13:53:15 RRSAgent has joined #me 13:53:19 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-irc 13:54:28 meeting: Media and Entertainment IG 13:56:22 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 13:58:21 present+ Chris_Needham, Jason_White 13:58:33 present+ Janina_Sajka 13:59:12 ChrisLorenzo has joined #me 13:59:16 nigel has joined #me 13:59:26 present+ Chris_Lorenzo 13:59:37 present+ Hisayuki_Ohmata 13:59:47 present+ Kinji_Matsumura 14:00:08 present+ Ryo_Yasuoka 14:00:51 jasonjgw has joined #me 14:01:09 present+ Nigel_Megitt 14:01:22 present+ Matthew_Atkinson 14:01:34 rrsagent, make log public 14:01:35 matatk has joined #me 14:01:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:01:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 14:02:12 chair: Chris_Nedham, Chris_Lorenzo 14:02:30 ohmata has joined #me 14:03:10 present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 14:03:14 tidoust has joined #me 14:03:16 chair+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 14:03:25 present+ Francois_Daoust 14:03:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:03:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 14:04:11 topic: Joint discussion with APA WG 14:04:24 igarashi has joined #me 14:04:39 present+ 14:04:53 cpn: Chris Needham from BBC, one of the MEIG co-Chairs 14:05:16 cl: Chris Lorenzo from Comcast, also MEIG co-Chairs 14:05:35 ti: Tatsuya Igarashi from Sony Group, another MEIG co-Chair 14:05:37 scribe+ cpn 14:05:45 s/co-Chairs/co-Chair/ 14:05:59 i/Chris Needham/scribenick: kaz/ 14:06:20 i/CHris Needham/subtopic: Introduction/ 14:06:46 i/Chris Needham/subtopic: Introduction/ 14:06:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:06:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 14:07:26 Janina: We came up with the MAUR, it was a success, made sure it was supported, there's room for improvement in UA support, it started us on other directions in the research questions TF an APA 14:08:00 i/Janina/(Janina and Matthew are the APA co-Chairs)/ 14:08:35 Matthew: I'm the other co-chair of APA, at TPGI, I also develop browser extensions, based in London 14:09:20 Jason: I'm facilitator in the RQ TF, the TF is designed to develop documents to set out requirements to enable future and enable web technologies to be more accessibility to people with disabilities 14:09:46 .. It's also a linking mechanism between review and development of W3C specs and the research community 14:10:22 ... It has a function to inform the APA WG and other groups of research and important proposals and ideas for accessibility for emerging technologies 14:10:42 ... I facilitate together with Scott Hollier 14:11:07 present+ John_Riviello 14:11:41 Nigel: I chair TTWG, where we plan to have a joint meeting at TPAC 14:11:58 Kaz: I'm team contact for this group, and WoT 14:12:37 Louay has joined #me 14:12:49 present+ Louay_Bassbouss 14:12:57 Ohmata: I'm from NHK, public broadcaster, working on broadcast/broadband solutions. Accessibility is very important 14:13:20 Yasuoka: I'm also from NHK 14:13:25 JohnRiv has joined #me 14:13:45 Matsumura: I'm in R&D at NHK 14:14:04 John_Riviello: I'm at Comcast 14:14:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:14:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 14:15:08 Francois: I'm W3C team, for media 14:15:18 Louay: Fraunhofer FOKUS 14:15:24 Topic: Media Accessibility User Requirements 14:15:30 https://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/ 14:15:44 present+ 14:16:13 Janina: Some people in this call were involved in the details. It covers things like captions, described video. Inter-linear synchronisation 14:16:31 ... People thought it was interesting, but not implemented in specifications. Bible translations, Hebrew and Greek 14:17:00 ... One thing we like to look at is can we do more with synchronising images. Can we show a Beethoven score as you watch an orchestra? 14:17:15 ... That's an edge case. One area to explore 14:17:41 ... One more, more achievable, is semantically labelling labels of a large format video. If you have a play, you have a time offset and a text string 14:18:08 ... Accessibility need is supporitng people not on the web, Bliss, they're not in web content as they don't have a Rosetta stone 14:18:36 .. We now have one in FPWD, authoring in the symbol set they recognise. A spec in CR, requires we can add attributes to a chapter mark 14:18:51 ... If we can do that, why can't we nest them, so we can do Act 1 Scene 1, Scene 2 in a play 14:19:25 ... The symbol languages aren't new. They're successful before the web. They're not in the web because people know *a* symbol language but not *your* language 14:19:34 ... So needs a Rosetta stone, spec at W3C 14:20:15 Matthew: Other things we want to touch on are embedded media, MusicXML, also multiple tracks of sign language 14:20:54 Jason: The MAUR sets out the user needs and requirements in relation to media in general. It's a relatively comprehensive document, to influence the development of specs and implementations 14:21:13 ... The purpose of the current effort is to revise the document to bring it up to date with current needs wrt media 14:21:30 present+ Xabier_Rodríguez_Calvar 14:21:34 ... That includes requirements gathering, to be as thorough as possible, to ensure new requirements are identified and documented 14:22:20 Janina: So we'll write up the requirements, look at implications on authoring, UA support, implementation support. We expect the answer is some yes, some not yet 14:22:47 q+ 14:22:48 Jason: That's separate to the requirements document, we'd expect progressive implementation as the requirements move to specification 14:23:13 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/ Media Accessibility User Requirements (2015 Note) 14:23:19 Nigel: You mentioned interlinear synchronisation, can you explain? 14:23:55 Janina: biblegateway.com lets you bring up any portion, it has English and on the line below, the original Greek or Hebrew - which is interesting as you have LTR and RTL 14:24:32 ... You may also do for Beowulf or Chaucer, other ways it can be useful. Is it media or is it e-pub? 14:24:40 Nigel: Is it related to audio or video media? 14:24:56 q+ 14:25:11 Janina: Not sure how they're doing it. In ePub 3.3 we use SMIL with audio and video tracks. Can pick the syncrhonisation level, paragraph or word level 14:25:17 ack 14:25:26 s/ack// 14:25:30 q- 14:25:31 ... If you can do at the word level, you can highlight the word on screen as the text is read, by a TTS engine 14:25:36 s/ePub/EPUB/ 14:25:55 calvaris has joined #me 14:26:01 ... People otherwise wouldn't understand the content. We can do a better job in the 2.0 update, where it's critical 14:26:39 ... Synchronisation, learning resources, and it's coming to general populations 14:27:14 Jason: Another good use case is an operatic performance where the music and video might need to be synchronised at some level of granulatity, the user can follow along appropriately 14:27:45 ... There are use cases that involve A/V tracks, others are purely textual, but the two are related. As soon as you have parallel translations, multiple languages, translation to A/V tracks 14:28:14 Janina: An app in Broadway theatres, will sync the translation to your preferred language. galipro.com (?) 14:28:37 Nigel: Trying to understand the point of differentiation with captions, timed transcripts 14:28:52 ... If you have text associated with times in the media, it sounds like captions 14:28:57 Janina: It's similar, yes 14:29:17 Nigel: If you have another synchronisation source, that's different 14:29:18 s/galipro.com (?)/www.galapro.com/ 14:29:52 Janina: The UA isn't the synchronisation source. Benetech and EPUB is the isual time text case, we've had forever 14:30:22 Nigel: Because the UA is playing the media it knows the timing source, different to the theatre case where you're synchronising to something outside the UA 14:30:41 ... For the EPUB case, it seems that it's the text driving sync with the media, rather than the other way around 14:30:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:30:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 14:31:10 Jason: Adding to that, there's potentially multiple levels of heirarchical navigation, int he media and the text document 14:31:34 s/int he/in the/ 14:31:36 ... It describes the problem space, captions describes part of it, but not all 14:32:08 Janina: I thnk there's a lot of room for semantic navigation improvement. I thought we'd be further along 14:32:33 Jason: One task is for the MAUR to reflect these use cases, that process is under way 14:33:04 q+ 14:33:06 ... Another is to connect that to future work on specs 14:33:47 Kaz: Thank you for your points, Janina and Matthew. I've been working on multimodal interaction for a while. This discussion related to multimodality for the recent web 14:34:24 ... We should think about geolocation and the situation of the user in the moment, as well as their ordinary setting. Important for services in the future, smart cities and metaverse 14:34:49 ... How to let people access these services based on preferred modality and method. We should think about that wider scope too? 14:35:09 Janina: Sounds good to me. I'd like to also support from IoT and smart city point of view? 14:35:29 s/I'd like to also support from IoT and smart city point of view?// 14:35:31 Kaz: I'd like to also support from IoT and smart city point of view? 14:35:34 s/Topic: Media Accessibility User Requirements/subtopic: Media Accessibility User Requirements/ 14:35:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:35:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 14:35:55 s/view?/view/ 14:35:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:35:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 14:36:09 Nigel: In the bigger picture with MAUR, with terminology, how it interacts with horizontal review. Any issues open that need to be resolved on that? 14:36:42 ... I just tried to do the FAST self questionnaire, some of the terms seemed jargon I wasn't sure what they mean. Do you have a plan to update? 14:37:04 q+ 14:37:09 ack k 14:37:14 Janina: We are standing up a FAST TF to improve the questionnaire, and do a better job gathering the fucntional requirements to describe accessibilty concerns 14:37:20 ack n 14:37:57 ... We're looking for times to start work. It was Michael Cooper's project. FAST will continue, we know we need to work on it 14:39:00 Janina: On terminology, no issues specifically, but we have had some discussion on building a WAI-wide glossary. We'd expect the FAST and MAUR work to help us do better 14:39:12 q? 14:39:44 Matthew: Thank you Nigel for filing issues on the FAST repositiory, we'll be addressing those in the TF 14:40:04 ... If there's terminology you found esoteric, please let us know. Your feedback is appreciated! 14:40:57 Nigel: The area I'm conscious of is where there are existing techniques in use, such as "dubbing" and "AD", that could be described in a more theoreitical way, different modalities, alternate presentations 14:41:10 ... Those are more abstract, difficult relate back to what poeple are doing 14:41:26 q? 14:41:54 Janina: We have this with MAUR 1.0, how different devices might help, a section on second screen, but it could be a bluetooth headset, it works 14:42:12 Matthew: I made a note of that example, we could solve by adding more examples 14:42:13 q? 14:42:16 ack m? 14:42:52 Jason: For the TF, have we gathered all the requirements coming from specs in development at W3C? 14:43:39 ... The connection to AR/VR, there's a separate doc on that. W3C is engaged in ongoing collaboration on XR. So a question is are there additional sources of requirements that might need to be considered? 14:44:01 Janina: We're eager to hear from hear, what's on your horizon that we should be thinking about 14:44:55 q+ ChrisLorenzo 14:45:11 atai has joined #me 14:45:43 ChrisN: Picture in Picture accessibility issue 14:46:28 Janina: Multiple tracks of sign language, we have deaf participation in our meetings facilitated by ASL, so arguablble multiple PiP tracks, they'll have use cases in education for people who are deaf 14:46:34 q+ 14:46:51 ChrisN: Also looking at RTC? 14:47:49 Janina: Yes, we have a separate document on that. We do see RTC slowly getting better for accessbiliity. We're generally happy with Zoom, but still somethings can happen. One thing they took on board, you can pin the signer next to the video who whey are interpreting 14:48:00 ... Keeping those side by side is important 14:48:20 *AURs: 14:48:20 Media: https://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/ 14:48:20 XR: https://www.w3.org/TR/xaur/ 14:48:20 RTC: https://www.w3.org/TR/raur/ 14:48:21 Collaboration tools: https://www.w3.org/TR/ctaur/ 14:48:23 Also we have Accessibility of Remote Meetings: https://www.w3.org/TR/remote-meetings/ 14:48:29 Jason: Another area in the TF, not involving media yet, is collaborative editiing environments. So if anyone is working on that for media, it's an area we could look at in future 14:48:33 q? 14:48:43 ack mat 14:48:46 ack Chr 14:49:25 ChrisL: As we build TV UI in Lightning using canvas, which bypasses ARIA tags in HTML, are there any APIs available to hook into ARIA capabilities for non-HTML languages? 14:50:02 Janina: Worth capturing for our meeting with ARIA. There was a need for canvas identified. At the time we had canvas support we were reasonably happy with 14:50:40 ... It's a good time to be looking at things like this. ARIA just finished 1.2, now a Recommendation. They're looking to what's next, so excellent time how we support canvas, support other use cases 14:51:24 ... We want to be taking to each other, not working in silos. OpenUI is looking at similar things as we've discussed today 14:51:37 ... EPUB 3.3 is in maintenance mode, now looking ahead 14:52:13 Jason: Associating regions of a 2D canvas with ARIA roles, but hadn't been worked out for 3D. That was a while ago, may be new developments 14:52:48 Matthew: Discussed at the W3C Web Games workshop. I'm also thinking about AOM, which could be the vehicle 14:52:54 q? 14:53:45 Kaz: Which direction is expected from APA? Extend the existing requirements document, or collect use cases for a new requirements document? 14:54:28 Janina: My top thing would be updating the existing linear chapter in media. Doesn't support what we need. We will have show and tell ready by TPAC to explain why it's important 14:55:18 ... Big users of YouTube, can't use text, so they need to be able to navigate how they expect. Also, what else? Markup support for chapters, to reference the id in the Rosetta stone 14:55:57 ... That should be low hanging fruit. We'll also talk with EOWG, brings users with accessibility needs not supported by the web in the past. It's a big number of people 14:56:43 Kaz: Interested in a11y for web payments and verifiable credentials too. 14:57:17 s/Interested/Personally interested/ 14:57:34 s/too/too, but we should start with the priority topics you mentioned./ 14:57:51 topic: TPAC 2023 14:58:09 cpn: TPAC schedule on the slide 14:58:20 ... MEIG on Monday 14:58:33 ... Media WG also Monday (afternoon) 14:58:48 ... agenda for MEIG includes 14:59:08 ... inviting John and Louay on CTA WAVE updates 14:59:30 ... then TV application development 14:59:37 ... joint meeting with TTWG 14:59:59 ... and priorities for the next year 15:00:20 ... potential topics include media provenance and next-generation audio 15:00:36 present+ 15:00:47 ... MEIG meeting will be held Monday morning 15:01:25 jasonjgw has left #me 15:01:30 janina: thank you for hosting the discussion today 15:01:37 cpn: thank YOU 15:02:03 ... we'll keep open on the collaboration 15:02:27 mat/jason: thanks! 15:02:30 [adjourned] 15:02:34 atai has left #me 15:02:43 i/TPAC schedule/scribenick: kaz/ 15:02:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:02:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html kaz 15:07:48 s/isual/usual/ 15:10:19 s/supporitng/supporting/ 15:13:04 s/theoreitical/theoretical/ 15:13:17 s/difficult relate back/difficult to relate back/ 15:13:52 s/to hear from hear/to hear from you/ 15:14:54 s/Picture in Picture accessibility issue/This reminds me, I was looking recently at an open review issue on Picture in Picture API in Media WG, on accessibility of controls in the PiP window/ 15:15:26 s/editiing/editing/ 15:17:15 i/TPAC schedule/https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nSZ6BTmdUee7_kq4UFrCZeB6-rtSXg_MheJb_hu9rk0/edit/ 15:18:37 s/MEIG meeting will be held Monday morning/The agenda is still in development, things may move around. Please get in touch if there are items you want to cover. We also have the option to propose breakouts on the Wednesday/ 15:18:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:18:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-me-minutes.html cpn