12:59:11 RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl 12:59:16 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/27-epub-fxl-irc 12:59:16 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:59:17 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid 12:59:45 meeting: FXL Accessibility Taskforce Meeting 27 June 2023 12:59:48 chair: wendyreid 13:02:26 present+ 13:02:46 gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl 13:02:50 present+ 13:02:52 CircularKen has joined #epub-fxl 13:02:53 Naomi has joined #epub-fxl 13:03:03 present+ 13:03:09 present+ 13:03:10 jamesY has joined #epub-fxl 13:03:11 present+ 13:03:17 present+ 13:03:18 present+ 13:03:21 JonasLillqvist has joined #epub-fxl 13:05:02 Wet's start with the new people to this group 13:05:23 James: I am a production technologies manager 13:06:18 Jeffrey: I'm with Penguin Random House, I'm on the team that does all children's ebooks... 13:06:33 we have a team that deals with accessiblity in ebooks 13:06:39 https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/59 13:06:56 topic: Investigating the Use of SVG 13:07:05 Hadrien has joined #epub-fxl 13:07:08 present+ 13:07:14 q+ 13:07:18 ack duga 13:07:51 Brady: I found a sample epub that doesn't have any copyrighted images, where should I put it 13:08:24 Brady: it might be too big for GitHub if not I'll use Google drive and share a link 13:08:31 q+ 13:08:35 ack gpellegrino 13:09:08 Gregorio: If Brady can share the file, I can try it with some assistive technologies.. 13:09:25 So we can be sure all of the value chain is ready for this kind of file 13:09:48 Brady: the file has a media overlay, and the ARIA may be bad... 13:10:10 I don't know how to do word/sentance level ARIA... 13:10:33 I don't want to confuse ARIA, so we were leaving the reading of the book to the media overlay... 13:11:02 I don't expect that as it stands this is a wonderful solution, but it worked for content we already had... 13:11:50 Hadrien: What we see with large content, we see nested files like a nested doll... 13:12:06 Any specialized reader will get rid of some of it... 13:12:17 some will get rid of SVG or HTML altogether... 13:12:22 jeffrey_griggs_ has joined #epub-fxl 13:12:32 jeffrey_griggs_ has left #epub-fxl 13:13:11 Some reading systems are specialized and won't use SVG 13:13:18 q+ 13:13:34 Wendy: I guess that raised the question how to address this issues... 13:13:49 ack gpellegrino 13:14:00 we have a specialized reader that handles fixed layouts 13:14:02 jgriggs has joined #epub-fxl 13:14:12 q+ 13:14:16 present+ 13:14:30 Gregorio: We are trying to find solutions for accessible content, right now fxl doesn't fit that... 13:14:41 we may find ways that work in an education context... 13:14:57 we will publicize them so new creators can use these techniques... 13:15:10 right now software can't export SVG so right now it can't be used... 13:15:18 ack Hadrien 13:15:23 we are investigating other great stuff... 13:15:44 Hadrien: We need a solution that doesn't rely on SVG & HTML... 13:15:56 And it needs to work on one page and on spreads... 13:16:29 We were thinking of something we call [replace-me]... 13:16:49 s/[replace-me]/guided navigation 13:16:51 It involves navigating by fragments... 13:17:24 NOTA has been using a screen by screen solution... 13:17:46 I think if we move that direction we can use existing region-based documentation 13:18:00 +1 to multiple solutions :) 13:18:03 for FXL to be successful we will need multiple solutions 13:18:26 Gregorio: on content that is all images, we will need another solution 13:18:41 Wendy: if we are not using HTML or SVG what would we use? 13:19:07 Gregorio: the content for comics is bitmapped. To reference fragments we reference... 13:19:23 fragments in multiple shapes on each page... 13:19:34 There is speculation that this could work in SNIL... 13:19:44 There are people exploring this space... 13:20:06 Is it best to start with Navigation? JSON?... 13:20:25 We care more that people can create an experience... 13:20:42 Guided navigation may not necessarily follow the spine... 13:21:14 We think there are alot of similarities between media overlays and guided navigation 13:21:25 Wendy: how would this be implemented? 13:21:30 https://idpf.org/epub/renditions/region-nav/ 13:21:43 Gregorio: this could be authored or automated... 13:22:00 We see reading systems that can do this on the fly like Apple... 13:22:03 s/Gregorio/Hadrien/ 13:22:29 There are/will be tools for creators to do this... 13:22:32 q+ 13:22:34 ack gpellegrino 13:22:51 q+ 13:23:00 Gregorio: remember when you did a matrix of different types of publications?... 13:23:27 perhaps we could post that in a wiki so we can look for different solutions for different spaces... 13:23:33 to complete the matrix 13:23:38 Wendy: agreed 13:23:41 ack CircularKen 13:24:14 Ken: I did a talk about region navigation, and I have a sample that is already... 13:24:30 a valid Epub3, and has some support from a reader.... 13:24:44 At the moment it is not tied in with media overlays but it could be... 13:24:55 what do we need to have a different file type... 13:25:06 to broaden away from HTML 13:25:19 q+ 13:25:25 Wendy: This has been an issue in the EPUB system... 13:25:42 that there are reading systems that strip out the HTML... 13:26:08 I will reach out to the Japanese because they are at the forefront of this... 13:26:09 q+ 13:26:30 ack Hadrien 13:26:47 Ken: If you have a folder of audio files we can serve them up in order but we need more structiure 13:27:52 Hadrien: I think removing HTML for those reading systems is not necessary... 13:27:52 they use whatever is native to the platform to create a good reading experience... 13:28:01 they are not going to use HTML or SVG to do what they have been doing for years.. 13:28:08 based on bitmaps... 13:29:11 I don't know if we need another format... 13:29:25 ack duga 13:29:37 Maybe we could use SNIL more extensively or another way to use what we have... 13:29:41 Brady: I 13:29:56 s/SNIL/SMIL 13:30:02 'd like to caution against throwing away the containers we have developed... 13:30:51 q+ 13:31:01 we had a case where the reading order changed and the cover didn't display correctly... 13:31:37 I know we're not saying we're getting rid of epub, but we might consider keeping metadata containers.. 13:32:13 Wendy: the EPUB maintenance group is responsible for maintaining the spec for audio etc... 13:32:28 I know the community needs guidance right now about accessible epubs... 13:33:00 ack Hadrien 13:33:02 we can be exploratoratory, its OK for us to suggest things outside of epub... 13:33:36 Hadrien: You are right pointing out that epub is good for communicating metadata and an explicit reading order... 13:33:50 It does require HTML and SVG... 13:34:10 Maybe we can retain all the interesting bits without all the annoying bits... 13:34:38 https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/60 13:34:38 Wendy: We can all argee that metadata and structure are non-negotiable, but the wrapper is negotiable 13:35:16 topic: Text size and font adjustment 13:35:37 Wendy: thank you to Gautier for listing all the ways we could do it... 13:36:04 q+ 13:36:04 Wendy: How do we get text into fixed layout and make it an experience for everyone? 13:36:13 ack Hadrien 13:36:33 Hadrien: I think this will be the most challenging... 13:36:48 If you have text within or that can be extracted from the content... 13:36:56 without affecting the layout... 13:37:12 I don't buy into super complex files... 13:37:15 q+ 13:37:20 +1 one to RS approach 13:37:24 we need to let reading systems choose one or the other... 13:37:33 ack CircularKen 13:37:41 Wendy: How do we best signal to a reading system it should do this 13:38:06 Ken: Mainly you need, section, order, and image descriptions... 13:38:18 if you have these in place in an FXL... 13:38:36 If we can do this things... 13:39:01 Using CSS I was able to discard the 13:39:11 q+ 13:39:23 This is much neater than a complex file... 13:39:27 ack gpellegrino 13:39:30 maybe we could use media queries... 13:39:42 Gregorio: I agree with Ken and Hadrien... 13:40:01 At least for HTML FXL publications we may provide guidance... 13:40:22 for what to do with HTML so reading systems can access it in a different way.. 13:40:28 Gautier has joined #epub-fxl 13:40:37 the tricky part may be how to join two spreads... 13:40:43 it can be done 13:41:14 Wendy: I wonder if when you get into complex text books... 13:41:17 present+ 13:41:20 q+ 13:41:30 the page layout vs content... 13:41:30 q+ 13:42:02 If make these a reflowable, how do we maintain relationship between important images and text 13:42:16 James: it depends on the publication... 13:42:28 We move the images to a more logical location... 13:42:39 close to their original point of discussion... 13:43:05 the highschool market or k-12 does focus on precise layout to grab the reader... 13:43:06 q+ 13:43:12 that is a lot more difficult... 13:43:27 it really does require fixed layout... 13:43:30 ack gpellegrino 13:43:51 q+ 13:44:26 ack Naomi 13:45:07 Gregorio: we all images are put in the flow of the text, images without alt text are not 13:45:37 Naomi: People who can easily make reflowable versions should be encouraged to make reflowable books in the first place... 13:46:01 We can focus on publications that can't be made easily reflowable... 13:46:22 and look at solutions like reflowable containers within a reflowable ebook... 13:46:31 tzviya has joined #epub-fxl 13:46:36 so the text is still in context with the rest of the layout... 13:47:02 the closest existing mechanism is how reading systems display footnotes... 13:47:14 as a popup that can be dismissed... 13:47:39 maybe we can eventually develop tagging that lets reading systems build that overlay or not... 13:47:39 ack Hadrien 13:48:05 Hadrien: we have an API in Readium that breaks down the content into smaller pieces and iterate... 13:48:30 If an FXL is well designed you could use this API to create a reflowable equivalent... 13:48:39 Like browser reader mode... 13:48:45 the main issue is spreads... 13:48:57 we don't have any way to convey information across spreads... 13:49:24 if you have structural elements that cover both it is impossible to display them... 13:49:35 the existence of spreads will limit what we can do... 13:49:36 ack CircularKen 13:50:05 q+ 13:50:06 Ken: Part of the recommendations may be workflow or design recommendations... 13:50:41 ack duga 13:50:44 if you put an image as the background in html... 13:51:04 you can put the more important images in the content... 13:51:24 Brady: 100% of this content was originally a paper book... 13:51:41 you can tell the publisher that they have to change complex layouts... 13:51:50 but they're not going to do that... 13:52:05 This sounds similar to our bubble zoom, but instead of images... 13:52:26 q+ 13:52:28 you could adjust the text, contrast, improved screen reader... 13:52:43 we could approach this will region nav... 13:52:59 ack Naomi 13:52:59 bubble zoom would work with text that is small... 13:53:19 Naomi: while we can't tell people what they can do... 13:53:32 q+ 13:53:46 we can suggest that layouts without a logical reading order we can suggest... 13:54:06 that this is inaccessible, here is a potential solution... 13:54:16 ack Hadrien 13:54:36 Hadrien: that is a good solution, but a solution with a compromize... 13:54:45 I think it is worth mentioning... 13:55:10 we could suggest region navigation that could work across spreads... 13:55:42 some of the semantics will be omitted but the reading order will be right... 13:55:51 it might not be best for screen readers 13:56:29 https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/pull/63 13:56:35 Wendy: focus: Describe what is an accessible fixed layout epub 13:57:00 Wendy: for the next meeting next time I'll try to have that matrix... 13:57:11 we can discuss what approach works for which kind of content... 13:57:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:57:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/27-epub-fxl-minutes.html wendyreid 13:59:17 duga has left #epub-fxl 14:20:03 zakim, end meeting 14:20:03 As of this point the attendees have been duga, SueNeu, Naomi, CircularKen, wendyreid, jamesY, gpellegrino, Hadrien, jgriggs, Gautier 14:20:05 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:20:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/27-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim 14:20:12 I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 14:20:13 Zakim has left #epub-fxl