IRC log of aria on 2023-06-22
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:58:32 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 16:58:36 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-aria-irc
- 16:58:37 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 16:58:38 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
- 16:58:42 [jamesn]
- meeting: ARIA WG
- 16:58:50 [jamesn]
- agendabot, find agenda
- 16:58:50 [agendabot]
- jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
- 16:58:51 [agendabot]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230629T130000/
- 16:58:51 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 16:58:51 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> 日本語ホームページJapanese website https://www.w3.org/ja/
- 16:58:51 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> 简体中文首页Chinese website https://www.w3.org/zh-hans/
- 16:58:54 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Standards https://www.w3.org/standards/
- 16:58:56 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Groups https://www.w3.org/groups/
- 16:58:59 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Get involved https://www.w3.org/get-involved/
- 16:59:01 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Resources https://www.w3.org/resources/
- 16:59:04 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> News and events https://www.w3.org/news-events/
- 16:59:06 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> About https://www.w3.org/about/
- 16:59:09 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Searchalt https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aw3.org&ia=web
- 16:59:12 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> My account alt https://www.w3.org/users/myprofile/
- 16:59:13 [jamesn]
- zakim, clear agenda
- 16:59:14 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 16:59:14 [Adam_Page]
- Adam_Page has joined #aria
- 17:00:54 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/55pwk6w5)
- 17:00:54 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/erndjtaw)
- 17:00:54 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) - [Considerations for focusgroup](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947)
- 17:00:54 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [`aria-controls` with late-mounted elements](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1956)
- 17:00:55 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [Consider ignoring pseudo element content for accname if it has empty alt text](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/194)
- 17:00:58 [MarioB]
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- 17:01:00 [pkra]
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- 17:01:42 [pkra]
- present+
- 17:01:45 [Francis_Storr]
- present+
- 17:06:20 [alisonmaher]
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- 17:07:32 [arigilmore]
- arigilmore has joined #aria
- 17:07:37 [arigilmore]
- present+
- 17:08:16 [alisonmaher]
- present+
- 17:08:51 [siri]
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- 17:09:11 [Adam_Page]
- present+
- 17:09:17 [dmontalvo]
- present+ Daniel
- 17:09:27 [myasonik]
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- 17:09:57 [myasonik]
- present+
- 17:10:39 [spectranaut_]
- present+
- 17:10:44 [jamesn]
- present+
- 17:10:50 [jamesn]
- chair: jamesn
- 17:11:02 [spectranaut_]
- scribe:
- 17:11:05 [spectranaut_]
- Zakim, next item
- 17:11:05 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/55pwk6w5) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 17:11:12 [sarah_h]
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- 17:11:14 [sarah_h]
- present+
- 17:11:14 [spectranaut_]
- scribe+
- 17:11:26 [Doug]
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- 17:11:50 [spectranaut_]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1960
- 17:12:25 [spectranaut_]
- sarah: selection for multiple cells within a row or cells within a grid, you have mix state on the row or column
- 17:12:39 [spectranaut_]
- sarah: or you have a checkbox within the cell, and you arrow within the row
- 17:12:54 [spectranaut_]
- sarah: or table commands to move through cells, to expose the current checked state
- 17:13:02 [spectranaut_]
- sarah: its a small change if it is not controversal
- 17:13:20 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: why are we looking to add more stuff to something that doesn't work very well
- 17:13:34 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: I have abandoned hope that aria-select would be useful for multiple selection
- 17:13:54 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: selected isn't exposed by some, not selected is not working for others -- mostly it works when selection is following focus
- 17:14:11 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: but if you are trying to expose a permanent selected/unselected state
- 17:14:17 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: lets agenda+
- 17:14:30 [daniel-montalvo]
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- 17:14:41 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: seems like there is more to discuss. I'm hesitant to add more features when what we currently have doesn't work
- 17:14:53 [spectranaut_]
- ??: selected is the correct semantic
- 17:15:32 [spectranaut_]
- https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aam/issues/30
- 17:15:49 [spectranaut_]
- issue for tracking status
- 17:16:01 [spectranaut_]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957
- 17:16:39 [spectranaut_]
- Doug: scott helped me set this up, the goal is to set up discussions in the background discussion groups
- 17:16:59 [spectranaut_]
- Doug: some of this is low hanging fruit
- 17:17:08 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I'll put this in the notification project
- 17:17:42 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: should we agenda this for next week
- 17:18:14 [spectranaut_]
- Zakim, next item
- 17:18:14 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/erndjtaw) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 17:18:28 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, close this item
- 17:18:28 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 closed
- 17:18:29 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:18:29 [Zakim]
- 3. [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) - [Considerations for focusgroup](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947) [from jamesn]
- 17:18:32 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 17:18:32 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) - [Considerations for focusgroup](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 17:19:16 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: should we discuss next week?
- 17:19:25 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: yes please
- 17:19:34 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: let me know if I should invite anyone from outside the group
- 17:20:01 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: btw we have cancelled the july 6th meeting
- 17:20:27 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 17:20:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- [`aria-controls` with late-mounted elements](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1956) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 17:21:11 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: my reply to this involved taking pieces out of the spec... adding aria-controls with an invalid value should be ignored
- 17:21:27 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: but I think it looks like an author error, it looks like validators should flag
- 17:21:36 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: because it is in a section called "handling author errors"
- 17:21:52 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: it seems like it shouldn't be an author error and that we should maybe move it
- 17:21:57 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: do people agree with me on this?
- 17:22:16 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: or should people work around this another way
- 17:23:26 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: clarification question, as I understand, there are two choices, one is that it is an author error to specify an invalid control on anything that takes an id reference, two is user agents are responsible for not exposing the attribute if it has an invalid reference
- 17:23:37 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: yes, currently, user agents are responsible, (2)
- 17:23:59 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: (reads the handling authors error section)
- 17:24:37 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: the dom will still show, in the accessibility apis they are not exposed
- 17:25:04 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: therefor html validators show this as an error
- 17:25:32 [spectranaut_]
- mario: do validators validate static state
- 17:25:42 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: validators don't have access to the accessibility tree
- 17:25:48 [spectranaut_]
- mario: oh I see
- 17:25:57 [spectranaut_]
- mario: its a problem they validate the DOM
- 17:26:21 [spectranaut_]
- curtis: that is a problem we have, no way to validate the accessiblity tree
- 17:26:33 [sarah_h]
- q+
- 17:27:07 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: the problem is this might be an error, but also there are cases where the thing that aria-controls points to might not be in the page all the time
- 17:27:25 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: there are some wrangling things we could do, for example, only an error on an expandable widget when expanded
- 17:27:32 [sarah_h]
- ack me
- 17:27:37 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: I think this came up in an axe core issue at some point
- 17:27:38 [jamesn]
- q+
- 17:27:44 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: I think we could spec that
- 17:27:47 [CurtBellew]
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- 17:28:05 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: is that fixing the problem, or only a version of the problem?
- 17:28:07 [CurtBellew]
- present+
- 17:28:34 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: what about aria-describedby on something, and it references 3 id references, and one is only present in certain error conditions and not at other times. more commonly it is empty. a tool tip for example
- 17:29:02 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: we ran into that, the tooltip only appears on focus, and you navigate to something without focus then you don't get the description
- 17:29:11 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: the cases where it is not an error are pretty scoped
- 17:29:13 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I
- 17:29:13 [CurtBellew]
- q+
- 17:29:31 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 17:29:31 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I've seen cases of error text which point to an error text that is only there sometimes
- 17:29:56 [spectranaut_]
- CurtBellew: I heard someone say that this could be a warning. full disclosure, we use axe but silence this error
- 17:30:06 [spectranaut_]
- CurtBellew: the id references don't exist until they are rendered
- 17:30:15 [spectranaut_]
- CurtBellew: active descendent, all kinds
- 17:31:12 [spectranaut_]
- mario: maybe the author should put the attribute at the same time that the element with the id is dynamically put into the page. but when the author has to think about it, to put the attribute at the same time, we should say the attribute that links to the element with ids are not required
- 17:31:32 [spectranaut_]
- mario: if they are not required, then it is possible to put them on the element at a later time
- 17:31:44 [pkra]
- I have to drop off early -- sorry! Talk to you all next week.
- 17:31:44 [spectranaut_]
- q+ dmontalvo
- 17:32:02 [jamesn]
- ack CurtBellew
- 17:32:02 [spectranaut_]
- q+ cyn
- 17:32:26 [spectranaut_]
- ack dmontalvo
- 17:32:33 [dmontalvo]
- q-
- 17:32:38 [jamesn]
- ack cyn
- 17:32:48 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: it still feels like a warning to me
- 17:33:08 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: maybe it would be better if authors added at the create the thing, but it doesn't actually cause a problem, so
- 17:33:09 [jamesn]
- q+
- 17:33:13 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: seems to me we should let it be
- 17:33:54 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I guess if we move this out of authoring error... there is a previous section called id reference error processing.. not is not it
- 17:34:00 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: do we ever do notes to validators
- 17:34:25 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I think we should move from handling authors error to "state and property attribute processing" section
- 17:34:32 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: we could add user agents must in there
- 17:34:34 [Marcelo]
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- 17:34:42 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: we could add a note to validators that this is just a warning in validators
- 17:34:47 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: what do people thing of that
- 17:34:49 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: +1
- 17:34:52 [spectranaut_]
- mario: +1
- 17:34:54 [CurtBellew]
- +1
- 17:35:00 [sarah_h]
- +1
- 17:35:03 [Adam_Page]
- +1
- 17:35:22 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: the whole "state and property attribute processing" is a whole wall of text and could use a rewrite
- 17:35:38 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: the must statements must be clear and stand alone
- 17:35:52 [spectranaut_]
- james: and it's weird there are authors must....
- 17:36:08 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: those should be notes that point to where they are actually listed, if it is replicated
- 17:36:44 [Marcelo]
- I could pair with someone, so I can learn the process
- 17:38:21 [Marcelo]
- mpaiva
- 17:38:35 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: I can help you some with that
- 17:38:39 [jamesn]
- s/mpaiva//
- 17:38:42 [Marcelo]
- thanks
- 17:39:26 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: on this issue, you suggested a PR that would have a scope bigger than this issue
- 17:39:36 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: is that what you are looking for?
- 17:40:02 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: it feels like just moving this to that section would lead to a very difficult to read section. It becomes less useful.
- 17:40:18 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: I see, you see it has necessary scope
- 17:41:05 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: it doesn't have to be a separate issue
- 17:42:08 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 17:42:08 [Zakim]
- I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, spectranaut_
- 17:42:14 [spectranaut_]
- q?
- 17:42:17 [spectranaut_]
- ack jamesn
- 17:42:20 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 17:42:20 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- [Consider ignoring pseudo element content for accname if it has empty alt text](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/194) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 17:42:53 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: this is about css generate content, where alt text is specified in it
- 17:43:06 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I was hoping we could have some folks commenting about how this should be resolved
- 17:43:20 [spectranaut_]
- bryan: in the accessibility tree, is that represented as a node the same way an image would be
- 17:43:28 [spectranaut_]
- bryan: if role="none"
- 17:44:11 [spectranaut_]
- james: after and before content, where you specify text or a presentation semantics, or empty text
- 17:44:18 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: as the content
- 17:44:35 [spectranaut_]
- bryan: if you specify empty text... it should be hidden?
- 17:44:40 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: that is the question
- 17:44:52 [spectranaut_]
- bryan: I'm just not sure what happens in the accesisbility tree right now
- 17:45:47 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: maybe the best thing is to write tests and then we can know what the issue is
- 17:46:00 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: and james craig did make a placeholder issue for this
- 17:46:41 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: on a philosphical case, are people comfortable with different text being presented to screenreader that is different than is on the screen?
- 17:47:12 [Marcelo]
- I feel this is a design decision, not an implementation decision.
- 17:47:14 [spectranaut_]
- bryan: from my own perspective, I feel the same way as an image that has something different than the image displayed
- 17:47:36 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: it's a button with an aria-label that puts something totally different than the button text
- 17:48:02 [spectranaut_]
- adam: more descriptive text for example
- 17:48:04 [sarah_h]
- q+
- 17:48:09 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: yeah there are valid scenarios
- 17:48:29 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: and opportunity for it to be used in bad ways
- 17:48:33 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: like all of aria
- 17:48:47 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: but is there any higher risk from this than any other aria feature?
- 17:48:51 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: I don't think so
- 17:49:02 [jamesn]
- ack sarah_h
- 17:49:33 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: I think the common valid usecase I've come acrossed is like an element that you want in the accessibility tree but you insert a unicode character and you don't want that included in the accessible name
- 17:49:42 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: there aren't great ways to work around that
- 17:49:57 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: you have to create a new dom node instead of using the pseudo element
- 17:50:47 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: on the flip side, I don't see it as fundmentally different than aria-label... pseudo elements add a whole nother layer to finding where the accname comes from by looking at the dom
- 17:51:00 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: there are work arounds?
- 17:51:42 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: should this be in the fabled css-aam
- 17:51:52 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: should this be in processing the text content of a node?
- 17:52:01 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: and then the accname spec doesn't need to deal with it
- 17:52:12 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: well there is a step here....
- 17:52:47 [spectranaut_]
- sarah_h: but if css-aam changes the way textual content is exposed then we won't have to change the algorithm
- 17:52:58 [spectranaut_]
- marcelo: isn't this a content design decision
- 17:53:09 [spectranaut_]
- Marcelo: doesn't it combine with aria-description/aria-label
- 17:53:30 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: that is all part of name calculation so it is definately related
- 17:53:40 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: it fits in, it's one of the nuances of the calculation
- 17:54:07 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: the only place we have it is where name from generated content..... should we even be defining this... maybe it should be somewhere else
- 17:54:18 [sarah_h]
- +1 to somewhere else :D
- 17:54:35 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I'd love to hear from aaron, who probably knows this in more detail, I'd like to know his view point on this
- 17:55:12 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: here we are only specifying css before and after pseudo elements, but what about the other pseudo elements that exist, like list, where unicode characters shouw up
- 17:55:24 [spectranaut_]
- s/here/here in the accname algorithm/
- 17:55:46 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: maybe this is a good tpac discussion for getting css-aam off the ground again!
- 17:55:52 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: what can we do about this issue
- 17:56:07 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: the first thing to do is write the tests
- 17:56:18 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: we don't know how pressing this is
- 17:56:29 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: even if it isn't speced, maybe everyone agrees
- 17:57:23 [spectranaut_]
- cyns: I'll take this issue, if there is no time pressure
- 17:57:39 [spectranaut_]
- mcking: done sometime before TPAC would be useful
- 17:58:50 [Marcelo]
- thanks everyone
- 17:59:32 [spectranaut_]
- #topic TPAC
- 17:59:45 [spectranaut_]
- james: there are some funds for diverse memebrs
- 17:59:57 [spectranaut_]
- s/memebrs/members/
- 18:00:14 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, end meeting
- 18:00:14 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been pkra, Francis_Storr, arigilmore, alisonmaher, Adam_Page, Daniel, myasonik, spectranaut_, jamesn, sarah_h, CurtBellew
- 18:00:17 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 18:00:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-aria-minutes.html Zakim
- 18:00:26 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 18:00:26 [Zakim]
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