IRC log of epub-fxl on 2023-07-11
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:51:07 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl
- 12:51:11 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-epub-fxl-irc
- 12:51:11 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 12:51:12 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
- 12:52:13 [wendyreid]
- meeting: FXL Accessibility Meeting 11 July 2023
- 12:52:23 [wendyreid]
- chair: wendyreid
- 12:58:20 [Rachel_Osolen]
- Rachel_Osolen has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:01:47 [gpellegrino]
- gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:01:54 [gpellegrino]
- present+
- 13:01:59 [sue-neu]
- sue-neu has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:02:03 [CircularKen]
- CircularKen has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:02:22 [jamesY]
- jamesY has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:02:28 [jamesY]
- present+
- 13:02:32 [sue-neu]
- present+
- 13:02:50 [duga_]
- duga_ has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:02:56 [JonasLillqvist]
- JonasLillqvist has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:03:05 [duga_]
- present+
- 13:06:09 [Naomi]
- Naomi has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:06:09 [CircularKen]
- present+
- 13:06:09 [Naomi]
- present+
- 13:06:24 [CharlesL]
- CharlesL has joined #EPUB-FXL
- 13:06:36 [duga_]
- scribe+
- 13:06:50 [jgriggs]
- jgriggs has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:06:50 [CharlesL]
- present+
- 13:06:52 [duga_]
- wendyreid: Compaints about Toronta public transit
- 13:06:59 [wendyreid]
- https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/wiki/Fixed-Layout-Accessibility-Taskforce
- 13:07:12 [jgriggs]
- present+
- 13:07:32 [duga_]
- ... Summarized matrix of features/formats - see link above
- 13:08:25 [duga_]
- ... the original document distilled everything to 4 basic types that appear in fixed layout
- 13:08:46 [duga_]
- ... There was way too much in illustrative works (comics, illustrated books, etc)
- 13:08:55 [duga_]
- ... At least need to break out comics
- 13:09:10 [duga_]
- ... And now we have an empty column for proposed solutions
- 13:09:34 [duga_]
- ... because different content needs different solutions (e.g. comics vs text books)
- 13:09:44 [wendyreid]
- q?
- 13:10:13 [gautier]
- gautier has joined #epub-fxl
- 13:10:27 [duga_]
- sue-neu: Agreed, especially with comics where you may want to rearrange panels
- 13:11:56 [duga_]
- wendyreid: There is still some more breakdown we can do
- 13:12:40 [duga_]
- ... So what are the solutions?
- 13:13:00 [gpellegrino]
- q+
- 13:13:04 [wendyreid]
- ack gpellegrino
- 13:13:43 [duga_]
- gpellegrino: For comics I don't really know, maybe Hadrien does. But for the first one I would say HTML or SVG techniques
- 13:13:51 [duga_]
- ... Same for the second one
- 13:13:57 [sue-neu]
- q+
- 13:14:05 [duga_]
- ... and maybe also the third one
- 13:14:17 [wendyreid]
- ack sue-neu
- 13:14:46 [duga_]
- sue-neu: For children's picture books, something that came up was hybrid epubs
- 13:15:13 [duga_]
- ... where you can convert from fixed to reflow
- 13:15:21 [duga_]
- ... Also multiple renditions
- 13:16:02 [duga_]
- Naomi: There is also mixed fixed/flowing
- 13:16:12 [duga_]
- ... where only the pages that need to be are fixed
- 13:16:38 [gpellegrino]
- q+
- 13:16:40 [duga_]
- ... both this strategy and multiple renditions have been around forever
- 13:16:58 [duga_]
- ... But if you COULD make it reflow, why not just do only that?
- 13:17:02 [sue-neu]
- q+
- 13:17:05 [wendyreid]
- ack gpellegrino
- 13:17:29 [duga_]
- gpellegrino: I think it is possible to mix fixed/reflow
- 13:18:14 [duga_]
- ... For the first 3 I would add we could add some algorithm to generate reflow for that (automatically done by reading system)
- 13:18:20 [duga_]
- q+
- 13:18:44 [duga_]
- wendyreid: Visual/textual has been proposed multiple times
- 13:19:09 [duga_]
- ... Maybe instead of a book feature, maybe make it a reading system feature
- 13:19:21 [duga_]
- Naomi: I still want control over how that content looks
- 13:19:42 [gpellegrino]
- q+
- 13:19:55 [duga_]
- ... Need to be clear what formatting has to stay (or has to go)
- 13:20:04 [CharlesL]
- q+
- 13:20:15 [wendyreid]
- ack sue-neu
- 13:20:23 [gautier]
- q+
- 13:20:30 [duga_]
- sue-neu: What is visual/textual idea?
- 13:20:37 [duga_]
- ... Where are the docs?!
- 13:20:55 [wendyreid]
- https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/60
- 13:21:08 [wendyreid]
- https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/23
- 13:21:27 [duga_]
- ... If you can make fixed reflow, why not? Because for early readers you may want fixed even if it can be made reflow
- 13:22:02 [duga_]
- Naomi: Agreed for kids books, but cookbooks, etc it seems odd
- 13:22:09 [wendyreid]
- scribe+
- 13:22:17 [wendyreid]
- ack duga_
- 13:22:51 [duga_]
- Naomi: This is a good case for fixed and flowing
- 13:23:13 [wendyreid]
- duga_: Wanted to generalize what Naomi was saying about mixed fixed and flowing
- 13:23:25 [wendyreid]
- ... we did it with multiple renditions and it didn't go anywhere
- 13:23:49 [wendyreid]
- ... we discourage FXL, but if we gave tools to make that possible, and if we got RX implementations of mixed fixed and flowing, that would show publishers
- 13:24:16 [wendyreid]
- ... it's an important path to go down, we need to give content creators tools to use FXL sparingly
- 13:24:37 [wendyreid]
- ack gpellegrino
- 13:25:09 [wendyreid]
- q+ Ken
- 13:25:22 [duga_]
- gpellegrino: Guidance on fixed to reflow - a well known fixed layout format has provided a way to create html from their format
- 13:25:26 [wendyreid]
- ack CharlesL
- 13:25:29 [duga_]
- ... We should be able to do that
- 13:25:55 [duga_]
- CharlesL: This idea of visual vs textual view, this is something that was already done ages ago
- 13:26:37 [duga_]
- ... Pushing back on styling, for someone who needs the text they often want to drop the styles
- 13:26:46 [wendyreid]
- ack gautier
- 13:26:54 [duga_]
- ... so textual needs to be truly just the text so it can be styled as I need it
- 13:27:32 [duga_]
- gautier: Working with specialized readers, there are some complexities to add formats
- 13:27:50 [duga_]
- ... Something that is working is fallbacks
- 13:28:00 [duga_]
- ... for instance on devices with no screens
- 13:28:45 [duga_]
- ... This isn't an edge case, we should take into consideration this working solution (fallback to xhtml)
- 13:28:47 [wendyreid]
- ack Ken
- 13:29:30 [duga_]
- Ken: I like fixed layout! It can be very useful for well designed pages to exist
- 13:30:17 [duga_]
- ... Maybe a simple CSS switch could be used to leave the basic styling of the page (bold, italic), but drop the fixed layout stuff (positioning)
- 13:30:21 [CharlesL]
- +1 to Basic CSS (could work :)
- 13:30:33 [duga_]
- wendyreid: I don't think anyone wants to get rid of fixed layout
- 13:31:06 [duga_]
- s/Ken/CircularKen/
- 13:31:28 [duga_]
- CircularKen: Don't discard the meaning of remaining in the fixed layout page
- 13:31:49 [sue-neu]
- q+
- 13:31:54 [wendyreid]
- ack sue-neu
- 13:31:56 [duga_]
- wendyreid: A11y doesn't just mean visual - layout can be important for some a11y use cases
- 13:32:19 [duga_]
- sue-neu: What do you mean by CSS switch? media queries or amp?
- 13:32:55 [duga_]
- CircularKen: Not an expert, but some sort of switch when you open or read the book
- 13:33:14 [duga_]
- ... Having a single version you can just switch between seems very elegant
- 13:33:41 [duga_]
- wendyreid: I see a switch like this as a reading system feature
- 13:33:43 [duga_]
- q+
- 13:33:59 [wendyreid]
- ack duga_
- 13:34:02 [wendyreid]
- duga_:
- 13:34:19 [wendyreid]
- duga_: CSS switch has been done a few times with varying degress of success
- 13:34:28 [wendyreid]
- ... day/night mode, vertical/horizontal mode
- 13:34:32 [wendyreid]
- ... alternate stylesheets
- 13:34:39 [wendyreid]
- ... it was horrible and hard to implement
- 13:34:56 [wendyreid]
- ... we implemented horizontal/vertical, but it was intended to be user-driven
- 13:35:08 [wendyreid]
- ... the other place more successfully was media-overlays
- 13:35:21 [wendyreid]
- ... we inject classes into the content to cause the content to be rendered differently
- 13:35:42 [wendyreid]
- ... the reading system renders the book based on the CSS provided by the content creator
- 13:35:50 [wendyreid]
- ... simply by adding a class to the root element
- 13:37:01 [wendyreid]
- duga_: I don't know about implementation, I think it was a bad feature
- 13:37:07 [wendyreid]
- ... I wouldn't recommend anyone implement today
- 13:37:23 [wendyreid]
- Naomi: Could we use the same mechanisms to do a reflow/fixed switch?
- 13:37:27 [CircularKen]
- q+
- 13:37:32 [wendyreid]
- duga_: No, the way we did it was a matrix
- 13:37:47 [wendyreid]
- ... completely unrelated things, but needed all these stylesheets
- 13:37:56 [wendyreid]
- ... but it doesn't make much sense
- 13:38:07 [wendyreid]
- ... if we added another feature, the matrix gets even more complex
- 13:38:17 [wendyreid]
- ... maybe media-overlays, much better support
- 13:39:02 [wendyreid]
- ack CircularKen
- 13:39:29 [duga_]
- CircularKen: I know one likes visual to textual, but it is better to fixed layout to reflowable
- 13:39:43 [duga_]
- ... It is really prepaginated to not prepaginated
- 13:40:25 [duga_]
- wendyreid: Prepaginated and reflow are global but they can be overridden for each element
- 13:40:32 [duga_]
- ... at least that is how it is written now
- 13:40:52 [duga_]
- ... Maybe this is global?
- 13:40:53 [duga_]
- q+
- 13:40:58 [wendyreid]
- ack duga_
- 13:41:51 [wendyreid]
- duga_: I don't think it has to, always view pre-pag as a global default, every individual item as a toggle, but the default is the global setting
- 13:41:55 [wendyreid]
- ... just an impression
- 13:42:22 [wendyreid]
- ... I don't know if this would need to be a global property, I don't think the content would suddenly would not be pre-paginated
- 13:42:43 [wendyreid]
- ... if i had a pre-paginated page, and I changed the CSS, it doesn't get merged into the surrounding pages
- 13:42:56 [wendyreid]
- ... it feels targeted, this page has this CSS override
- 13:43:05 [wendyreid]
- ... every page could have it's own property for that
- 13:43:23 [sue-neu]
- q+
- 13:43:28 [wendyreid]
- ... when you enter the reflow mode, every page gets the CSS for reflow
- 13:43:33 [wendyreid]
- ack sue-neu
- 13:43:49 [duga_]
- sue-neu: I agree this could be a local setting vs global
- 13:44:16 [duga_]
- ... maybe comparing pages across media types (e.g. knowing the page you are on in a classroom)
- 13:44:27 [duga_]
- wendyreid: Yeah, wouldn't want to merge pages
- 13:45:20 [duga_]
- ... What meant about global vs spine, the default is reflow
- 13:45:34 [duga_]
- ... So you have to specify pre-paginated
- 13:45:42 [duga_]
- q+
- 13:46:06 [duga_]
- The sooner you can tell the RS what the features are the better
- 13:46:09 [wendyreid]
- ack duga_
- 13:46:43 [wendyreid]
- duga_: I kind of agree because I did it that way, I also disagree because it backed me into a corner with not supporting a feature I wanted to, mixed fxl and reflow
- 13:46:53 [wendyreid]
- ... now I assume everything is that global default
- 13:47:16 [wendyreid]
- ... I disagree that it's any harder by spine item, you better use the spine to know what is coming
- 13:47:25 [wendyreid]
- ... RS reading the spine
- 13:47:38 [wendyreid]
- ... I would agree if it was buried in the content itself, since it's late in the game
- 13:47:43 [wendyreid]
- ... if it's in the manifest
- 13:48:06 [duga_]
- wendyreid: I would be happy with a global property that says it is mixed
- 13:48:20 [wendyreid]
- duga_: Not sure if its necessary, just walk through the spine
- 13:48:22 [CharlesL]
- q+
- 13:48:40 [wendyreid]
- ack CharlesL
- 13:49:18 [duga_]
- CharlesL: Yeah, I guess. Knowing if it is one, the other, or both, would be helpful for libraries and bookstores etc
- 13:49:22 [duga_]
- q+
- 13:49:32 [wendyreid]
- ack duga_
- 13:49:56 [wendyreid]
- duga_: I believe that metadata is already there and can be used by libraries/bookstores, but if they are not, it's their problem
- 13:50:03 [wendyreid]
- ... you can parse the manifest to find the values
- 13:50:18 [CircularKen]
- q+
- 13:50:25 [wendyreid]
- ack CircularKen
- 13:50:57 [duga_]
- CircularKen: What is the easiest thing to do? Is book level the easiest? maybe do that first?
- 13:51:28 [duga_]
- wendyreid: From a spec perspective, the easiest is to say that it already exists
- 13:51:37 [duga_]
- ... Job done!
- 13:52:01 [duga_]
- ... Currently the spec isn't terribly clear that you can do mixed, though it is allowed
- 13:52:03 [duga_]
- q+
- 13:52:30 [duga_]
- ... Adding a new global property is hard. We are not chartered to do that
- 13:52:46 [wendyreid]
- ack duga_
- 13:52:46 [duga_]
- ... So using existing things will be easiest
- 13:52:54 [CharlesL]
- q+
- 13:53:46 [wendyreid]
- duga_: Wanted to point out the danger of the easiest path, if we were to go that route, we would need to discard per-item reflow/fxl switch, we'd need a global that meant "this entire book is pre-pag/this book is reflow", it mightthe right thing to do from a reality standpoint
- 13:54:16 [wendyreid]
- ... it's not a case of the easy one first, hard later, it's a case of doing the ???
- 13:54:46 [wendyreid]
- ack CharlesL
- 13:55:15 [duga_]
- duga: Going down the easiest path means we will likely lose the ability to have mixed content. So easy might be instead of hard, instead of the first step to it
- 13:55:45 [duga_]
- CharlesL: I am hearing we can't rely on metadata, we should be walking the spine
- 13:56:30 [duga_]
- ... If we need to walk the spine, maybe we can get DAISY to update ACE
- 13:56:55 [wendyreid]
- duga_: I don't think it's really supported yet, it might be premature to address the metadata
- 13:57:01 [wendyreid]
- ... if it becomes a thing, that makes sense.
- 13:57:40 [duga_]
- wendyreid: MORE COFFEE!
- 13:57:57 [duga_]
- Naomi: Does epub test still have mixed fixed/reflow content?
- 13:58:10 [duga_]
- wendyreid: Not sure, but there is an epub 3 test file
- 14:00:12 [duga_]
- ... They seem to pass, but we are not sure exactly what is being tested
- 14:00:33 [wendyreid]
- https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests
- 14:00:45 [wendyreid]
- https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests/tree/main/tests
- 14:00:56 [duga_]
- Naomi: We should test this, so far my adhoc tests show it isn't supported
- 14:01:07 [wendyreid]
- fxl-spine-overrides
- 14:01:10 [duga_]
- wendyreid: Over time
- 14:01:17 [duga_]
- ... see you in 2 weeks
- 14:01:23 [CharlesL]
- CharlesL has left #epub-fxl
- 14:01:47 [wendyreid]
- zakim, end meeting
- 14:01:47 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, jamesY, sue-neu, duga_, CircularKen, Naomi, CharlesL, jgriggs
- 14:01:47 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 14:01:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
- 14:01:55 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 14:01:56 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #epub-fxl
- 14:02:51 [wendyreid]
- rrsagent, bye
- 14:02:51 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items