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17:53:30 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-irc
17:53:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:53:31 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
17:53:48 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:53:55 <Matt_King> present+
17:54:02 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt
17:54:13 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
17:54:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:55:02 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Review agend and next meeting date
17:55:12 <Matt_King> View agenda at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/July-11%2C-2023-Agenda
17:55:37 <Matt_King> No meeting July 18.
17:55:45 <Matt_King> Next meeting July 25.
17:56:04 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutesK
17:56:04 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesK', Matt_King.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:56:14 <Matt_King> rrsagent , make minutes
17:56:50 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
17:56:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:59:48 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
18:02:59 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:03:03 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
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18:03:09 <Jem> present+ JemmaKu
18:03:11 <howard-e> present+
18:03:24 <Jem> present+ JonGunderson
18:04:01 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:05:17 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Alex_Flenniken from Bocoup won't be available for review for the foreseeable future
18:05:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll miss him!
18:05:31 <jugglinmike> Topic: Status of Site Updates
18:05:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think any of the things listed in the agenda are pressing updates
18:09:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anyone object to us waiting for a larger collection before we push them out to the production site?
18:10:11 <jugglinmike> Jem: When will we consider publishing again?
18:10:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have a few patches which are pretty close. I think if we could land the "ListBox" fix, then we should definitely publish a new version
18:11:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if that will necessarily be in July, but I don
18:11:30 <jugglinmike> s/don/don't mind waiting until August for that/
18:14:07 <jugglinmike> Topic: Pull request reviews
18:14:20 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Feed Example: Convert images to inline SVG
18:14:24 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2729
18:15:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: James provided some good feedback to the author, but James is now on vacation. We would like someone to look at this, in particular, high-contrast mode
18:15:20 <jugglinmike> Jem: I reviewed it just now, but I didn't review for high-contrast mode
18:15:34 <jugglinmike> jongund: I can look at high-contrast mode
18:16:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'd ask Shirisha and Alyssa to review, previously
18:16:31 <jugglinmike> Jem: I've assigned you as a review, jongund
18:17:18 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Listbox Examples: Update scrolling of listbox item with focus into view when page is magnified
18:17:23 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2622
18:18:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is jongund's pull request. jugglinmike had provided performed a review and requested some changes. jongund have you had a chance to respond, yet?
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18:18:27 <CurtBellew> present+
18:26:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should include a test for scrolling this into view, and we should probably perform an audit for other patterns which use active descendant
18:29:16 <jugglinmike> jongund: I can try to write a test for this, but it will probably take me a few weeks. I'm going to be on vacation
18:29:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we should raise a separate issue for developing regression tests for scrolling behavior
18:29:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And then land this without regression tests
18:30:00 <jugglinmike> Jem: I agree
18:30:34 <Jem> ava info in the apg wiki: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Regression-Tests-for-APG-Example-Pages#ava
18:30:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Valerie Young might have some feedback for how to write those regression tests because she developed this testing framework
18:31:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: jongund, could you address jugglinmike's other feedback?
18:31:07 <jugglinmike> jongund: Sure
18:31:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It'd be great if we could land this one in the next week or so. Then, I would love to push the changes out to production
18:31:51 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Landmark Example Pages: remove background colours that cause color contrast failures
18:31:58 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2738
18:32:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a small fix. I think we just need a visual review
18:32:23 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can do that. I'll assign myself
18:32:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thanks!
18:32:56 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Add AT Support tables for modal dialog, 1 slider, and navigation menu button
18:33:01 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2736
18:33:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not going to merge this until I receive a "go ahead" from Vispero, and I'm meeting with them tomorrow
18:33:26 <jugglinmike> Jem: I approved it yesterday
18:33:45 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Reposition AT support tables higher on the page
18:33:49 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2737
18:33:53 <jugglinmike> Jem: I approved this
18:34:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then I'll merge it
18:34:32 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running tests on macOS
18:34:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if anyone can run all the test successfully locally, and I don't know if we have a clear path forward for how it can be fixed
18:35:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If that's correct, then I think we should probably change our readme (at least temporarily) to at least acknowledge this and not expect contributors to run the tests locally and just run them in CI
18:36:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: As discussed recently, this isn't the greatest solution for new contributors, but it's better than where we are now (i.e. misleading documentation)
18:36:32 <jugglinmike> howard-e: That all sounds right to me. I haven't had a chance to investigate further myself, but I know it's related to a regression to how Node.js version 17 defines "localhost"
18:36:57 <jugglinmike> howard-e: This leads me to think that some rewrite of the geckodriver file might be needed. But it's too early to say
18:37:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only reason we're able to run the tests in CI is because you pinned the CI system to Node.js 16, right?
18:37:38 <jugglinmike> howard-e: That's right. We can't do that for contributors unless we instruct them on how to use a tool like nvm
18:38:42 <jugglinmike> howard-e: This problem does not effect Windows; only some Unix environments
18:39:01 <jugglinmike> howard-e: We know that includes Ubuntu (because that's what the CI uses) and macOS (because that's what I use)
18:39:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, I definitely have timeouts on my Windows machine
18:40:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the logical next step for this issue is to change the readme. Right now, the readme just encourages people to run tests locally. I think we can include a link to the relevant Node.js issue
18:40:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This was quite a diversion/rabbit-hole for Paul, and I don't want any other new contributors to "fall into" it
18:41:02 <jugglinmike> Topic: New contributing page
18:41:16 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2734
18:41:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have this patch in draft. The agenda has a link to the preview
18:42:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm looking for someone else to take a look and giving feedback on whether it includes everything we want
18:42:15 <jugglinmike> jongund: I can take a look
18:43:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This was in response to an issue that jongund raised
18:43:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I copied content from the home page and cleaned it up a little bit (making it more appropriate for this kind of page
18:43:33 <jugglinmike> s/page/page)/
18:43:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ideally, it would be the kind of page that points readers to other pages that are helpful when they're getting started
18:44:52 <jugglinmike> Jem: I was thinking about adding content about "why people should contribute" because right now, it's mostly about the mechanical aspects of contribution
18:45:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, the top of the page has a very brief statement along those lines
18:46:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we wanted more and if we wanted to stay true to this style of document, I think that opening statement could include a link--something like "learn more about why contributing to the APG is important..."
18:46:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So there's a draft pull request; feel free to add commits. I'm happy to co-author content
18:47:46 <jugglinmike> Topic: Is treegrid Example code able to support nested selects
18:48:03 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2741
18:48:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Stephanie_Leary was trying to use the treeview pattern to make a treeview that included a select in a cell
18:49:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I replied that adding a select, that could interfere with the navigation in the treeview
18:49:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I looked around in the code, and I tried to understand the impact of the change on the code. I believe that it will only have negative consequences--not positive
18:50:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wrote something up to that effect in my reply, but I would like it if someone could actually test it
18:50:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm pretty sure that the TreeGrid code is very purpose-built for the kind of tree grid we are exemplifying in APG. I don't think it's quite robust enough to support this kind of extension
18:51:51 <jugglinmike> jongund: I can take a look
18:52:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You've already signed up for a bunch of things in this meeting; that's very generous!
18:54:05 <jugglinmike> Topic: New Issue Action Planning
18:54:48 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Listbox pattern: aria-multiselectable conflicts with the aria spec
18:54:55 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2746
18:55:09 <jugglinmike> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:55:25 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: I responded to this one
18:56:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we actually need to adjust the ARIA spec
18:56:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Your comment here is spot-on, Bryan_Garaventa. It should work, just in terms of the way it maps
18:59:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The way the ARIA spec language is written for ARIA multiselectable, it doesn't account for the possibility of using ARIA checked to represent the "selected" state. The spec language is inconsistent with itself: there's language about using "checked" in multiselects
18:59:34 <Jem> +1
19:04:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So in summary, this is not an APG issue. It's actually an ARIA issue
19:05:13 <jugglinmike> Jem: I'll add the label "not for practices"
19:05:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: and I'll add a comment to this effect
19:05:49 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:05:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jugglinmike, JemmaKu, howard-e, JonGunderson, CurtBellew, Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:05:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:05:59 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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