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15:59:10 <shadi> Meeting: Guidance for Policy Makers Subgroup
15:59:15 <shadi> Chair: Shadi
15:59:19 <shadi> present+
16:00:43 <wendyreid> present+
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16:01:55 <Azlan> present+
16:01:57 <jaunita_george> Present+
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16:02:04 <bruce_bailey> present+
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16:02:59 <wendyreid> scribe+
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16:03:50 <wendyreid> shadi: What I want to do today is try to switch from our initial setting-up mode and brainstorm
16:04:01 <wendyreid> ... and get into more what the guidance document could look like
16:04:16 <wendyreid> ... emphasis on "could", I see this as an iterative and blue-sky plan
16:04:30 <wendyreid> ... just starting with a debrief from last week's AGWG meeting
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16:04:46 <SusiPallero> present+
16:05:04 <wendyreid> ... hope everyone has had a chance to look over the minutes from last week
16:05:06 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2023/06/20-ag-minutes.html
16:05:16 <wendyreid> shadi: This is the main group, the AG call
16:05:21 <wendyreid> ... we presented the slides
16:05:37 <wendyreid> ... there wasn't really much discussion
16:05:47 <wendyreid> ... some clarification from Gregg on the relationship to conformance
16:06:02 <wendyreid> ... a reminder that we're not working on the conformance section, but there might be outputs
16:06:24 <wendyreid> ... like the idea of when entering data, when a web page accepts inputs, to check that for accessibility
16:06:29 <wendyreid> ... one possible conformance requirement
16:06:40 <wendyreid> ... it is an idea that came out of our brainstorming
16:07:04 <wendyreid> ... there are some technical requirements coming from our work, but also the guidance for policy makers in adoption of WCAG 3
16:07:15 <wendyreid> ... mainly our presentation, and I'll post the link to the slides
16:07:19 <shadi> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1y_uNtKFOrvVmtVgDmqWTHe_vsLwTfXYBJQ39un6UKNE/edit#slide=id.p
16:07:27 <wendyreid> ... anyone else have any thoughts or comments?
16:07:31 <wendyreid> q?
16:07:37 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:07:46 <wendyreid> ack bruce_bailey
16:07:55 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: You got permission to go three extra weeks
16:08:21 <wendyreid> shadi: Thanks Bruce, during the meeting on the 12th, the issue came up that we need more time due to missing meetings
16:08:25 <wendyreid> ... public holidays etc
16:08:29 <wendyreid> ... can we extend
16:08:48 <wendyreid> ... so I asked the chairs offline, and they wanted to know if the participants wanted to extend
16:08:59 <wendyreid> ... if people agree, and there was no disageement
16:09:22 <wendyreid> ... reported back to the chairs, more agreement than disagreement, so they granted an extension to the 24th of july
16:09:30 <wendyreid> ... also reported in the minutes
16:09:38 <wendyreid> ... any thoughts on this?
16:09:45 <wendyreid> ... reported on tuesday as well
16:09:55 <mgifford2> Extending sounds good to me.
16:10:01 <SusiPallero> +1
16:10:17 <wendyreid> shadi: No comments or follow up from the discussion last week
16:10:29 <wendyreid> ... trying to get to, if you haven't seen the slides, check them out
16:10:45 <wendyreid> ... it's more than just a report, it's also an aid for us to determine where we're going
16:11:05 <wendyreid> ... last monday's meeting helped us align internally and next steps
16:11:25 <wendyreid> ... two phases, first phase was brainstorming
16:11:47 <wendyreid> ... second phase, which I want to enter today, is starting to collect data / aggregate into documentation
16:12:04 <wendyreid> ... see if anyone has any further thoughts on where we are, where we're headed
16:12:13 <wendyreid> ... questions, guidance?
16:12:19 <wendyreid> q?
16:12:35 <wendyreid> shadi: With this, I assume everyone is up to speed and read the minutes and slides
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16:12:44 <Cyborg> Present+
16:12:46 <wendyreid> ... is up to date with where we are and where we're heading
16:13:41 <wendyreid> shadi: Ok that was the lead in, let's transition to doing a topic
16:13:45 <shadi> Topic: Outline of Guidance Document
16:14:29 <shadi> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B-qfTrPxnhIa0AxhPEF6SIDTLAGnneoauBRHGzS5q7U/edit
16:14:31 <wendyreid> shadi: [sharing screen]
16:15:00 <wendyreid> ... just to walk people through
16:15:45 <wendyreid> ... going from top to bottom
16:15:50 <wendyreid> ... introduction is unchanged
16:15:59 <wendyreid> ... have noted the extension
16:16:13 <wendyreid> ... next heading (level 2), I've started working on an outline
16:16:20 <wendyreid> ... abstract, three sentences to review
16:16:26 <wendyreid> ... introduction and problem description
16:16:42 <wendyreid> ... then jump right into the considerations
16:17:05 <wendyreid> ... what I hope we can get through is the introduction, then sketch out the considerations
16:17:09 <wendyreid> ... over the coming weeks
16:17:31 <wendyreid> ... for discussion today, there is another heading level 2 with discussion for today
16:17:38 <wendyreid> ... potential list of considerations
16:18:16 <wendyreid> ... consider requiring web/app owners to provide accessibility statement, other topics
16:18:26 <wendyreid> ... do we want to say anything about standards harmonization
16:18:53 <wendyreid> ... I was more focused on the considerations, but as I was working on the abstract, it came up
16:18:59 <wendyreid> ... [reads abstract]
16:19:57 <wendyreid> ... when i started in accessibility, every country had different versions of standards, moving to harmonized standards helps with adoption
16:20:07 <wendyreid> ... abstract, then overall scope, then specifics
16:20:19 <bruce_bailey> q+ to plus one
16:20:24 <wendyreid> ... question, any comments?
16:20:48 <wendyreid> garcialo: I like this foundation, since policy makers aren't technical, I think going straight into the considerations is a good structure
16:20:54 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: Big +1 to that
16:21:29 <wendyreid> ... the two times where agencies have tried to make reference, confused by conforming alternate versions, definitions, they ignore them since they are confused
16:21:32 <wendyreid> ack bruce_bailey
16:21:32 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to plus one
16:21:39 <wendyreid> shadi: Hearing some support
16:21:43 <wendyreid> +1
16:21:54 <wendyreid> shadi: Let's quickly discuss the abstract
16:22:00 <wendyreid> ... it's vague and brief
16:22:11 <wendyreid> ... which it should be, I see it as an executive summary
16:22:21 <bruce_bailey> also definition of web page is tempting for regulators to mess with
16:22:25 <wendyreid> ... it's iterative, back and forth, we develop it, work on the doc, go back
16:22:32 <wendyreid> garcialo: Looks good
16:22:42 <wendyreid> Jason_K: Is there a specific question we're trying to answer here?
16:22:51 <wendyreid> ... how are policy makers meant to implement WCAG?
16:22:58 <wendyreid> shadi: That's a good question
16:23:17 <wendyreid> mgifford2: Could go about it by how not to do it?
16:23:33 <wendyreid> ... like a client, they formulated their contract based on meeting a siteimprove score
16:23:55 <wendyreid> ... it's not the same as WCAG or section 508, but it's a policy that an org tried to meet that got in the way of accessibility
16:24:19 <wendyreid> garcialo: I don't know if I'd start from a negative, but it sounds like we should say something like "use WCAG itself"
16:24:27 <wendyreid> ... just use WCAG without modifications
16:24:50 <wendyreid> shadi: Use WCAG, but also recognize that WCAG is a means, not the eend
16:25:04 <wendyreid> ... a cornerstone of achieving accessibility, but not the only way
16:25:10 <wendyreid> ... which goes into the considerations
16:25:29 <wendyreid> ... to Jason's question, what are common pitfalls that policy makers do when people implement WCAG in policy
16:25:52 <wendyreid> mgifford2: They don't go and implement that the internet and tech is always changing
16:25:58 <wendyreid> ... "this" and future releases
16:26:05 <wendyreid> ... instead stuck at a specific version
16:26:09 <Cyborg> q+
16:26:25 <wendyreid> mgifford2: make sure docs is relevant
16:26:38 <wendyreid> garcialo: WCAG 3 is more meant to be evergreen than WCAG 2
16:26:47 <wendyreid> shadi: Less about the standard and more about moving forward
16:27:01 <wendyreid> ... there are few policies that can refer to evergreen standards
16:27:04 <Azlan> q+ to say "plan to achieve/maintain" should cover staying relevant
16:27:06 <wendyreid> ... need a mechanism for transfer
16:27:16 <wendyreid> ... we're going beyond use cases
16:27:22 <wendyreid> ... but that's a good thing
16:27:31 <wendyreid> ... linked to maturity model
16:27:44 <wendyreid> Cyborg: Just going to say a few things
16:27:59 <bruce_bailey> Yes, U.S. are required to cite to date certain versions
16:28:03 <wendyreid> ... first one, regarding ever green, I know this conversation has happened
16:28:04 <mgifford2> We can hear you Cyborg
16:28:36 <wendyreid> ... my understanding to date, essentially WCAG would be fixed until a new version, people need to rely on the version, but the how-tos and methodology docs would update as advances happened
16:28:54 <wendyreid> ... for those that want to be ready, they can, but not compelled to do them
16:29:24 <wendyreid> ... we can point to being mindful of where WCAG is going by keeping an eye out for new methodologies, there is a living document accompanying the fixed one
16:29:39 <wendyreid> ... second one, pitfalls, one of them is lowering the bar instead of striving
16:29:56 <wendyreid> ... a spirit of there being more to do, even when there is a low bar
16:29:57 <mgifford2> WCAG is the floor, not the ceiling.
16:30:05 <wendyreid> ... another pitfall is reactivity
16:30:15 <wendyreid> ... encouraging orgs to engage early and often
16:30:52 <wendyreid> ... an issue around, from the canadian perspective, the combination of AODA, the human rights code, there is a lot of onus on the individual to go through a long process to get remedy
16:30:58 <wendyreid> ... issue around collective rights
16:31:02 <wendyreid> ... I posted a link
16:31:19 <wendyreid> ... a new add to the duty to accommodate in the ontario human rights code around inclusive design
16:31:34 <mgifford2> We really should talk about some guidance about the equivalent of AAA recommendation. I've forgotten how WCAG3 talks about this. Gold?
16:31:35 <wendyreid> ... it falls between the individual right to accommodate and the collective right
16:31:46 <wendyreid> ... it's a crack, we should consider it
16:32:03 <wendyreid> ... there are complex interactive needs of multiple disabilities, there are collective needs, we need to consider those
16:32:10 <wendyreid> ... hit the issue from both sides
16:32:29 <wendyreid> ... the human rights side, the legal side, noting the complex interactive needs
16:32:38 <wendyreid> ... there are patterns of need based on the collective
16:33:18 <wendyreid> shadi: I don't think we need to delve into the specific design of WCAG 3, there is still a lot to decide
16:33:27 <wendyreid> ... whatever we decide to facilitate transition
16:33:32 <wendyreid> ... policy makers should consider them too
16:33:43 <wendyreid> ... not just newer versions, but also newer technologies
16:33:55 <wendyreid> ... future-proofing policies
16:34:15 <wendyreid> ... there is already the idea that WCAG is not the end, and policy should do additions
16:34:32 <wendyreid> ... not sure if we'll get through the full list by the end of the sub-group
16:34:48 <wendyreid> ... hopefully we can get a stable abstract and introduction and some considerations
16:35:02 <wendyreid> ... a first version, if its workable, we can create new sub-groups to carry on the work
16:35:12 <wendyreid> ... so many good recommendations so far
16:35:17 <Jason_K> q+
16:35:18 <Cyborg> futureproofing comment...spirit of striving for higher bar/WCAG as floor to stand on (need to build on it), proactive (early & often) approach needed, consider collective needs (complex layered nature of needs for those w multiple disabilities/intersectional identities/pattern of community/collective needs
16:35:22 <shadi> ack Cyborg
16:35:25 <shadi> ack Azlan
16:35:25 <Zakim> Azlan, you wanted to say "plan to achieve/maintain" should cover staying relevant
16:35:46 <wendyreid> Azlan: We've stated in lots of different ways, we're all agreed in stating things on having a plan, a roadmap, maintaining levels
16:36:10 <wendyreid> ... talking about the maturity model, and I love what Cyborg said about WCAG being the floor not the ceiling
16:36:15 <wendyreid> ... we aim to do better
16:36:30 <wendyreid> ... it's a continuous change and review process
16:36:59 <wendyreid> ... especially as more and more becomes available to build the standard and what the web/app owners get from their products
16:37:11 <wendyreid> ... I think we can expand and look to help support with what we're doing
16:37:42 <wendyreid> shadi: We'll unpack as many as we can here
16:37:54 <wendyreid> ... we're really looking at this from a purely technical perspective
16:38:19 <mgifford2> q+
16:38:28 <wendyreid> ... my understanding of scope and competency W3C has, all the comments apply, but we're looking at the technical adoption considerations
16:38:35 <wendyreid> ack Jason_K
16:38:48 <shadi> ack Jason_K
16:38:50 <wendyreid> Jason_K: A few people have mentioned, this document is not meant to take away from WCAG
16:39:10 <wendyreid> ... it might be worth clarifying the relationship of this document to WCAG, it's not taking away, how to use it
16:39:16 <wendyreid> ... when it's meant to be used
16:39:21 <wendyreid> shadi: Fully agree
16:39:25 <Cyborg> q+
16:39:41 <wendyreid> ... the abstract cover this, it's complementary
16:39:49 <wendyreid> ... but I think we can elaborate in the introduction
16:40:11 <shadi> ack mgifford2
16:40:15 <shadi> ack mgifford
16:40:18 <mgifford2> Just looking to see how we incorporate best practices being developed by the W3C such as https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/ & https://www.w3.org/WAI/planning/arrm/
16:40:23 <wendyreid> mgifford2: Thought it would be useful to point to existing W3C initiatives
16:40:39 <wendyreid> ... linked to the ACT guidelines, the ARRM guidelines
16:40:43 <wendyreid> ... the maturity model
16:40:58 <wendyreid> ... aware of the other work W3C is doing, and how to get involved
16:41:10 <wendyreid> ... it's possible for policy makers to actually get involved and participate
16:41:23 <wendyreid> ... improve their own docs and the collective docs
16:42:00 <mgifford2> https://www.w3.org/TR/maturity-model/
16:42:00 <wendyreid> shadi: Agreed, this is probably going to expand over time
16:42:11 <shadi> ack Cyborg
16:42:23 <wendyreid> Cyborg: I just want to build on the last 2 comments
16:42:33 <wendyreid> ... we're talking about the policy maker audience
16:42:51 <wendyreid> ... embedded in the doc is also an audience of organizational policy makers
16:43:02 <wendyreid> ... the manager, the accessibility lead, the designer
16:43:18 <wendyreid> ... from an organizational perspective, we've aimed it so far on people who can set strategy
16:43:36 <wendyreid> ... if there is an audience that is policy makers who plan and identify direction in terms of accessibility
16:43:45 <wendyreid> ... there is an opportunity to bridge that relationship
16:44:12 <wendyreid> ... if there was a meeting between government bodies implementing regulations, and those they are regulation, where there could be discussion about this document
16:44:27 <wendyreid> ... not necessarily implementation but strategy
16:44:45 <wendyreid> s/are regulation/are regulating/
16:44:51 <wendyreid> shadi: Good suggestions
16:45:04 <wendyreid> ... [making changes to doc as we discuss]
16:45:22 <wendyreid> ... maybe we can elaborate within the main body of the doc
16:45:49 <wendyreid> ... people involved in the policy-making process, so people with disabilities, affinity groups, strategy setters, advisors.
16:46:08 <wendyreid> ... often you will get people who are influential in advising the process
16:46:48 <wendyreid> Cyborg: Don't disagree, I'm suggesting something slightly different, who within an organization sets the policies and processes for handling accessibility
16:47:01 <wendyreid> ... i.e. something setting up a plan for what happens when a bug arises
16:47:22 <wendyreid> ... let's say we recommend that organizations have an accessibility quality plan
16:47:35 <wendyreid> ... here's how we handle it, how we report to authority
16:47:49 <wendyreid> ... there are people responsible for doing the work, and they are an audience for this document
16:48:02 <wendyreid> shadi: Does this relate to the roles and reponsibilities?
16:48:34 <wendyreid> Cyborg: More senior management, not sure how much ARRM goes into senior responsibilities
16:48:47 <wendyreid> ... may be someone like head of accessibility for an org, or 2-3 people on the team
16:49:01 <wendyreid> ... setting the process/policy for these protocols
16:49:08 <wendyreid> ... someone with responsibility
16:49:15 <wendyreid> shadi: I understand more
16:49:35 <wendyreid> ... I would like people, as homework, to look at the maturity model, planning and managing web accessibility, and the ARRM
16:49:53 <garcialo> Just a headsup that we have 10 minutes left
16:49:55 <shadi> qß
16:50:02 <shadi> q?
16:50:02 <wendyreid> ... look at additional ideas beyond the use cases we've been looking at
16:50:05 <SusiPallero> I am part of the Maturity Model's working group so I can collaborate with that
16:50:38 <wendyreid> shadi: We have 10 minutes left, let me summarize where we are
16:50:45 <wendyreid> ... this is a rough and early outline
16:51:07 <wendyreid> ... we have a title, an abstract, it's a start
16:51:16 <wendyreid> ... line in the sand to work from
16:51:24 <wendyreid> ... I'm going to start working on an introduction
16:51:33 <Cyborg> one way to deal with senior accessibility direction setters within organizations to develop protocols, organizational practices, maturity models, etc is through roundtables.
16:51:47 <mgifford2> q+
16:51:48 <wendyreid> ... this will help give us a framing on how we see this work and how we're communicating it externally
16:52:02 <wendyreid> ... then we can focus on a few considerations, then we're on our way
16:52:04 <Cyborg> to encourage building out this work in a manner that has growth
16:52:09 <wendyreid> ... the overall plan before july 24
16:52:19 <wendyreid> ... details is where all the work happens
16:52:25 <wendyreid> ... but I'm not hearing opposition
16:52:27 <shadi> ack mgifford2
16:52:45 <garcialo> +1 to just add considerations
16:52:53 <wendyreid> mgifford2: The abstract and intro could be written after the fact, I wonder if we should focus on the considerations
16:52:59 <wendyreid> ... if we can draft something we can dicuss
16:53:00 <Cyborg> +1 to Mike's suggestion - getting concrete
16:53:06 <wendyreid> ... if we work asynchronously
16:53:25 <wendyreid> shadi: Agreed,  I think we need to do both, work in parallel
16:53:39 <wendyreid> ... I do think the introduction and problem description comes up a lot
16:53:45 <wendyreid> ... we need the framing and the content
16:53:58 <wendyreid> ... if people are able to volunteer to tackle the considerations
16:54:01 <mgifford2> Totally about working in parallel. The intro will help inform the considerations, but we're going to need to revise the introduction based on what considerations we end up running with.
16:54:08 <wendyreid> ... the first few come from our brainstorming discussions
16:54:42 <wendyreid> ... considerations like a11y statement
16:54:58 <wendyreid> ... or mechanism for users with disabilities to report bugs
16:55:10 <wendyreid> ... one we haven't discussed much is providing training and awareness raising
16:55:23 <mgifford2> I like the role specific training consideration for sure!
16:55:42 <wendyreid> ... there could be ideas from the maturity model or planning docs
16:55:48 <wendyreid> ... we can't get through all
16:55:58 <Cyborg> training - maybe reframing as cultivating leadership?
16:56:06 <wendyreid> ... if we can get consensus on 2-3 of these, we've established an outline for people to see how the document can progress
16:56:40 <wendyreid> shadi: Does anyone want to get started on any of them?
16:56:42 <jaunita_george> I can help too
16:56:52 <wendyreid> mgifford2: Happy to get started on 1 or 2 to draft for review
16:57:12 <wendyreid> shadi: Any favourites?
16:57:15 <wendyreid> mgifford2: I can't pick!
16:57:27 <wendyreid> garcialo: The second one would be good
16:57:46 <wendyreid> mgifford2: That's built into the a11y statement in the EU?
16:57:58 <wendyreid> shadi: For the web a11y directive, it needs to be linked from the statement
16:58:01 <bruce_bailey> "accessibility statements" common on u.s. gov sites as well
16:58:02 <wendyreid> ... for EAA it depends
16:58:08 <wendyreid> ... whether it's web or a product
16:58:28 <wendyreid> Cyborg: +1 on doing it through an a11y statement approach
16:58:31 <jaunita_george> I don't mind taking any of these on
16:58:42 <wendyreid> shadi: We're not designing a policy, we're giving considerations to policy makers
16:59:03 <wendyreid> ... too many countries with different systems
16:59:17 <bruce_bailey> https://www.section508.gov/manage/laws-and-policies/website-accessibility-statement/
16:59:18 <wendyreid> ... we're not saying how to do it, but here's what to consider when you do
16:59:29 <wendyreid> shadi: If people want to get started, go for it
16:59:34 <wendyreid> ... don't go too wild
16:59:41 <wendyreid> ... start small and then we can build out
17:00:08 <wendyreid> ... feel free to take a stab at a consideration, and I'll work on the introduction
17:00:21 <wendyreid> ... so people have time to look, I'll send it on Friday
17:00:41 <jaunita_george> I'm not in the 4th, but am in the 3rd
17:00:52 <mgifford2> Sorry..
17:00:55 <wendyreid> ... maybe no meeting next week due to holidays?
17:01:23 <garcialo> I would be able to make a meeting; or maybe an unofficial working session at the time
17:01:32 <wendyreid> shadi: We still have some people to keep going, it's ok if people need to miss
17:01:42 <wendyreid> ... thanks everyone!
17:01:50 <wendyreid> ... if you can, we'll meet next weke.
17:01:51 <mgifford2> thanks
17:01:57 <wendyreid> s/weke/week
17:02:12 <wendyreid> shadi: Homework, read the maturity model, ARRM, ACT, etc.
17:02:17 <wendyreid> ... or take a stab at a considerations
17:02:22 <Azlan> Thanks
17:02:29 <shadi> https://w3c.github.io/maturity-model/
17:02:34 <garcialo> garcialo has left #wcag3-policy
17:02:40 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/planning-and-managing/
17:03:01 <shadi> zakim, end meeting
17:03:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shadi, wendyreid, Azlan, jaunita_george, bruce_bailey, garcialo, Jason_K, SusiPallero, Cyborg
17:03:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/26-wcag3-policy-minutes.html Zakim
17:03:07 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shadi; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:03:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag3-policy
17:40:52 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
17:40:58 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:41:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/26-wcag3-policy-minutes.html shadi
17:41:13 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
17:41:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items