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12:51:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:51:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
12:52:13 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL Accessibility Meeting 11 July 2023
12:52:23 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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13:01:54 <gpellegrino> present+
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13:06:52 <duga_> wendyreid: Compaints about Toronta public transit
13:06:59 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/wiki/Fixed-Layout-Accessibility-Taskforce
13:07:12 <jgriggs> present+
13:07:32 <duga_> ... Summarized matrix of features/formats - see link above
13:08:25 <duga_> ... the original document distilled everything to 4 basic types that appear in fixed layout
13:08:46 <duga_> ... There was way too much in illustrative works (comics, illustrated books, etc)
13:08:55 <duga_> ... At least need to break out comics
13:09:10 <duga_> ... And now we have an empty column for proposed solutions
13:09:34 <duga_> ... because different content needs different solutions (e.g. comics vs text books)
13:09:44 <wendyreid> q?
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13:10:27 <duga_> sue-neu: Agreed, especially with comics where you may want to rearrange panels
13:11:56 <duga_> wendyreid: There is still some more breakdown we can do
13:12:40 <duga_> ... So what are the solutions?
13:13:00 <gpellegrino> q+
13:13:04 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:13:43 <duga_> gpellegrino: For comics I don't really know, maybe Hadrien does. But for the first one I would say HTML or SVG techniques
13:13:51 <duga_> ... Same for the second one
13:13:57 <sue-neu> q+
13:14:05 <duga_> ... and maybe also the third one
13:14:17 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:14:46 <duga_> sue-neu: For children's picture books, something that came up was hybrid epubs
13:15:13 <duga_> ... where you can convert from fixed to reflow
13:15:21 <duga_> ... Also multiple renditions
13:16:02 <duga_> Naomi: There is also mixed fixed/flowing
13:16:12 <duga_> ... where only the pages that need to be are fixed
13:16:38 <gpellegrino> q+
13:16:40 <duga_> ... both this strategy and multiple renditions have been around forever
13:16:58 <duga_> ... But if you COULD make it reflow, why not just do only that?
13:17:02 <sue-neu> q+
13:17:05 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:17:29 <duga_> gpellegrino: I think it is possible to mix fixed/reflow
13:18:14 <duga_> ... For the first 3 I would add we could add some algorithm to generate reflow for that (automatically done by reading system)
13:18:20 <duga_> q+
13:18:44 <duga_> wendyreid: Visual/textual has been proposed multiple times
13:19:09 <duga_> ... Maybe instead of a book feature, maybe make it a reading system feature
13:19:21 <duga_> Naomi: I still want control over how that content looks
13:19:42 <gpellegrino> q+
13:19:55 <duga_> ... Need to be clear what formatting has to stay (or has to go)
13:20:04 <CharlesL> q+
13:20:15 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:20:23 <gautier> q+
13:20:30 <duga_> sue-neu: What is visual/textual idea?
13:20:37 <duga_> ... Where are the docs?!
13:20:55 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/60
13:21:08 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/23
13:21:27 <duga_> ... If you can make fixed reflow, why not? Because for early readers you may want fixed even if it can be made reflow
13:22:02 <duga_> Naomi: Agreed for kids books, but cookbooks, etc it seems odd
13:22:09 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:22:17 <wendyreid> ack duga_
13:22:51 <duga_> Naomi: This is a good case for fixed and flowing
13:23:13 <wendyreid> duga_: Wanted to generalize what Naomi was saying about mixed fixed and flowing
13:23:25 <wendyreid> ... we did it with multiple renditions and it didn't go anywhere
13:23:49 <wendyreid> ... we discourage FXL, but if we gave tools to make that possible, and if we got RX implementations of mixed fixed and flowing, that would show publishers
13:24:16 <wendyreid> ... it's an important path to go down, we need to give content creators tools to use FXL sparingly
13:24:37 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:25:09 <wendyreid> q+ Ken
13:25:22 <duga_> gpellegrino: Guidance on fixed to reflow - a well known fixed layout format has provided a way to create html from their format
13:25:26 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:25:29 <duga_> ... We should be able to do that
13:25:55 <duga_> CharlesL: This idea of visual vs textual view, this is something that was already done ages ago
13:26:37 <duga_> ... Pushing back on styling, for someone who needs the text they often want to drop the styles
13:26:46 <wendyreid> ack gautier
13:26:54 <duga_> ... so textual needs to be truly just the text so it can be styled as I need it
13:27:32 <duga_> gautier: Working with specialized readers, there are some complexities to add formats
13:27:50 <duga_> ... Something that is working is fallbacks
13:28:00 <duga_> ... for instance on devices with no screens
13:28:45 <duga_> ... This isn't an edge case, we should take into consideration this working solution (fallback to xhtml)
13:28:47 <wendyreid> ack Ken
13:29:30 <duga_> Ken: I like fixed layout! It can be very useful for well designed pages to exist
13:30:17 <duga_> ... Maybe a simple CSS switch could be used to leave the basic styling of the page (bold, italic), but drop the fixed layout stuff (positioning)
13:30:21 <CharlesL> +1 to Basic CSS (could work :)
13:30:33 <duga_> wendyreid: I don't think anyone wants to get rid of fixed layout
13:31:06 <duga_> s/Ken/CircularKen/
13:31:28 <duga_> CircularKen: Don't discard the meaning of remaining in the fixed layout page
13:31:49 <sue-neu> q+
13:31:54 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:31:56 <duga_> wendyreid: A11y doesn't just mean visual - layout can be important for some a11y use cases
13:32:19 <duga_> sue-neu: What do you mean by CSS switch? media queries or amp?
13:32:55 <duga_> CircularKen: Not an expert, but some sort of switch when you open or read the book
13:33:14 <duga_> ... Having a single version you can just switch between seems very elegant
13:33:41 <duga_> wendyreid: I see a switch like this as a reading system feature
13:33:43 <duga_> q+
13:33:59 <wendyreid> ack duga_
13:34:02 <wendyreid> duga_:
13:34:19 <wendyreid> duga_: CSS switch has been done a few times with varying degress of success
13:34:28 <wendyreid> ... day/night mode, vertical/horizontal mode
13:34:32 <wendyreid> ... alternate stylesheets
13:34:39 <wendyreid> ... it was horrible and hard to implement
13:34:56 <wendyreid> ... we implemented horizontal/vertical, but it was intended to be user-driven
13:35:08 <wendyreid> ... the other place more successfully was media-overlays
13:35:21 <wendyreid> ... we inject classes into the content to cause the content to be rendered differently
13:35:42 <wendyreid> ... the reading system renders the book based on the CSS provided by the content creator
13:35:50 <wendyreid> ... simply by adding a class to the root element
13:37:01 <wendyreid> duga_: I don't know about implementation, I think it was a bad feature
13:37:07 <wendyreid> ... I wouldn't recommend anyone implement today
13:37:23 <wendyreid> Naomi: Could we use the same mechanisms to do a reflow/fixed switch?
13:37:27 <CircularKen> q+
13:37:32 <wendyreid> duga_: No, the way we did it was a matrix
13:37:47 <wendyreid> ... completely unrelated things, but needed all these stylesheets
13:37:56 <wendyreid> ... but it doesn't make much sense
13:38:07 <wendyreid> ... if we added another feature, the matrix gets even more complex
13:38:17 <wendyreid> ... maybe media-overlays, much better support
13:39:02 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
13:39:29 <duga_> CircularKen: I know one likes visual to textual, but it is better to fixed layout to reflowable
13:39:43 <duga_> ... It is really prepaginated to not prepaginated
13:40:25 <duga_> wendyreid: Prepaginated and reflow are global but they can be overridden for each element
13:40:32 <duga_> ... at least that is how it is written now
13:40:52 <duga_> ... Maybe this is global?
13:40:53 <duga_> q+
13:40:58 <wendyreid> ack duga_
13:41:51 <wendyreid> duga_: I don't think it has to, always view pre-pag as a global default, every individual item as a toggle, but the default is the global setting
13:41:55 <wendyreid> ... just an impression
13:42:22 <wendyreid> ... I don't know if this would need to be a global property, I don't think the content would suddenly would not be pre-paginated
13:42:43 <wendyreid> ... if i had a pre-paginated page, and I changed the CSS, it doesn't get merged into the surrounding pages
13:42:56 <wendyreid> ... it feels targeted, this page has this CSS override
13:43:05 <wendyreid> ... every page could have it's own property for that
13:43:23 <sue-neu> q+
13:43:28 <wendyreid> ... when you enter the reflow mode, every page gets the CSS for reflow
13:43:33 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:43:49 <duga_> sue-neu: I agree this could be a local setting vs global
13:44:16 <duga_> ... maybe comparing pages across media types (e.g. knowing the page you are on in a classroom)
13:44:27 <duga_> wendyreid: Yeah, wouldn't want to merge pages
13:45:20 <duga_> ... What meant about global vs spine, the default is reflow
13:45:34 <duga_> ... So you have to specify pre-paginated
13:45:42 <duga_> q+
13:46:06 <duga_> The sooner you can tell the RS what the features are the better
13:46:09 <wendyreid> ack duga_
13:46:43 <wendyreid> duga_: I kind of agree because I did it that way, I also disagree because it backed me into a corner with not supporting a feature I wanted to, mixed fxl and reflow
13:46:53 <wendyreid> ... now I assume everything is that global default
13:47:16 <wendyreid> ... I disagree that it's any harder by spine item, you better use the spine to know what is coming
13:47:25 <wendyreid> ... RS reading the spine
13:47:38 <wendyreid> ... I would agree if it was buried in the content itself, since it's late in the game
13:47:43 <wendyreid> ... if it's in the manifest
13:48:06 <duga_> wendyreid: I would be happy with a global property that says it is mixed
13:48:20 <wendyreid> duga_: Not sure if its necessary, just walk through the spine
13:48:22 <CharlesL> q+
13:48:40 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:49:18 <duga_> CharlesL: Yeah, I guess. Knowing if it is one, the other, or both, would be helpful for libraries and bookstores etc
13:49:22 <duga_> q+
13:49:32 <wendyreid> ack duga_
13:49:56 <wendyreid> duga_: I believe that metadata is already there and can be used by libraries/bookstores, but if they are not, it's their problem
13:50:03 <wendyreid> ... you can parse the manifest to find the values
13:50:18 <CircularKen> q+
13:50:25 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
13:50:57 <duga_> CircularKen: What is the easiest thing to do? Is book level the easiest? maybe do that first?
13:51:28 <duga_> wendyreid: From a spec perspective, the easiest is to say that it already exists
13:51:37 <duga_> ... Job done!
13:52:01 <duga_> ... Currently the spec isn't terribly clear that you can do mixed, though it is allowed
13:52:03 <duga_> q+
13:52:30 <duga_> ... Adding a new global property is hard. We are not chartered to do that
13:52:46 <wendyreid> ack duga_
13:52:46 <duga_> ... So using existing things will be easiest
13:52:54 <CharlesL> q+
13:53:46 <wendyreid> duga_: Wanted to point out the danger of the easiest path, if we were to go that route, we would need to discard per-item reflow/fxl switch, we'd need a global that meant "this entire book is pre-pag/this book is reflow", it mightthe right thing to do from a reality standpoint
13:54:16 <wendyreid> ... it's not a case of the easy one first, hard later, it's a case of doing the ???
13:54:46 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:55:15 <duga_> duga: Going down the easiest path means we will likely lose the ability to have mixed content. So easy might be instead of hard, instead of the first step to it
13:55:45 <duga_> CharlesL: I am hearing we can't rely on metadata, we should be walking the spine
13:56:30 <duga_> ... If we need to walk the spine, maybe we can get DAISY to update ACE
13:56:55 <wendyreid> duga_: I don't think it's really supported yet, it might be premature to address the metadata
13:57:01 <wendyreid> ... if it becomes a thing, that makes sense.
13:57:40 <duga_> wendyreid: MORE COFFEE!
13:57:57 <duga_> Naomi: Does epub test still have mixed fixed/reflow content?
13:58:10 <duga_> wendyreid: Not sure, but there is an epub 3 test file
14:00:12 <duga_> ... They seem to pass, but we are not sure exactly what is being tested
14:00:33 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests
14:00:45 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests/tree/main/tests
14:00:56 <duga_> Naomi: We should test this, so far my adhoc tests show it isn't supported
14:01:07 <wendyreid> fxl-spine-overrides
14:01:10 <duga_> wendyreid: Over time
14:01:17 <duga_> ... see you in 2 weeks
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14:01:47 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
14:01:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, jamesY, sue-neu, duga_, CircularKen, Naomi, CharlesL, jgriggs
14:01:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:01:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
14:01:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:01:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
14:02:51 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
14:02:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items