17:01:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-aria-irc
17:01:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:01:39 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut_
17:01:39 <spectranaut_> meeting: ARIA WG
17:01:44 <spectranaut_> chair: ValerieYoung
17:01:47 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
17:01:47 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
17:01:49 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230706T130000/
17:01:49 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:01:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> 日本語ホームページJapanese website https://www.w3.org/ja/
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17:02:04 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria
17:02:08 <spectranaut_> agenda?
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17:02:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Download this occurrence as ics https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230706T130000/export
17:02:17 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Download all occurrences as ics https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/export/
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17:02:48 <Doug> Doug has joined #aria
17:03:03 <spectranaut_> zakim, leave
17:03:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:03:04 <dmontalvo> zakim, clear agenda
17:03:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:03:45 <dmontalvo> zakim, clear agenda
17:03:45 <Zakim> agenda cleared
17:04:56 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2023Jun/0022.html
17:04:56 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:04:56 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/bdurz7mn)
17:04:56 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/bdeb2e63)
17:04:56 <agendabot> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
17:04:57 <agendabot> agenda+ [Consider supporting aria-checked on gridcells](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1960)
17:05:00 <agendabot> agenda+ [Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957)
17:05:02 <agendabot> agenda+ [Rethink how "hidden" is aria-hidden content?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1951)
17:05:05 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/))
17:05:24 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 7
17:05:24 <Zakim> agendum 7, [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/)), dropped
17:06:33 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:06:41 <StefanS> present+
17:08:01 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:09:24 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:09:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/bdurz7mn) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:19 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:10:26 <Matt_King> present+
17:10:28 <rahim_abdi> rahim_abdi has joined #aria
17:10:40 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/183
17:11:43 <jcraig> UIA issue, Doug to review for aria-errormessage
17:11:47 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/494
17:12:51 <jcraig> scotto__: jamesn called me out on underexplaining....
17:12:52 <jcraig> jn
17:13:11 <jcraig> s/jn/jamesn: needs constraints
17:14:08 <jcraig> scotto__: could be an easier pattern in the UA so authors don't have to
17:14:19 <jcraig> spectranaut_: add agenda+
17:14:33 <jcraig> s/jn/jamesn: needs constraints/
17:14:45 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:14:45 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/bdeb2e63) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:15 <jcraig> zakim, close this item
17:15:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:15:16 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:16 <Zakim> 3. [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) [from agendabot]
17:15:17 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:15:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:38 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/939
17:15:42 <jcraig> spectranaut_: role parity summary issue
17:17:22 <jcraig> week of July 27th
17:17:41 <jcraig> spectranaut_: consider use cases for aria-modal
17:17:59 <jcraig> scotto__: need aleventhal for that one
17:18:08 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:18:08 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Consider supporting aria-checked on gridcells](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1960) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:40 <jcraig> sarah_h_: from probs with aria-selected and mixed state selection
17:19:16 <jcraig> esp if you have a selectable grid... checked column. select all rows via checkbox
17:19:17 <jamesn> q+
17:19:37 <jamesn> q+ MarioBatusic
17:19:42 <dmontalvo> q+ Mario
17:19:51 <jcraig> when arrowing through the grid, this would help to keep focus on the check box gridcell itself
17:19:55 <jamesn> q- Mario
17:20:05 <jcraig> would need AAM mapping
17:20:29 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:20:41 <jcraig> jamesn: question: do we have examples if current usage and how it works? needs testing standard patterns across platforms
17:20:48 <jcraig> sarah_h_: not great support.
17:21:03 <jcraig> jamesn: would help progress if test cases provided
17:21:10 <Matt_King> q+
17:21:11 <sarah_h_> example use case: https://react.fluentui.dev/?path=/docs/components-datagrid--default
17:21:19 <spectranaut_> ack MarioBatusic
17:21:39 <jcraig> MarioBatusic: why should it be possible to uncheck a row if you already have a checkbox there
17:21:52 <jcraig> understand need for selection, but not unchecking
17:22:09 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
17:22:18 <jcraig> sarah_h_: added example to the chat.. changes windows screen reader modes
17:22:37 <jcraig> Matt_King: i think these are screen reader bugs... maybe not cause for an ARIA change
17:22:43 <sarah_h_> q+
17:23:13 <jcraig> would we have to write something similar to what we did for @@@ so that authors would not use both in conflicting ways
17:23:48 <jcraig> s/@@@/option and treeitem/
17:24:25 <jcraig> changed and provided guidance for authors and UAs to not provide both... with UA MUST error handling
17:25:14 <jcraig> with grid, there aren't well established patterns... Not sure I want to hear "selected" on every cell... That may be tangential
17:25:14 <spectranaut_> ack sarah_h_
17:25:48 <jcraig> sarah_h_: currently standard practice for WIndows SRs to switch modes... would be a big change
17:26:05 <jcraig> Matt_King: not in JAWS, excepting one known bug with some links
17:26:30 <jcraig> sarah_h_: have tested recently, but will verify the version I was using
17:26:46 <jcraig> helpful to have that info exposed
17:27:20 <jcraig> gives example about file selection... filename including selection state was helpful... even though no checkbox provided
17:27:43 <jcraig> re: checked vs selected.... Agree with you to avoid that anti-pattern
17:28:34 <jcraig> * discussing some very specific user testing results
17:29:23 <jcraig> Matt_King: mentions another example in Google Sheets selection
17:29:52 <spectranaut_> q?
17:30:15 <jamesn> qv?
17:30:28 <jcraig> sarah_h_: clarifying checked vs selected may need to be a prerequisite for this
17:31:16 <jcraig> Matt_King: in gridcell role, could add the same language in authoring guide from treeitem role
17:31:44 <jcraig> sarah_h_: will add PR and also talk to browser folks
17:32:17 <jcraig> Matt_King: need to coalesce on rows in tree vs treegrid
17:33:01 <jcraig> may need to add the same language on the row role too
17:33:06 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:33:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:33:47 <jamesn> scribe+
17:34:19 <jamesn> Doug: at F2F broke down into 7 different discussion groups
17:34:32 <jamesn> Doug: based on that we created individual discussion groups.
17:34:40 <jamesn> Doug: wanted to verify hit everyones issues
17:34:50 <jamesn> Doug: also wanted to go through individually
17:35:07 <jamesn> Doug: also want to go back to API doc and go back and change based on feedback
17:35:22 <jamesn> Doug: want to look into what is best course of action to move this forward
17:35:48 <jamesn> spectranaut_: might be good to go through some in the meetings maybe a few at a time until we get through them
17:35:54 <jamesn> Doug: some easier than others
17:36:23 <jamesn> Matt_King: there is a google doc with a spec
17:37:05 <jamesn> Matt_King: this API would have to be implemented at the platform level by both IA2 and UIA to work (on windows)? Who is the implementor here?
17:37:19 <jamesn> Doug: the browser would implement based on the best platform available
17:37:34 <jamesn> cyns: chrome will imeplement on IA2
17:37:43 <jamesn> Matt_King: does it require changes to IA2?
17:38:00 <jamesn> Doug: don't believe IA2 has what is needed. Believe UIA is close
17:38:15 <jamesn> Matt_King: wish the spec could be in comething other than a google doc
17:38:27 <jamesn> Matt_King: could it move into a repo?
17:39:13 <jamesn> jcraig: WICG?
17:39:24 <jamesn> cyns: I think Travis set up a repo
17:39:38 <jamesn> scotto__: based on the google doc it doesn't look like there are any comments
17:39:53 <jamesn> scotto__: the GH thread was to allow the discussion to be open
17:40:07 <jamesn> scotto__: shouldn't let that stop us talking about it now
17:40:42 <jamesn> scotto__: we could even put it in a wiki on ARIA
17:41:00 <jamesn> scotto__: changes could go there on a discussion thread
17:41:14 <jamesn> Matt_King: this spec needs to live somewhere
17:41:19 <jamesn> Matt_King: where does this go?
17:41:33 <jamesn> Doug: don't know the answer
17:42:56 <jamesn> jamesn: WICG seems best to me
17:43:36 <jcraig> q+ to mention the WICG move should not necessarily be tied to a solution or spec
17:44:22 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:44:22 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention the WICG move should not necessarily be tied to a solution or spec
17:44:52 <jamesn> jcraig: would call this something like Accessibility Notifications. Do not tie to proposed solution
17:45:21 <jamesn> cyns: is there a good reason not to add it to AOM
17:45:33 <jamesn> cyns: seems easier
17:45:50 <jamesn> jcraig: reasonable to be a topic in that meeting but would prefer its own repo
17:46:13 <jamesn> jcraig: the reason for incubation groups is to keep small tasks focussed
17:46:31 <jamesn> spectranaut_: lets go through discussion points
17:47:03 <jamesn> Doug:  Does the notification API need to support Braille?
17:47:25 <jamesn> Doug: do we need to do this up front - do we do it later?
17:47:32 <jamesn> jcraig: absolutely we need it
17:48:00 <jamesn> jcraig: hearing screen reader users, deaf-blind screen reader users and hybrid
17:48:30 <jamesn> jcraig: shorthand braille notifications is very useful. Some extension to that notification is useful
17:48:41 <jamesn> jcraig: absolutely consider up front
17:49:04 <jamesn> Doug: there could be folks that don't understand the difference and may use incorrectly
17:49:32 <jamesn> jcraig: we put a lot of through into braillelabel wording - its a tool and folks can do the wrong thing
17:50:08 <jamesn> Matt_King: do you want to move deeper and find what the braille requirements might be
17:50:12 <jamesn> q+
17:51:35 <dmontalvo> q+
17:52:00 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:52:36 <jamesn> "Would the notification API need to provide support for separate braille specific notification strings? What are people's thoughts on this being a v1 release feature or if this is maybe something that could be rolled out as part of future updates?"
17:52:54 <dmontalvo> q-
17:53:02 <jcraig> q+
17:53:49 <jamesn> Mario: screen readers control braille and web authors may not know the right thing for the braille
17:53:56 <spectranaut_> q+ cyns
17:54:00 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:54:21 <jamesn> jcraig: I also missed the comment that this is about v1. should be considered for v1 but not be on the critical path for v1
17:54:58 <jamesn> cyns: what james just said. need a path forward but doesn't have to be in v1
17:55:01 <spectranaut_> q?
17:55:04 <spectranaut_> ack cy
17:55:37 <jamesn> Doug: has helped a lot to move forward
17:55:53 <jamesn> spectranaut_: can continue to discuss in the meeting
17:56:41 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
17:56:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been StefanS, Matt_King
17:56:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:56:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:56:51 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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18:15:48 <jcraig> s/the reason for incubation groups is to keep small tasks focussed/the primary reason to incubation groups is to keep small groups of people very task-focused/
18:15:59 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:16:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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