12:02:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
12:02:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/21-wot-irc
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12:03:46 <kaz> meeting: WoT Next Charter Detailed Planning - Day 2
12:04:21 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
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12:05:36 <kaz> q+
12:06:04 <kaz> q-
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12:06:29 <kaz> chair: Sebastian/McCool
12:07:20 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Michael_McCool, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Luca_Barbato, Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:07:55 <Ege> I do not see any problems
12:08:18 <cris_> topic: Minutes review
12:08:22 <kaz> s/I do not see any problems//
12:08:27 <kaz> scribenick: cris_
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12:08:52 <cris_> s/Minutes review/Agenda/
12:08:57 <cris_> mc: wrote a simple agenda
12:08:58 <kaz> q+
12:09:01 <cris_> ... aob?
12:09:21 <cris_> seb: I saw a email for Tpac registration. Maybe we should talk about that too
12:09:24 <cris_> mc: added
12:09:43 <cris_> seb: I also updated the wiki page
12:09:49 <cris_> kaz: two comments
12:11:13 <cris_> ... I suggested to consolidate the main wot topic agenda, we can then link it back in the wiki call agenda
12:11:45 <cris_> ... about the website update it has been communicated with emails in the past weeks.
12:11:51 <cris_> seb: added links
12:12:36 <cris_> topic: minutes review
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12:12:57 <cris_> mc: names look correct
12:13:23 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-minutes.html June-7
12:13:25 <cris_> ... any problems?
12:13:27 <kaz> ack k
12:13:29 <kaz> q+
12:15:00 <cris_> mc: minutes approved
12:15:08 <cris_> topic: Quick updates
12:15:19 <cris_> subtopic: W3C web page redesigned
12:15:35 <cris_> kaz: the new webpage is now public
12:15:49 <cris_> ... the content should be identical or at least very similar
12:16:38 <cris_> mc: I find interesting that it looks similar to our page
12:17:11 <cris_> ... maybe we should align our page to the official website.
12:17:21 <cris_> kaz: it is not strictly needed
12:17:26 <cris_> mc: logo is changed too
12:17:37 <cris_> kaz: yes, but it is due to the legal entity change
12:17:49 <cris_> ... remember to update the logo
12:18:16 <cris_> mc: any other quick updates?
12:18:40 <kaz> i|the new we|-> https://www.w3.org W3C main page|
12:18:44 <kaz> q?
12:18:46 <kaz> ack k
12:19:02 <cris_> topic: TPAC registration
12:19:08 <cris_> mc: individual registration
12:19:25 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/registration.html TPAC 2023 registration
12:19:37 <kaz> [[
12:19:38 <kaz> Early Bird rate – until 15 July (23:59 UTC): EUR 290 [Rate limited to the 4 first persons of a given organization]
12:19:38 <cris_> seb: there is an early bid registration
12:19:38 <kaz> ]]
12:19:44 <kaz> s/]]//
12:19:48 <kaz> i/there/]]/
12:19:58 <kaz> s/bid/bird/
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12:21:14 <cris_> topic: publication schedule
12:21:42 <kaz> zakim, who is on the call?
12:21:42 <Zakim> Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Michael_McCool, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Luca_Barbato, Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:23:00 <cris_> mc: we need more resolution?
12:23:20 <cris_> kaz: no more resolutions needed for Discovery
12:23:59 <cris_> mc: how requests now are labeled as awaiting publication
12:24:05 <kaz> i|we need|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/charters/wg-2021-extension-plan.md publication schedule
12:24:16 <cris_> ... one of it (architecture) is still in awaiting working group state
12:24:31 <cris_> ... I need to reply to one comment
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12:25:20 <kaz> q+
12:25:23 <dezell> present+ David_Ezell
12:25:42 <Ege> brb
12:27:17 <kaz> i|one of it|-> https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/552 PR Transition request for Architecture|
12:27:25 <cris_> mc: Arch PR was reviewed by Sebastian and I made a couple of fixes
12:27:35 <kaz> q-
12:27:36 <kaz> q+
12:27:41 <cris_> ... do not put link in abstract
12:28:52 <cris_> ... as far as I know we don't have patent disclosures. Let me know if otherwise
12:29:01 <kaz> i/Arch PR/kaz: The purpose of the Proposed REC Transition request is simply checking the status of the wide reviews and so on by the Director./
12:29:11 <cris_> ... any questions about these points?
12:29:25 <cris_> ... with TD I did similar changes
12:30:07 <cris_> ... discovery similar
12:30:13 <kaz> q?
12:30:23 <cris_> ... TD and discovery got approval
12:30:51 <cris_> kaz: for the architecture PR Request you could add the email, it should be archived in our mailing list
12:33:03 <cris_> mc: I don't have access right
12:33:25 <cris_> mc: let's do it later
12:34:13 <kaz> q+
12:34:13 <Ege> q+
12:34:15 <cris_> topic: Binding WD publication
12:34:21 <cris_> mc: any updates?
12:34:26 <cris_> seb: waiting for publication
12:34:31 <Ege> q-
12:34:43 <cris_> kaz: sorry I could not work for the publication last week because I was busy
12:34:59 <cris_> ... I will talk about Scripting API publication
12:35:14 <cris_> mc: ok no problem
12:35:37 <kaz> ack k
12:35:38 <cris_> mc: aob?
12:35:39 <kaz> q?
12:35:44 <cris_> mc: ok main call adjourned
12:35:55 <cris_> topic: Thing description
12:36:46 <cris_> ege: we have a single presentation where multiple people contributed
12:36:46 <Ege> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1VsasuhNevvSb_yx7rUThlwPjTW_xUx7dT9IQWbaMvbc/edit?usp=sharing
12:36:54 <cris_> ege: above you can find the link to the presentation
12:37:03 <cris_> ... if you want to contribute just drop an email
12:37:16 <cris_> ... is anybody interested in this already?
12:37:25 <cris_> ... ok, just let me if you change your mind
12:37:36 <cris_> ... the presention is mostly to put things in one place
12:38:02 <cris_> * ege is presenting guidelines to contribute to the slides *
12:38:18 <kaz> q+
12:38:36 <McCool> q+
12:38:54 <cris_> kaz: do we need about the slide structure?
12:39:04 <cris_> ege: in a bit we will talk about the topics
12:39:23 <kaz> ack k
12:40:02 <cris_> mc: I want to step back and talk about organizational
12:40:07 <cris_> ... topics
12:40:13 <cris_> ... probably md files are better
12:40:27 <cris_> ... because it keeps the focus on the content and not the style
12:40:34 <cris_> ege: ok no problem
12:42:13 <cris_> ... we have shared this a week ago
12:42:32 <cris_> kaz: let's skip the part about the slide structure
12:42:49 <cris_> mc: let's focus on the content
12:43:17 <cris_> * ege continues with the next topics *
12:44:09 <cris_> ege: be aware there are topics that are not covered in this slide deck
12:44:12 <kaz> s/the part/this part/
12:44:40 <cris_> mc: I plan to do work for discovery in another document
12:44:52 <cris_> ege: just talk with cristiano is was looking at query filters
12:45:22 <McCool> q+
12:46:10 <cris_> ... with Michael Koster we decided to hold presentations
12:46:29 <kaz> s/let's skip/Before that discussion, I strongly suggested we not have the discussion but should have the planning discussion during this call. However, you had some preliminary discussion last week and that's fine. However, let's concentrate on the planning discussion today and skip/
12:46:36 <cris_> ... Luca did a nice presentation. The format works well
12:46:45 <cris_> ege: I found different categories
12:47:12 <cris_> * Ege presents the different categories of working items
12:48:11 <McCool> q+
12:48:19 <cris_> ege: any category to add ?
12:48:34 <kaz> q+
12:48:34 <cris_> mc: not sure how to improve, but the categories are a little bit vague
12:50:11 <kaz> ack m
12:51:11 <cris_> kaz: are we ready for this level of discussion? meaning how to deal with categories of issues.
12:51:27 <cris_> ... it is probably too early
12:51:39 <cris_> ... we should focus on how to refactor the documents
12:51:42 <McCool> q+
12:51:56 <cris_> ... we need the concrete discussion of course, but probably later
12:52:50 <cris_> mc: it is a useful way to organize the work. It is a good idea
12:53:07 <cris_> kaz: the problem is that this is discussion is orthogonal
12:53:17 <cris_> ... it can be done for all repository
12:53:32 <cris_> s/repository/repositories/
12:53:46 <cris_> mc: we could take the md file and check the topics that we collected there
12:54:14 <cris_> kaz: I partially agree, the "what" is important
12:54:23 <sebastian> q+
12:54:35 <cris_> ... it is that we should talk about it as a discussion about everything
12:55:02 <cris_> ... is that ok to change the tile of this discussion?
12:55:11 <cris_> s/tile/title/
12:55:31 <luca_barbato> q+
12:55:43 <kaz> ack k
12:55:45 <McCool> ack k
12:55:47 <McCool> ack m
12:56:00 <kaz> q+
12:56:17 <McCool> q+
12:56:40 <cris_> seb: I worried about discussion, we should let the TD group to present these slides. I understand your concern kaz, but instead of changing the title why don't we take that as an input for a future more generic discussion?
12:56:55 <cris_> ... please let continue the presentation
12:57:03 <McCool> (agree with sebastian; let's go through slides as Ege has prepared, then after we see we can discuss how to uplevel and apply to wider refactoring)
12:57:07 <luca_barbato> q-
12:57:23 <cris_> kaz: I was concerned about this complication
12:58:07 <McCool> (regarding kaz's objections: let's consider this a "prototype" of how we can proceed)
12:58:08 <cris_> ... I am not happy to accept this proposal as the output of TD task force. It should be put more open to the whole group
12:59:29 <Ege> q?
12:59:32 <Ege> ack s
13:00:12 <cris_> mc: let's consider this as a prototype rather as a proposal
13:00:48 <cris_> ege: the categories is specific to TD
13:01:00 <cris_> ... it is really narrowed down to TD
13:03:13 <cris_> ... should I also remove the not Td related topics?
13:03:39 <cris_> mc: let's move with stuff
13:04:12 <Ege> q?
13:04:17 <kaz> ack k
13:04:18 <Ege> ack k
13:04:18 <McCool> ack k
13:04:18 <kaz> ack m
13:04:19 <Ege> ack m
13:04:19 <McCool> ack m
13:05:00 <cris_> *ege continues with the presentation of categories*
13:05:59 <kaz> s/rather as/or as
13:06:00 <cris_> ege: we should decide how we mange the generation of the specification document
13:06:08 <cris_> ... currently is very complicated
13:06:14 <cris_> ... and slow contributions
13:06:16 <kaz> s/not Td re/not TD re/
13:06:29 <cris_> ... it influence the whole refactoring discussion
13:06:42 <cris_> seb: sounds good
13:08:35 <sebastian> mk: we plan sections about protocol binding
13:09:04 <kaz> i/we plan/scribenick: sebastian/
13:09:21 <kaz> i/we plan/(scribe switches to Sebastian)/
13:09:47 <sebastian> ... have section for people that explains the usage of specific binding, and there are sections that explains how to write new binding
13:10:09 <Ege> q?
13:10:33 <sebastian> MM: how to better organize testing?
13:10:37 <sebastian> q+
13:10:39 <kaz> q+
13:10:58 <sebastian> ... its not only about TDs
13:11:23 <sebastian> ... should also cover behavior
13:11:40 <sebastian> MK: is this about the TD specification?
13:12:05 <sebastian> MM: no, more about an implementation report
13:12:05 <cris_> q+
13:12:29 <sebastian> ... should also help about design decission
13:13:39 <McCool> q+
13:13:39 <kaz> ack s
13:13:43 <McCool> qq+
13:14:09 <luca_barbato> q+
13:14:20 <sebastian> sk: having physical PlugFest again would be great in the new Charter
13:14:56 <sebastian> MM: right, but we need to distinguish plugfest and testfest
13:16:00 <Ege> ack m
13:16:21 <kaz> ack mc
13:16:21 <Zakim> McCool, you wanted to react to sebastian
13:17:30 <sebastian> Kaz: brainsorming is fine, but please clarify the work items first and then think about how to deal with the work items
13:18:34 <Ege> ack k
13:18:50 <sebastian> EK: ok, I will asign this as work item
13:19:06 <kaz> s/with the work items/with the work items next./
13:19:39 <kaz> s/asign/assign/
13:20:10 <sebastian> ca: we should track the item how to generate the implementation report (which tooling?)
13:20:10 <McCool> ack c
13:20:20 <kaz> q+
13:21:19 <sebastian> lb: we should check that in-person meeting share all the information
13:21:20 <Ege> ack l
13:21:56 <sebastian> Kaz: what do you mean by single point of truth?
13:22:13 <sebastian> s/point/source
13:22:32 <sebastian> ek: we have a process that genarates the index.html
13:24:20 <sebastian> ... different edits have to done in different documents (JSON Schema, JSON-LD file, ...)
13:24:36 <McCool> q?
13:24:47 <sebastian> ... we need to bring it to a single source which needs to be edit
13:24:48 <sebastian> q+
13:25:23 <McCool> ack k
13:25:38 <kaz> ack k
13:25:56 <sebastian> kaz: today's process is too complex. Someone else should also able to edit
13:27:32 <McCool> q+
13:27:49 <kaz> s/able to edit/able to edit. That's true. However, we should rather concentrate on the fact we have difficulty with TD spec maintenance rather than thinking about possible solutions./
13:28:06 <sebastian> sk: agree here, that the process should be more simplified
13:28:08 <mjk> q?
13:28:13 <mjk> q+
13:28:20 <sebastian> ack s
13:28:46 <Ege> ack m
13:28:48 <Ege> ack m
13:29:11 <sebastian> mm: we should keep it editable in a single place
13:30:38 <kaz> q?
13:30:40 <kaz> q+
13:31:22 <sebastian> mk: work on well-defined interface to incorporate exeteranl bindings
13:31:42 <sebastian> ... no to be clear how to handle external specifications
13:31:56 <sebastian> s/no/need
13:32:39 <sebastian> ... should be explained well when an own protocol binding is used
13:33:03 <sebastian> Kaz: improving bindings template mechanism is fine
13:34:05 <sebastian> ... Japan such as Takanaka uses WoT for smart building management
13:34:17 <sebastian> ... we can ask for some feedback
13:36:31 <sebastian> ek: this should be useful for both sides
13:37:42 <sebastian> mk: thats important for the design phase
13:38:26 <sebastian> ... intersthing to see how the payload format look like, uri parameters used, etc.
13:38:40 <sebastian> q+
13:39:40 <sebastian> Kaz: list of slide 17 are ok, but we should derive specific work items
13:39:44 <sebastian> mk: agree with it
13:39:56 <sebastian> q?
13:40:00 <sebastian> ack k
13:40:39 <kaz> i/important/kaz: For today's discussion, brainstorming is fine. However, we need to think about concrete work items on Binding Templates as well, then think about how to deal with them how and with whom next./
13:40:47 <kaz> ack s
13:42:21 <kaz> i/Japan/... However, we ourselves are not sure about what is really needed for that purpose, and we need to ask actual IoT developers for ideas./
13:42:23 <sebastian> sk: cooperations with partners and SDOs very important that WoT gest adopted
13:42:57 <Ege> q?
13:43:28 <sebastian> mk: working on liasions could be broadened out to all of the these types of interactions
13:45:11 <sebastian> ek: <ege gives an overview of the different TD topics>
13:45:25 <sebastian> ... managing actions
13:45:25 <kaz> q+
13:45:30 <sebastian> ... timeseries
13:45:35 <mjk> q?
13:45:42 <sebastian> ... linting
13:45:45 <sebastian> ... versioning
13:46:14 <McCool> q+
13:47:04 <kaz> ack m
13:47:54 <sebastian> mm: some work items should have different literals
13:48:25 <mjk> q?
13:48:43 <cris_> q+
13:48:44 <sebastian> ... we should clearifiy, where normative definitions in Archictecure should be moved, when Arch will be a Note in the future
13:49:16 <kaz> ack k
13:49:20 <mjk> +1 sebastian... how do we test architecture?
13:49:47 <mjk> q?
13:49:56 <kaz> q+
13:51:03 <sebastian> ... we need to track all work items
13:52:07 <sebastian> mm: chairs can split responsiblity of the deliverables and talk each week, would be a idea
13:52:47 <luca_barbato> q+
13:52:57 <kaz> ack cri
13:53:19 <sebastian> ca: use cases are mainly applied to TD
13:53:33 <sebastian> ... less for discovery
13:53:39 <mjk> q?
13:53:55 <mjk> q+
13:54:19 <sebastian> mm: biggest issue with discovery is not to filter results
13:54:44 <sebastian> kaz: handle Arch on friday
13:54:51 <McCool> (is HOW to filter results - can't just return entire database every time, which right now is all we can do!)
13:55:40 <mjk> ack mjk
13:55:41 <sebastian> ... chairs does not need to be responsible for deliverables, however, can should check the status
13:56:01 <sebastian> s/can/
13:56:18 <mjk> +1 use cases to motivate all features
13:56:27 <sebastian> ... we should not generate features of own intention
13:56:40 <kaz> ack k
13:57:31 <kaz> s/should check the status/should coordinate with the Editors and manage the progress and schedule./
13:57:39 <sebastian> lb: just to mention that the part where Cris is working on is also related to TD
13:57:49 <kaz> s/chairs does not/chairs don't/
13:58:46 <kaz> s/for deliverables, however,/for technical detail of the specs but can ask the Editors to work on that. However,/
13:59:05 <kaz> q?
13:59:07 <kaz> ack l
13:59:24 <kaz> s/handle Arch/Firstly, let's handle Arch/
13:59:34 <kaz> s/chairs/secondly, chairs/
14:00:01 <kaz> q+
14:00:28 <kaz> ack k
14:00:58 <kaz> s/we should not/thirdly, we should not/
14:01:11 <kaz> s/features of own/features only based on our own/
14:01:48 <kaz> s/intention/intention, but should work on specs based on the use cases based on the industry needs./
14:02:23 <luca_barbato> q+
14:02:37 <sebastian> ack l
14:03:50 <kaz> topic: Tomorrow's agenda
14:04:26 <kaz> sk: Liaisons including wot deployment, JSON-LD, Web&Netwrks, Spatial Data, Digital Twins, OPC UA and asset administration shell
14:04:29 <kaz> ... then Discovery
14:07:46 <kaz> i/Liaisons/scribenick: kaz/
14:07:50 <kaz> [adjourned]
14:07:58 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:07:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/21-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:08:01 <benfrancis4> benfrancis4 has joined #wot
14:08:18 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:09:03 <kaz> s/brb//
14:09:12 <kaz> i/The purpose of/scribenick: kaz/
14:09:26 <kaz> i/Arch PR was/scribenick: cris_/
14:09:27 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:09:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:09:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/21-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:10:47 <kaz> s/However, we oursel/scribenick: kaz/
14:11:07 <kaz> i/Japan such as/scribenick: sebastian/
14:11:10 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/21-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:11:24 <kaz> i/For today's discussion,/scribenick: kaz/
14:11:41 <kaz> i/thats important/scribenick: sebastian/
14:11:43 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/21-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:12:14 <kaz> s/scribenick: kazves/However, we ourselves/
14:12:28 <kaz> i/not sure about what/scribenick: ka/
14:12:31 <kaz> i/not sure about what/scribenick: kaz/
14:12:41 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:12:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/21-wot-minutes.html kaz