05:06:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
05:06:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/28-i18n-irc
05:06:20 <xfq> scribe+ xfq
05:06:28 <xfq> Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
05:06:34 <fantasai> topic: Upstreaming small Kana to Kana mapping to Unicode
05:06:36 <xfq> rrsagent, make log public
05:06:38 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8442
05:06:40 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
05:06:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq
05:07:06 <xfq> fantasai: we have a mapping table, but annevk said it should be upstreamed to Unicode
05:07:11 <xfq> ... that seems reasonable
05:07:23 <xfq> florian: I agree
05:07:32 <xfq> fantasai: can the i18n WG pass that on to Unicode?
05:07:46 <xfq> ... in the mean time we can keep the table up to date
05:08:17 <fantasai> scribe+
05:08:26 <fantasai> xfq: Yes, I can bring that to i18nWg
05:08:31 <fantasai> ... it's useful outside of CSS
05:08:48 <fantasai> florian: who is the i18nWG liaison to Unicode?
05:09:01 <fantasai> xfq: I think it's Richard, but usually addison contacts them as the i18nWG chair
05:09:35 <fantasai> florian: sounds good, and on our side we'll do what crissov suggested
05:10:32 <fantasai> Topic: Counter Styles
05:10:46 <fantasai> florian: short version of my comments is, I think registry is the wrong track if required in browsers
05:10:53 <fantasai> ... registries are not meant for normative requirements
05:10:58 <fantasai> ... they're for e.g. mappings
05:11:08 <fantasai> ... to make normatively required for browsers, need to put it in the spec
05:11:12 <fantasai> ... and registries are not specs
05:11:30 <fantasai> florian: registries would be fit for purpose for what we did before...
05:11:34 <fantasai> ... could be one as a Note
05:11:46 <xfq> present+ atsushi, fantasai, florian, xfq
05:11:48 <fantasai> ... registries would put some restrictions on how it's maintained
05:12:09 <fantasai> ... e.g. can you remove names, what kind of review is necessary, maybe there's different criteria for stable / exploring lists
05:12:20 <fantasai> ... this works, useful for what we do so far
05:12:29 <fantasai> ... but for something more heavyweight
05:12:45 <fantasai> ... Here for every thing there's a separate spec, that provides normative requirements
05:12:55 <fantasai> ... but one-liner specs are still specs
05:13:30 <fantasai> [discussion about process]
05:16:04 <fantasai> fantasai: I think if we just make it non-normative, with non-normative suggestion to implement, it'll be fine.
05:16:15 <fantasai> florian: good to have some back-compat requrements in the registry rules
05:16:44 <fantasai> fantasai: More interesting question is whether to actually implement and ship these
05:16:49 <fantasai> ... and if so, if all of them or some of them
05:17:16 <fantasai> florian: as long as it's opt-in on author's style, it's maybe a convenience
05:17:25 <fantasai> ... there's some risk of shifting, but most of the shifts are not dramatic
05:17:33 <fantasai> ... making them auto-apply is a problem
05:17:36 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
05:18:02 <fantasai> fantasai: yes, an auto-translating thing would be problematic
05:18:22 <fantasai> florian: Tab mentioned auto-translate to Japanese lettering, and nobody wants that
05:19:11 <fantasai> florian: another problem is shifting variations of numbering...
05:21:05 <fantasai> fantasai: I think we'll need i18nWG position / education to the CSSWG on these questions
05:21:28 <fantasai> ... e.g. named counter styles probably OK to ship and update over time, the shifts are unlikely to break things particularly much
05:21:35 <fantasai> ... but auto-translating could be a problem
05:21:40 <fantasai> r12a joins
05:22:07 <fantasai> florian: Everyone seemed enthusiastic about i18n, but we (i18nWG members) were the most skeptical
05:22:21 <fantasai> florian: For shipping the various list numbering systems, shipping them is probably fine
05:22:34 <fantasai> ... most likely point of breakage would be if you are referencing individual list items
05:22:45 <fantasai> ... if the numbering changes, but that's pretty rare
05:22:51 <fantasai> florian: on the other hand, really needs to be opt-in
05:23:01 <fantasai> ... don't want to get the wrong or inappropriate numbering style
05:23:29 <fantasai> ... translating from roman numerals to japanese traditional style is maybe not wanted/expected
05:23:34 <fantasai> florian: Other topic is if we really want a registry
05:23:51 <fantasai> ... upside is can define restrictions on how it gets updated
05:23:58 <fantasai> ... compared to a Note
05:24:06 <fantasai> ... also lighter weight to update vs REC
05:24:16 <fantasai> ... on the other hand, registries aren't supposed to contain normative statements
05:24:30 <fantasai> ... if the goal is to say "you must implement all that" , can't really
05:24:42 <fantasai> ... can maybe suggest that it could be implemented, but can't be RFC2119 MUST
05:26:22 <xfq> fantasai: we don't have to make this a requirement
05:27:02 <fantasai> ... if there's a strong suggestion that it's a good idea, probably it will get implemente
05:27:21 <fantasai> r12a: I think they wanted to establish a registry in order to keep everyone in sync
05:27:38 <fantasai> r12a: I don't believe that will happen, but I'm concerned about process
05:27:43 <fantasai> ... who will create / maintain?
05:27:57 <fantasai> ... We don't have it in our charter to do REC track stuff
05:28:02 <fantasai> florian: Registries aren't REC
05:28:14 <fantasai> ... I think the process would be have CSSWG create it, and appoint i18nWG as one of the custodians
05:28:24 <fantasai> ... so CSSWG would be in charge of maintaining the rules of the registry
05:28:41 <fantasai> ... but updating the content of it can be done by i18nWG, and there's no overhead (other than what we put in the rules)
05:29:30 <fantasai> r12a: is this likely to happen?
05:29:40 <fantasai> florian: seems likely, the CSSWG resolved to do it, just pending
05:29:46 <fantasai> ... if i18nWG says it's bad idea, can stop it
05:29:51 <fantasai> ... but otherwise assumption is that we'll do it
05:30:50 <fantasai> fantasai: CSSWG resolved that it's a good idea (from their perspective)
05:30:59 <fantasai> ... and so will do it unless i18nWG pushes back
05:31:13 <fantasai> r12a: Some issues, e.g. WebKit ships somali that should be somali-ethiopic or something
05:31:18 <fantasai> ... we're not clear on the names
05:31:36 <fantasai> ... we name latin-script ones after language, and others after writign system, and there are earlier styles that break the rules
05:31:46 <fantasai> ... so we'd have to establish some clearer rules about how to name things
05:31:51 <fantasai> ... a lot of the time, that will be the main issue
05:32:00 <fantasai> ... e.g. there are some styles that are identical to each other
05:32:04 <fantasai> ... only difference is the name
05:32:21 <fantasai> ... and that's because... e.g. maybe some Indian language
05:32:42 <fantasai> ... you name it after the language, even though shared among languages
05:32:59 <fantasai> florian: Do you have these rules/guidelines written, or just shared knowledge
05:33:11 <fantasai> r12a: neither written no shared, because only I maintain the document
05:33:20 <fantasai> florian: It would be good to write these own
05:33:30 <fantasai> ... and identify where there are problems
05:33:38 <fantasai> ... and point that out to CSSWG
05:33:53 <fantasai> florian: also in process of writing, might identify what are *constraints* vs what are stylistic preferences
05:34:08 <fantasai> ... preferences shouldn't be registry rules, but things that should stay constant shoudl be
05:34:23 <fantasai> r12a: Do we put stuff in the registry before or after adoption by browsers?
05:34:27 <fantasai> fantasai: before
05:34:40 <fantasai> r12a: then there's no clarity on which browsers support which styles
05:34:58 <fantasai> florian: Regardless of how displayed, a registry is a table with columns
05:35:05 <fantasai> ... one column can be implementation status
05:35:18 <fantasai> ... and could, e.g. allow browsers to tick box of "I shipped this"
05:35:29 <fantasai> r12a: The problem is finding someone, might not be us, who would track everything
05:35:43 <fantasai> ... every time there's a new release, check the new counter style
05:35:46 <fantasai> ... creating tests
05:35:52 <fantasai> ... gathering results every time
05:35:55 <fantasai> ... and changing docs
05:36:06 <fantasai> florian: if we require tests for every counter, can just use WPT infrastructure to test if it passes now
05:36:10 <fantasai> ... and tick boxes when it does
05:36:22 <fantasai> r12a: these things are easy to do, it's finding someone to do it that's the issue
05:36:31 <fantasai> ... because these can change any time; e.g. I just added 30
05:36:45 <fantasai> ... and didn't add tests yet
05:36:55 <fantasai> ... takes a long time to make the tests
05:37:12 <fantasai> florian: We've been on the receiving end of "don't make normative changes without tests", and that's quite a bottleneck
05:37:36 <fantasai> r12a: wouldn't help authors
05:37:50 <fantasai> ... right now, the way it's set up, you can set it up yourself
05:38:04 <fantasai> ... unless you're wikipedia or something like that, you only need to define a few of them
05:38:08 <fantasai> ... and it'll work across all browsers
05:38:15 <fantasai> ... not a lot of work for a browser to add to their stylesheet
05:38:29 <fantasai> florian: a key reason for this exercise is that it would help with visibility of list... but will it?
05:38:48 <fantasai> ... depends on how devtools exposes it, but supporting syntax doesn't tell anyone it's there
05:38:52 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/test.html
05:39:01 <fantasai> r12a: Btw, I rewrote the document over the last few ays
05:39:05 <fantasai> s/ays/days/
05:39:12 <fantasai> ... going to discuss on Thursday
05:39:21 <fantasai> ... a number of changes, one is single-click copy icon
05:39:36 <fantasai> ... and then there are examples in use
05:39:44 <fantasai> ... that helps identify errors in the document
05:41:02 <fantasai> florian: is there an existing policy about re-using names when the counter style changes?
05:41:09 <fantasai> ... or creating a new one
05:41:17 <fantasai> ... I guess if copy-pasting not as big of an issue
05:41:30 <fantasai> r12a: I don't think I've considered how much change, if any change at all needs a new name
05:41:38 <fantasai> ... e.g. murati vs devanagari there's one letter change
05:41:51 <fantasai> florian: No I mean, if going through a period of reform
05:41:57 <fantasai> r12a: yes, exactly
05:42:14 <fantasai> fantasai: I think if it goes through a reform, need a new counter style
05:42:19 <fantasai> ... but if correcting an error, it doesn't
05:42:27 <fantasai> r12a: consider Malayalam, updated in 1900s
05:42:41 <fantasai> ... we have counter styles for those now, and just call it malayalam
05:42:50 <fantasai> ... if orthography changes again, which might kashimiri
05:43:05 <fantasai> ... do you change it for everyone, or mint a new one?
05:43:16 <fantasai> ... might have cross-references, might break things
05:43:16 <xfq> s/kashimiri/kashmiri/
05:45:07 <fantasai> fantasai: if there's a change, it needs a new name
05:45:19 <fantasai> ... so that authors get the numbering they expected when they wrote it
05:45:29 <fantasai> ... if there's an error in how we defined it, then we fix in place
05:45:36 <fantasai> florian: should expose these questions
05:46:03 <fantasai> florian: current system doesn't have these worries, because author just defines themselves
05:46:10 <fantasai> r12a: Yes, that's why it's a great system
05:46:15 <fantasai> ... yes, you have to copy the definition
05:46:22 <fantasai> ... but then it just works
05:46:39 <fantasai> r12a: How's a registry different from what we have?
05:46:46 <fantasai> florian: Conceptually it's a table, but you don't have to lay it out as a table
05:46:57 <fantasai> ... it's a bunch of entry, with a standard set of components
05:47:24 <fantasai> florian: the thing we'd get in addition to what you have is a set of rules to follow for the editor
05:47:41 <fantasai> ... e.g. you must not add an entry unless X, or you must not change an entry, or you may change an entry in X ways
05:47:57 <fantasai> ... structure of the document wouldn't otherwise need to change
05:48:14 <fantasai> r12a: we were assuming it woudln't be this document
05:48:17 <fantasai> florian: it could be
05:48:39 <fantasai> r12a: we haven't decided to give up ownership of this document :)
05:48:50 <fantasai> florian: could transfer, or could create a new document that sources from yours
05:49:08 <fantasai> r12a: I think that's a better moel, because there are ppl who prefer to use as we've set it up as we have it
05:49:14 <fantasai> florian: the registry can serve both purposes
05:49:37 <fantasai> ... authors can still copy-paste from the registry, even if it's shipping in some browsers
05:50:05 <fantasai> florian: only reason to have different document would be if we want two different lists (e.g. one more complete, one with more vetting)
05:50:12 <fantasai> ... alternatively maintain two lists in the registry
05:50:27 <fantasai> r12a: There are a bunch of built in styles in webkit
05:50:32 <fantasai> ... that are not in this document
05:50:37 <r12a> amharic
05:50:37 <r12a> amharic-abegede
05:50:37 <r12a> ethiopic-abegede
05:50:39 <r12a> ethiopic-abegede-am-et
05:50:41 <fantasai> ... because I couldn't easily reverse-engineer them
05:50:41 <r12a> ethiopic-abegede-gez
05:50:43 <r12a> ethiopic-abegede-ti-er
05:50:45 <r12a> ethiopic-abegede-ti-et
05:50:47 <r12a> ethiopic-halehame-aa-er
05:50:49 <r12a> ethiopic-halehame-aa-et
05:50:51 <r12a> ethiopic-halehame-om-et
05:50:53 <r12a> ethiopic-halehame-sid-et
05:50:55 <r12a> ethiopic-halehame-so-et
05:50:57 <r12a> ethiopic-halehame-tig
05:50:59 <r12a> ethiopic-numeric
05:51:01 <r12a> cjk-ideographic
05:51:03 <r12a> lower-latin
05:51:05 <r12a> somali
05:51:07 <r12a> tigrinya-er
05:51:09 <r12a> tigrinya-er-abegede
05:51:11 <r12a> tigrinya-et
05:51:13 <r12a> tigrinya-et-abegede
05:51:15 <r12a> upper-latin
05:51:17 <r12a> upper-norwegian
05:51:19 <r12a> urdu
05:51:51 <fantasai> r12a: If you look at document in IRC, in addition to single-click copy
05:51:54 <fantasai> ... and examples
05:52:03 <fantasai> ... there's a downward-pointing arrow, pointing to MDN
05:52:12 <fantasai> ... which should tell you which browsers support which styles
05:52:23 <fantasai> ... but that table has errors
05:53:44 <fantasai> ... this highlights the difficulty we'll have maintaining info about what's implemented vs not
05:54:19 <fantasai> fantasai: I think we can let MDN maintain the implementation state
05:54:36 <fantasai> r12a: also that document doesn't link to our document, should do
05:54:40 <r12a> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@counter-style
05:54:40 <fantasai> ... filed an issue
05:55:16 <fantasai> r12a: would be good to find other places where authors go to look for counter styles
05:55:49 <fantasai> florian: maybe better than shipping in UA stylesheet would be building into devtools autocomplete
05:57:06 <fantasai> fantasai: an advantage of shipping is that we can fix errors over time, and it gets fixed for everyone
05:57:12 <fantasai> [florian gives an example]
05:57:22 <fantasai> r12a: you could fix it with ready-made counter styles
05:57:29 <fantasai> fantasai: you can do that whether we ship them or not
05:57:56 <fantasai> r12a: there also needs a rule, if you've fixed it, or if you prefer a different flavor and used the same name as built in
05:58:00 <fantasai> florian: yours wins
05:58:15 <fantasai> ... if that wasn't true, I'd be against this
05:59:00 <fantasai> r12a: the thing most likely to change for a given counter style is the suffix or prefix or both
05:59:12 <fantasai> ... and there are a number of those called out in the document we have, could be more
05:59:23 <fantasai> ... so you might have (counter) or counter) or some other symbol altogether
05:59:29 <fantasai> ... might stay with dot
05:59:47 <fantasai> ... you may use different approaches within same document, depending on level of nesting or context or aesthetics
05:59:58 <fantasai> ... so question is how do we deal with that in the registry
06:00:03 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
06:00:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq
06:00:17 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/test.html#kannada-alpha
06:00:52 <fantasai> r12a: I had panels with alternative prefix/suffix; new version uses counter-style substitution rules
06:01:04 <fantasai> ... and i have canada-alpha, canada-alpha-double-paren
06:01:10 <fantasai> ... but you can have quite a lot
06:01:20 <fantasai> ... and you can invent your own
06:01:36 <fantasai> ... so does this double the size of the registry or what?
06:01:51 <fantasai> ... or how should authors handle this?
06:02:13 <fantasai> fantasai: authors can use extends mechanism
06:02:20 <fantasai> florian: that supposes you can pick the main one
06:02:27 <fantasai> ... maybe it's ok to be arbitrary
06:02:37 <fantasai> r12a: we've changed based on user comments in the past
06:02:46 <fantasai> ... e.g. Indic used to have dot, and they said they use parens
06:02:58 <fantasai> ... so kannada is a good example
06:03:13 <fantasai> ... unsure about some, because don't have feedback
06:03:48 <fantasai> fantasai: probably it's malleable in the early stages
06:04:01 <fantasai> r12a: but if they have to start using extends, will need to write @counter-styles in their stylesheet
06:04:15 <fantasai> ... one line rather than the rest, but once you put some in...
06:04:21 <fantasai> ... almost as easy to define for yourself
06:04:54 <fantasai> fantasai: I think it is easier, don't need to define the numbering system
06:05:04 <fantasai> ... understanding prefix/suffix is much simpler
06:05:20 <fantasai> florian: Another thing is that there's some motivation to get to a system that auto-applies, and can't unless it's built in
06:05:27 <fantasai> ... but I think we *shouldn't* get there
06:05:35 <fantasai> ... so how much motivation do we have for manual version?
06:06:02 <fantasai> florian: There was discussion about auto-translating counter styles
06:06:27 <fantasai> ... and making @rules to define the auto-translation
06:06:43 <fantasai> ... and about maybe building in a counter style that can auto-translate -- but maybe we shouldn't be going there
06:07:06 <fantasai> [florian recaps discussion in csswg]
06:10:22 <fantasai> [discussion about whether auto-translation is reasonable]
06:10:53 <fantasai> r12a: wikipedia has a restricted context
06:11:33 <fantasai> florian: I'm worried about cultural erasure, where someone implements auto-translation into one variant of a language and the other variant gets lost over time because it doesn't get corrected
06:11:44 <fantasai> ... are we going to accidentally change what people's perception of normal is?
06:11:57 <fantasai> r12a: small populations are very unlikely to report
06:12:01 <fantasai> ... they don't know that they can
06:12:07 <fantasai> ... they're used to working around the issue
06:12:20 <fantasai> ... and the browser vendors are likely to ignore because it's so minro
06:12:25 <fantasai> s/minro/minor/
06:12:34 <fantasai> r12a: so I have little confidence that things will change
06:13:02 <fantasai> ACTION: florian and fantasai to have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with CSSWG members
06:13:09 <ghurlbot> Sorry, I don't know what repository to use.
06:13:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1277 - And fantasai to have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members [on Florian Rivoal - due 2023-07-05].
06:13:21 <fantasai> florian: new document looks good to me
06:15:45 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/i18n-tests/results/custom-counter-styles
06:20:19 <r12a> florian, wrt what you were saying about maybe the 'Output in your browser' panels being like tests:
06:20:48 <r12a> in fact, these are all generated from counter style definitions in the document source
06:20:50 <r12a> however
06:21:10 <r12a> there's a new button at https://w3c.github.io/predefined-counter-styles/test.html#builtins
06:21:22 <r12a> which erases all those style declarations
06:21:47 <r12a> then, it does enable you to see which styles are supported by which browsers as built ins
06:22:18 <r12a> (as long as you have a font for that style on your system – otherwise, how would you tell)
06:23:06 <r12a> (for individual users, that's probably a fine assumption, of course, if they are picking something for their own language)
06:25:26 <r12a> zakim, draft minutes
06:25:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', r12a
06:25:28 <florian> I mean, you could make a ref-test where the test is:... (full message at <https://matrix.rivoal.net/_matrix/media/v3/download/rivoal.net/oTEsydkWrqlCbshxiWHRFkzT>)
06:26:32 <r12a> actually that's not so easy
06:27:00 <r12a> i originally tried to create ref tests for the large number of tests you saw in the i18n-test suite
06:27:37 <r12a> but i seem to remember that there were differences in the spacing between browsers that made it difficult
06:27:57 <r12a> i may need to check that i remember that right...
06:29:32 <r12a> ah, disregard that -  i think i figured out a way to do it in the end - sorry for the noise
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