34 <Orie> gabe: the term has caused a lot of confusion, I am not swayed by breaking changes before CR
15:40:39 <Orie> ... I think we should consider it
15:40:39 <brent> ack manu
15:40:40 <Orie> q+
15:40:53 <Orie> Manu: people have been using the term for years
15:41:03 <Orie> ... v2 would be different from v1
15:41:09 <decentralgabe> we have "broken" expirationDate
15:41:24 <Orie> ... the suggestion that change the name will fix confusion is unfounded.
15:41:32 <brent> q+
15:41:40 <Orie> ... people will be confused regardless, I don't find the argument compelling
15:41:43 <PL-ASU> Also this is terminology was used (CredentialSubject) is used in the 1Edtech VC compatible standards for OBv3 and CLRv2
15:41:50 <Orie> ... seems not worth it to fix it
15:41:56 <brent> ack Orie
15:42:37 <JoeAndrieu> q+ to say this isn't fundamental and doesn't justify the effort
15:42:55 <manu> Orie: We made several breaking changes between v1 and v2, in v1 issuanceDate -> validFrom -- that's fundamental to the security property, all of the claims are already being adjusted by a breaking change, regarding time, most important time of all cryptography. Not swayed by argument that we shouldn't break backwards compatability.
15:43:10 <brent> ack brent
15:43:12 <manu> Orie: We use holder, but we use credential subject, I disagree, I thikn people will find it more intuitive than what we have.
15:43:12 <dlongley> q+ to say there are different places and communities that breaking changes "hit" and those different places and communities have different scales / sizes
15:43:28 <Orie> brent: I have made my opinions clear, I have no desire to have this conversation again
15:43:35 <Orie> ... charter says we can make breaking changes
15:43:58 <ivan> q+
15:44:04 <manu> brent: I have made my opinions clear in the issue -- I have no desire to have this conversation again. I will note that our charter allows us to come to consensus aruond breaking changes. My only response to Manu is "people expressing confusion around credentialSubject", they say "why didn't you name it subject" -- anecdotal, having been repeated numerous times, havinv said that, happy to close this issue w/ no action.
15:44:06 <Orie> ... if people are saying they are confused... they say.. why didn't you name it "subject"... anecdotal, but I have heard this... before
15:44:06 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:44:06 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to say this isn't fundamental and doesn't justify the effort
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15:44:31 <Orie> JoeAndrieu: I wanted to talk about this
15:44:37 <will_> will_ has joined #vcwg
15:44:48 <Orie> ... feels like we are allowed to make breaking changes with consensus
15:45:02 <Orie> ... we can't make a breaking change, without consensus
15:45:26 <PL-ASU> q+
15:45:26 <Orie> ... this is confusion, not a fundamental security problem
15:45:26 <brent> ack dlongley
15:45:27 <Zakim> dlongley, you wanted to say there are different places and communities that breaking changes "hit" and those different places and communities have different scales / sizes
15:45:32 <PL-ASU> q+
15:45:38 <brent> zakim, close the queue
15:45:38 <Zakim> ok, brent, the speaker queue is closed
15:46:00 <Orie> dlongley: similar to what joes said... people have opinions on if a change is worth it... some security changes are worth it...
15:46:13 <Orie> ... changes in other areas, might impact people beyond developers
15:46:19 <brent> ack ivan
15:46:52 <Orie> ivan: not taking a side, but fact... we have an agreement, that all URLs in the vocab will not disapear, in practice this means the URL will not change, even if the json member changes
15:46:59 <Orie> ... we can't change the URL
15:47:13 <brent> ack PL-ASU
15:47:48 <Orie> PL-ASU: both the standards we use for edu, have credentialSubject in their spec
15:47:51 <brent> zakim, open the queue
15:47:51 <Zakim> ok, brent, the speaker queue is open
15:47:54 <Orie> ... they are both new specs
15:48:08 <Orie> ... <inaudible>
15:48:19 <ivan> In our agreement old URL-s do not disappear, so credentialSubject will become _deprecated_ and subject will come in as a new term (with both in their own URL-s)
15:48:33 <Orie> brent: I suggest this be labeled as pending close, rather than before CR
15:48:42 <Orie> ... I don't see possibility of consensus here.
15:48:59 <brent> suptopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/950
15:49:08 <Orie> brent: multiple schemas
15:49:09 <Orie> q+
15:49:19 <decentralgabe> q+
15:49:21 <brent> ack Orie
15:50:00 <manu> Orie: I implemented support for this recently, essentially the recommendation that I have is that we treat this property like all the other properties... object or array of object w/ array and type. I already have a working implementation that supports multiple schemas, would object if that is made illegal before CR
15:50:00 <manu> q+
15:50:02 <brent> ack decentralgabe
15:50:22 <brent> ack manu
15:50:31 <Orie> gabe: I think we are agreed, you can have multiple, and the processing rules are determined by each schema type
15:50:47 <Orie> manu: +1 to both, the type property is what tells you what to do
15:50:54 <Orie> brent: seems its before CR
15:51:02 <Orie> ivan: its normative
15:51:13 <manu> q+
15:51:13 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1126
15:51:25 <Orie> brent: address credential vs verifiable credential
15:51:34 <Orie> ... we tried to address this, not sure what is left
15:51:35 <brent> ack manu
15:51:42 <Orie> manu: this is before CR
15:51:49 <Orie> ... I can be the backstop on it
15:52:14 <Orie> ... we have... 702 statements of the word credential "446" for verifiable credential
15:52:29 <Orie> ... editors will need to address "credential vs verifable credential"
15:52:41 <Orie> ... there are some issues remaining...
15:53:01 <Orie> ... we need to adjust the language of the spec, but its a lot of work
15:53:17 <Orie> brent: thanks, I will try to help
15:53:30 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/942
15:53:32 <manu> q+
15:53:34 <Orie> brent: recommends, creation of a new role
15:53:42 <brent> ack manu
15:53:44 <Orie> ... issuee, assigned to oliver
15:53:48 <Orie> manu: -1 to a new role
15:54:02 <Orie> ... every time we try, everyone seems to push back
15:54:24 <Orie> ... not clear we need a new role, seems more non normative text would help, and this could be post PR
15:54:40 <Orie> ... we can explain the behavior better in post CR
15:54:51 <brent> POLL: Should we create a new 'Issuee' role?
15:54:54 <manu> -1 to new issuee role
15:54:55 <oliver> -1
15:54:56 <brent> -1
15:54:56 <JoeAndrieu> -1
15:54:58 <ivan> 0
15:54:58 <dlongley> -1
15:54:59 <PL-ASU> -1
15:55:00 <Orie> -1 to new issuee role
15:55:06 <TallTed> 0
15:55:08 <decentralgabe> -1, but think we should clarify "holder"
15:55:09 <kgriffin> 0
15:55:27 <Orie> brent: seems we should do this post CR, with editorial changes
15:55:31 <Orie> manu: correct
15:55:55 <Orie> brent: 13 open issues not triaged remain
15:56:10 <Orie> brent: we need to keep making progress
15:56:39 <Orie> brent: if you want to demo during TPAC, contact the chairs
15:56:41 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/12-vcwg-minutes.html ivan
15:56:53 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
15:56:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, pauld, TallTed, andres, brent, cabernet, decentralgabe, hsano, will, PL-ASU, manu, dlongley, orie, oliver, pauld_gs1, JoeAndrieu,
15:56:56 <Zakim> ... griffin, steve_c
15:56:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:56:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/12-vcwg-minutes.html Zakim
15:57:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:57:04 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:57:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:57:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #vcwg