IRC log of aria-apg on 2023-07-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-irc

17:53:30 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

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please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King

17:53:48 [Matt_King]

MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force

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present+

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CHAIR: Matt

17:54:13 [Matt_King]

rrsagent, make minutes

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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King

17:55:02 [Matt_King]

TOPIC: Review agend and next meeting date

17:55:12 [Matt_King]

View agenda at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/July-11%2C-2023-Agenda

17:55:37 [Matt_King]

No meeting July 18.

17:55:45 [Matt_King]

Next meeting July 25.

17:56:04 [Matt_King]

rrsagent, make minutesK

17:56:04 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesK', Matt_King. Try /msg RRSAgent help

17:56:14 [Matt_King]

rrsagent , make minutes

17:56:50 [Matt_King]

rrsagent, make minutes

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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King

17:59:48 [jugglinmike]

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18:02:59 [jugglinmike]

present+ jugglinmike

18:03:03 [jugglinmike]

scribe+ jugglinmike

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18:03:09 [Jem]

present+ JemmaKu

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present+

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present+ JonGunderson

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18:05:17 [jugglinmike]

jugglinmike: Alex_Flenniken from Bocoup won't be available for review for the foreseeable future

18:05:23 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We'll miss him!

18:05:31 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Status of Site Updates

18:05:53 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I don't think any of the things listed in the agenda are pressing updates

18:09:43 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Does anyone object to us waiting for a larger collection before we push them out to the production site?

18:10:11 [jugglinmike]

Jem: When will we consider publishing again?

18:10:53 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We have a few patches which are pretty close. I think if we could land the "ListBox" fix, then we should definitely publish a new version

18:11:10 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I don't know if that will necessarily be in July, but I don

18:11:30 [jugglinmike]

s/don/don't mind waiting until August for that/

18:14:07 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Pull request reviews

18:14:20 [jugglinmike]

Subtopic: Feed Example: Convert images to inline SVG

18:14:24 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2729

18:15:01 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: James provided some good feedback to the author, but James is now on vacation. We would like someone to look at this, in particular, high-contrast mode

18:15:20 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I reviewed it just now, but I didn't review for high-contrast mode

18:15:34 [jugglinmike]

jongund: I can look at high-contrast mode

18:16:17 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We'd ask Shirisha and Alyssa to review, previously

18:16:31 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I've assigned you as a review, jongund

18:17:18 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: Listbox Examples: Update scrolling of listbox item with focus into view when page is magnified

18:17:23 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2622

18:18:01 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This is jongund's pull request. jugglinmike had provided performed a review and requested some changes. jongund have you had a chance to respond, yet?

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present+

18:26:53 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We should include a test for scrolling this into view, and we should probably perform an audit for other patterns which use active descendant

18:29:16 [jugglinmike]

jongund: I can try to write a test for this, but it will probably take me a few weeks. I'm going to be on vacation

18:29:38 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Maybe we should raise a separate issue for developing regression tests for scrolling behavior

18:29:51 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: And then land this without regression tests

18:30:00 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I agree

18:30:34 [Jem]

ava info in the apg wiki: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Regression-Tests-for-APG-Example-Pages#ava

18:30:40 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Valerie Young might have some feedback for how to write those regression tests because she developed this testing framework

18:31:02 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: jongund, could you address jugglinmike's other feedback?

18:31:07 [jugglinmike]

jongund: Sure

18:31:23 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: It'd be great if we could land this one in the next week or so. Then, I would love to push the changes out to production

18:31:51 [jugglinmike]

Subtopic: Landmark Example Pages: remove background colours that cause color contrast failures

18:31:58 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2738

18:32:16 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This is a small fix. I think we just need a visual review

18:32:23 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I can do that. I'll assign myself

18:32:26 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Thanks!

18:32:56 [jugglinmike]

Subtopic: Add AT Support tables for modal dialog, 1 slider, and navigation menu button

18:33:01 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2736

18:33:15 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'm not going to merge this until I receive a "go ahead" from Vispero, and I'm meeting with them tomorrow

18:33:26 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I approved it yesterday

18:33:45 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: Reposition AT support tables higher on the page

18:33:49 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2737

18:33:53 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I approved this

18:34:13 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Then I'll merge it

18:34:32 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Running tests on macOS

18:34:50 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I don't know if anyone can run all the test successfully locally, and I don't know if we have a clear path forward for how it can be fixed

18:35:19 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: If that's correct, then I think we should probably change our readme (at least temporarily) to at least acknowledge this and not expect contributors to run the tests locally and just run them in CI

18:36:00 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: As discussed recently, this isn't the greatest solution for new contributors, but it's better than where we are now (i.e. misleading documentation)

18:36:32 [jugglinmike]

howard-e: That all sounds right to me. I haven't had a chance to investigate further myself, but I know it's related to a regression to how Node.js version 17 defines "localhost"

18:36:57 [jugglinmike]

howard-e: This leads me to think that some rewrite of the geckodriver file might be needed. But it's too early to say

18:37:16 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: The only reason we're able to run the tests in CI is because you pinned the CI system to Node.js 16, right?

18:37:38 [jugglinmike]

howard-e: That's right. We can't do that for contributors unless we instruct them on how to use a tool like nvm

18:38:42 [jugglinmike]

howard-e: This problem does not effect Windows; only some Unix environments

18:39:01 [jugglinmike]

howard-e: We know that includes Ubuntu (because that's what the CI uses) and macOS (because that's what I use)

18:39:13 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Well, I definitely have timeouts on my Windows machine

18:40:32 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I think the logical next step for this issue is to change the readme. Right now, the readme just encourages people to run tests locally. I think we can include a link to the relevant Node.js issue

18:40:52 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This was quite a diversion/rabbit-hole for Paul, and I don't want any other new contributors to "fall into" it

18:41:02 [jugglinmike]

Topic: New contributing page

18:41:16 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2734

18:41:35 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I have this patch in draft. The agenda has a link to the preview

18:42:06 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'm looking for someone else to take a look and giving feedback on whether it includes everything we want

18:42:15 [jugglinmike]

jongund: I can take a look

18:43:11 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This was in response to an issue that jongund raised

18:43:27 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I copied content from the home page and cleaned it up a little bit (making it more appropriate for this kind of page

18:43:33 [jugglinmike]

s/page/page)/

18:43:54 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Ideally, it would be the kind of page that points readers to other pages that are helpful when they're getting started

18:44:52 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I was thinking about adding content about "why people should contribute" because right now, it's mostly about the mechanical aspects of contribution

18:45:06 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Well, the top of the page has a very brief statement along those lines

18:46:10 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: If we wanted more and if we wanted to stay true to this style of document, I think that opening statement could include a link--something like "learn more about why contributing to the APG is important..."

18:46:48 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: So there's a draft pull request; feel free to add commits. I'm happy to co-author content

18:47:46 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Is treegrid Example code able to support nested selects

18:48:03 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2741

18:48:40 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Stephanie_Leary was trying to use the treeview pattern to make a treeview that included a select in a cell

18:49:07 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I replied that adding a select, that could interfere with the navigation in the treeview

18:49:40 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I looked around in the code, and I tried to understand the impact of the change on the code. I believe that it will only have negative consequences--not positive

18:50:10 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I wrote something up to that effect in my reply, but I would like it if someone could actually test it

18:50:57 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'm pretty sure that the TreeGrid code is very purpose-built for the kind of tree grid we are exemplifying in APG. I don't think it's quite robust enough to support this kind of extension

18:51:51 [jugglinmike]

jongund: I can take a look

18:52:16 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: You've already signed up for a bunch of things in this meeting; that's very generous!

18:54:05 [jugglinmike]

Topic: New Issue Action Planning

18:54:48 [jugglinmike]

Subtopic: Listbox pattern: aria-multiselectable conflicts with the aria spec

18:54:55 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2746

18:55:09 [jugglinmike]

present+ Bryan_Garaventa

18:55:25 [jugglinmike]

Bryan_Garaventa: I responded to this one

18:56:01 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Maybe we actually need to adjust the ARIA spec

18:56:19 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Your comment here is spot-on, Bryan_Garaventa. It should work, just in terms of the way it maps

18:59:11 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: The way the ARIA spec language is written for ARIA multiselectable, it doesn't account for the possibility of using ARIA checked to represent the "selected" state. The spec language is inconsistent with itself: there's language about using "checked" in multiselects

18:59:34 [Jem]

+1

19:04:52 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: So in summary, this is not an APG issue. It's actually an ARIA issue

19:05:13 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I'll add the label "not for practices"

19:05:19 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: and I'll add a comment to this effect

19:05:49 [jugglinmike]

Zakim, end the meeting

19:05:49 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jugglinmike, JemmaKu, howard-e, JonGunderson, CurtBellew, Bryan_Garaventa

19:05:51 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

19:05:52 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim

19:05:59 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

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