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16:09:09 <jensimmons> present+
16:09:22 <emilio> miriam: given the new comments, left there in case we want to revisit
16:09:23 <flackr> present+
16:09:24 <emilio> present+
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16:09:27 <florian> present+
16:09:29 <ydaniv> present+
16:09:31 <dbaron> Present+
16:09:33 <vitorroriz> present+
16:09:48 <bramus> present+
16:09:57 <fantasai> present+
16:09:59 <miriam> miriam has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2023Jun/0004.html
16:10:03 <dholbert> present+
16:10:32 <miriam> zakim, start meeting
16:10:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:10:34 <Zakim> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
16:10:38 <fantasai> Topic: [css-counter-styles-3] Should "Ready-made Counter Styles" be supported by UA?
16:10:49 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8636
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16:11:04 <Rossen_> present+
16:11:05 <jfkthame> present+
16:11:07 <flackr> present+
16:11:09 <jensimmons> present+
16:11:12 <ydaniv> present+
16:11:14 <changseok> present+
16:11:37 <emilio> TabAtkins: we agreed last week to change the ready-made counter-style doc into a registry
16:11:40 <miriam> present+
16:11:49 <emilio> ... and require must level support
16:12:18 <emilio> ... r12a commented and they want to make sure that people that want minor tweaks can copy and paste
16:12:57 <emilio> ... counter-argument from myles and jensimmons is that most people can do that with the UA sheet and most people don't know that document or the spec exists
16:13:23 <emilio> ... I agree with them, given how counter-styles work we don't restrict authors in any way
16:13:27 <r12a> q+
16:13:48 <emilio> ack r12a
16:13:57 <emilio> r12a: don't want to repeat the thread
16:14:14 <emilio> ... if myles and jensimmons think we can keep up with all the changes and are prepared for the other stuff that would be necessary
16:14:26 <emilio> ... getting stuff into the counter-styles spec or the registry is the easy part
16:14:53 <emilio> ... we also have to have tests and check that the stuff is supported and which ones are supported by which browser and so on and change browsers to implement as needed
16:15:11 <emilio> ... if they feel comfortable that it can be done then that's fine
16:15:37 <emilio> ... the thing about this doc is that it was designed to be very flexible so that we could change it easily
16:15:46 <emilio> ... it was never intended to be an exhaustive resource
16:15:48 <TabAtkins> q+
16:16:00 <emilio> ... having the registry makes it a lot more formal
16:16:09 <emilio> ... I don't have experience maintaining/running one
16:16:34 <florian> q+ to make a brief point about registries
16:16:35 <emilio> ... but if it makes it more formal we kinda have an additional problem which is what counter styles / languages do we want to support
16:16:42 <emilio> ... there are 7k languages in the world
16:16:46 <emilio> ... so those worry me a bit
16:17:05 <emilio> ... if other people think there are no major issues and that can be handled then that's great
16:17:17 <emilio> TabAtkins: that doc was extracted from the spec
16:17:20 <jensimmons> q+
16:17:29 <emilio> ... the intent was to always making it required
16:17:45 <emilio> ... it was removed because browsers didn't want at the time to carry a couple hundred of styles
16:18:16 <emilio> ... as we need to adopt more we can continue to support new communities and languages
16:18:37 <emilio> ... shouldn't make perfect the enemy of good and we can make good for a bunch of people
16:18:43 <miriam> ack florian
16:18:43 <Zakim> florian, you wanted to make a brief point about registries
16:18:54 <emilio> florian: I think the question is more about whether browsers should ship it, not about registry
16:19:02 <emilio> ... registry we can worry about separately
16:19:18 <miriam> ack jensimmons
16:19:28 <emilio> jensimmons: I appreciate the perspective from r12a and your context. Maybe this doc has been pretty good but not perfect guidance
16:20:07 <emilio> ... to go from that to putting it in browsers that might be a different story, maybe it's a bit more intimidating
16:20:23 <emilio> ... I do feel like that phrase (don't let the perfect be the enemy of good)
16:20:23 <florian> q+
16:20:34 <emilio> ... I'd like browsers shipping more of these by default
16:20:41 <TabAtkins> i also suspect that testing all these is best done by auto generation - throw a parser at it, create a standard set of tests out of it. that way we can (a) actually test the ones that exist and (b) keep up with updates easily
16:20:52 <emilio> ... I also think this could create a bit more attention about this
16:21:02 <emilio> ... and I think we would be in a better place than now
16:21:10 <emilio> +1 TabAtkins, was thinking the same
16:21:29 <emilio> florian: I think it'd be good to ship more than what we're shipping now, but I wonder how many of these are known to be good enough?
16:21:42 <emilio> ... if we're outfashioned by a decade that's not concerning, but maybe some are plain wrong
16:21:51 <emilio> ... specially some of the rarer languages
16:22:04 <r12a> q+
16:22:09 <emilio> ... on one hand it is great to get more languages
16:22:24 <miriam> ack florian
16:22:42 <emilio> ... do we have any way of knowing which counters are known good, which ones need tweaking, and which one are a first try but not known good?
16:23:01 <emilio> TabAtkins: we'd still recommend people use these I'm not sure that'd be worse
16:23:16 <emilio> florian: when we do that people do it deliberately
16:23:22 <emilio> ... but that takes less review to give it a go
16:23:46 <emilio> TabAtkins: and when we find errors, which we probably will more often if it's in browsers
16:23:54 <emilio> ... updating is a copy/paste operation
16:23:55 <miriam> ack r12a
16:23:56 <emilio> ... so it's trivial
16:24:19 <emilio> r12a: we tried to make them as accurate as we can but there've been changes to popular languages
16:24:27 <emilio> ... like hebrew / greek
16:24:37 <emilio> ... also name changes e.g. serbian recently
16:24:44 <emilio> ... we've made a bunch of changes to separators
16:25:12 <emilio> ... can't answer to how many are good or bad, we try that all of them are ok
16:25:17 <emilio> plinss: also languages change
16:25:24 <emilio> ... so we'd need to update in the future
16:26:25 <emilio> r12a: most of the newer styles are defined by you, maybe with some tweaks from the document, but it wouldn't change underneath
16:26:49 <emilio> ... if we decided that the best separator for ?? was this separator or other people's list would change
16:26:51 <jensimmons> q?
16:27:01 <jensimmons> q+
16:27:02 <emilio> ... currently you copy it and it stays the same until we decide
16:27:25 <emilio> plinss: I don't see it as precluding that, you can always copy it if you care about it
16:27:46 <miriam> ack fantasai
16:27:46 <Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to comment on back-compat
16:28:09 <emilio> fantasai: from a compat perspective there are some changes, for separator changes it's aesthetic and it probably doesn't have much impact
16:28:21 <emilio> ... number changes are harder
16:28:34 <emilio> ... I think we're fine with these having minor changes
16:29:08 <emilio> ... if we're not fine with those to exist in documents we should wait until the counter styles are more stable before baking them in
16:29:10 <r12a> I take the point that if things change in a way that the author doesn't like then they can still change it for themselves using the @charset approach
16:29:14 <jfkthame> q+
16:29:15 <miriam> ack jensimmons
16:29:34 <emilio> jensimmons: I think there are some interesting points made here, might be helpful to go back to the issue
16:29:48 <fantasai> s/are harder/can be more problematic, especially if there are cross-references to it; but then, if there are manual cross-references, the author is more likely to notice if there's an actual error and switch the style/
16:30:02 <fantasai> s/charset/counter-style/
16:30:10 <miriam> ack jfkthame
16:30:11 <emilio> TabAtkins: yeah if there are no major objections to the resolution we should continue no change
16:30:35 <emilio> jfkthame: this is a bit parallel to a recent change in CLDR which affected date formatting in some languages
16:30:39 <r12a> q+ to talk about publicising the counter styles
16:30:44 <emilio> ... it caused a fair amount of compat pain
16:30:54 <emilio> ... I could see that happening around this
16:31:04 <emilio> ... sites are sometimes fragile to this stuff
16:31:24 <miriam> ack r12a
16:31:24 <Zakim> r12a, you wanted to talk about publicising the counter styles
16:31:47 <emilio> r12a: if something changes about the UA the author can still reverse it manually
16:32:03 <emilio> ... people brought up that not many people knew about it, but it'd be useful to point to it from mdn
16:32:47 <emilio> miriam: let's take it back to the issue then
16:33:01 <emilio> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8870
16:33:01 <github-bot> Topic: [css-counter-styles-3] Korean counter styles fallback
16:33:01 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8870.
16:33:42 <emilio> TabAtkins: real quick rubber-stamp. Several years back we agreed that korean falls back to cjk decimal but I did it wrong
16:33:51 <emilio> ... and accidentally default to decimal now
16:34:34 <emilio> RESOLVED: Accept edits from the issue
16:34:58 <emilio> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8186
16:35:00 <github-bot> Topic: [css-counter-styles-3] Setting `CSSCounterStyleRule.name` should ignore symbolic counter styles
16:35:00 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8186.
16:35:25 <emilio> TabAtkins: again obvious bug-fix, I had two places which reference the special counter-styles
16:35:29 <emilio> ... didn't keep them in sync
16:35:40 <emilio> ... so cssom had a shorter version of the list
16:35:51 <emilio> ... I've made the list a defined term and reference in both places
16:36:00 <emilio> ... only needs sign-off
16:36:26 <emilio> ... also impls do this correctly
16:36:41 <emilio> RESOLVED: Accept edits
16:36:52 <emilio> github-bot, take up     https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959
16:36:52 <github-bot> Topic: [css-counter-styles-3] Support automatically localized counters
16:36:52 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959.
16:37:21 <emilio> TabAtkins: r12a do you think that this is more of a topic to be discussed or something to be introduced?
16:37:39 <emilio> r12a: we could discuss the concept, my take was similar to the ready-made counter-styles
16:37:54 <emilio> ... I'd think it'd be something that authors would define rather than something built-in
16:37:59 <emilio> ... would you like to introduce this?
16:38:21 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1592610379
16:38:24 <emilio> TabAtkins: somebody filed it requesting that for a few different categories we have an automatically-internationalized version
16:38:51 <emilio> ... e.g., `digits` would be `decimal` for english, french, ... but map to something else for other languages
16:39:07 <emilio> ... same for letters which could map to hiragana in japanese
16:39:48 <emilio> ... before we accepted moving counter styles into the registry this was a lot harder to do
16:40:01 <emilio> ... r12a proposed a new at-rule mapping lang to digits
16:40:13 <florian> q+
16:40:25 <emilio> ... does this sound worth pursuing
16:40:33 <miriam> ack r12a
16:40:33 <Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to r12a
16:40:44 <emilio> r12a: the registry doesn't really need to enter into it in the registry
16:40:55 <emilio> s/to it in the registry//
16:41:12 <emilio> ... needs to work with author styles
16:41:15 <emilio> ... just a clarification
16:41:19 <emilio> jensimmons: I really like this idea
16:41:21 <TabAtkins> My thought was just that, since we'd be supporting a ton of these, we'd also have a UA stylesheet registry with a bunch assigned. Authors would still be able to extend/override it.
16:41:29 <emilio> ... so many languages have translations
16:41:57 <TabAtkins> q+
16:42:00 <emilio> ... so even if they are not published in different languages
16:42:22 <emilio> ... I'd love for it to be in some ua default
16:42:27 <TabAtkins> (i'm just gonna say that this was noted as actaully being helpful for Wikipedia; they currently manually set a bunch of counter styles for the different translations)
16:42:43 <emilio> ... but if it can't be it'd probably end up in some kind of reset/framework sheet
16:43:06 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1592298287
16:43:08 <emilio> fantasai: there's some complications here
16:43:10 <miriam> ack fantasai
16:43:12 <emilio> ... see linked comment
16:43:33 <emilio> ... (a) you don't always want to translate the counter style, e.g. western digits might be used in other languages
16:43:54 <emilio> ... (b) some languages have multiple styles which might be designer-preference or so
16:44:00 <emilio> ... so I'm skeptic of adding something built-in
16:44:14 <emilio> ... it'd be relatively straight-forward to do this using `:lang()`
16:44:27 <emilio> ... what we don't have is a way to set a default counter-style for the counters function
16:44:40 <emilio> ... if we have that e.g. via a `counter-style` property then it'd be really easy to make this mapping
16:44:43 <miriam> ack florian
16:44:59 <TabAtkins> "relatively straightforward" is still hundreds of selectors, fwiw
16:45:01 <fantasai> s/mapping/mapping in the stylesheet/
16:45:16 <emilio> florian: I'm nervous, I' really like the vision of the international way, but this makes me nervous because it heightens the worry of the previous issue
16:45:22 <TabAtkins> and there are two types at least - numeric and writing - so a default counter() style won't satisfy it
16:45:43 <emilio> ... if you copy and paste it you check they're right, if you turn them on you likely at least checked
16:45:59 <emilio> ... it increases the chances of a wrong counter style appearing in the page if you need to do neither
16:46:05 <emilio> ... other concern is getting the mapping wrong
16:46:23 <emilio> ... e.g., japanese might not want to automatically switch to hiragana, I don't think it should be default
16:46:24 <r12a> q+
16:46:47 <emilio> ... if we were doing a couple or ten languages then we can probably figure it out
16:46:51 <fantasai> s/default/default, that would be jarring/
16:47:01 <emilio> ... but if we want hundreds, how often would we get it wrong in a way that's worse
16:47:03 <miriam> ack TabAtkins
16:47:04 <emilio> ?
16:47:17 <emilio> TabAtkins: if this is just a matter of UA rule then it is fixable
16:47:23 <florian> q+
16:47:44 <emilio> ... as we discover that they're wrong we can just get them fixed
16:47:56 <emilio> ... as the way it'd be designed you could override any of the mappings
16:48:13 <miriam> ack r12a
16:48:23 <emilio> r12a: what florian and fantasai were worried about is if this is baked into the browser
16:48:38 <TabAtkins> i'm happy to separate the "define the at-rule" part from the "and then put a default version of it into the UA stylesheet"
16:48:40 <emilio> ... proposal so far is to make it an author controlled rule for now
16:48:49 <emilio> ... I think that should be less problematic
16:48:59 <miriam> ack florian
16:49:02 <emilio> florian: what I'm about to say depends on whether this is auto-turned-on or not
16:49:10 <emilio> ... do authors need to opt in?
16:49:32 <emilio> TabAtkins: proposal is to define some new at-rule to define mapping from "generic family" to concrete style
16:49:44 <emilio> ... then there's the question of "should we have a default in the UA sheet"
16:49:52 <emilio> florian: the later makes me very nervous
16:50:31 <fantasai> +1 florian
16:50:35 <emilio> ... e.g., english is a roman-alphabet language and someone could consider using roman numerals
16:50:36 <fantasai> s/later/latter/
16:50:39 <emilio> ... sure we could fix it
16:50:45 <jensimmons> q?
16:50:56 <emilio> ... and in english we'd notice fairly easily
16:51:12 <emilio> ... but maybe not for smaller languages
16:51:26 <emilio> TabAtkins: I don't think we'd auto-apply it to ol
16:51:31 <fantasai> s/and someone could consider using roman numerals/, so suppose someone thought that it would be appropriate to use roman numerals, and then shipped it out across the Web. That would be very disruptive/
16:51:38 <emilio> ... but if auto-applying the mapping is controversial let's discuss that separately
16:51:50 <emilio> fantasai: I think we need a more specific proposal
16:52:06 <emilio> TabAtkins: assuming there's no objections I think we should pursue this idea
16:52:41 <emilio> [more discussion about auto-applying vs not]
16:52:50 <fantasai> s/sure we could fix it/sure, we could fix it--and for English it would happen quickly--but for a less common language, it could take a long time to bubble up/
16:53:15 <emilio> jensimmons: you wouldn't be declaring the whole counter styles, but you'd define the mapping to language and you'd have to use it in your list-style
16:53:39 <emilio> florian: as long as we don't auto apply <ol> in numeric types
16:53:45 <emilio> ... I'm fine
16:53:48 <TabAtkins> `@generic-counter-style digits { en-US: decimal; ...}`rather than `ol:lang(en-US) { list-style-type: decimal; } ...`
16:54:12 <emilio> jensimmons: instead authors would need to opt-in into this generic-digits
16:54:18 <miriam> ack fantasai
16:54:45 <emilio> fantasai: two thoughts. How much of this could be done using our existing mechanism using lang selectors with a `counter-style` property
16:55:25 <emilio> ... other question is, even with a new opt-in keyword for this and deployed that what I'd expect to see is that a lot of people that are authoring pages would use it and then get wrongly translated things in other languages
16:55:40 <emilio> TabAtkins: let's push that topic out
16:55:53 <emilio> ... not discussing applying anything automatically
16:56:06 <emilio> fantasai: not talking about that, just about any thing in the UA sheet
16:56:23 <emilio> ... if only for authors, do we need a new mechanism, or can we use :lang()
16:56:44 <emilio> TabAtkins: let's stop discussing the second point. Can authors do this today? yes
16:56:51 <emilio> ... see example above
16:56:59 <emilio> ... this would be essentially just sugar over that
16:57:12 <emilio> ... possibly a bit more efficient for browsers (less selectors?)
16:57:27 <emilio> ... but yeah it'd essentially be just sugar over selectors
16:57:33 <emilio> r12a: I don't think that's quite right
16:57:47 <emilio> ... in the labeled-digits example you can just use in the stylesheet to use digits
16:57:52 <emilio> ... so I think it's a little extra
16:58:04 <emilio> TabAtkins: no you can always just apply the language selectors you want yourself
16:58:12 <emilio> ... nothing fundamentally new or magical about it
16:58:26 <r12a> generic-counter-style: "digits" {
16:58:26 <r12a>     'ar':'arabic-indic',
16:58:26 <r12a>     'bn':'bengali',
16:58:28 <r12a>     'my':'myanmar',
16:58:30 <r12a>     'az-arab':'arabic-indic',
16:58:32 <r12a>     'suz':'my-own-sunuwar-style',
16:58:34 <r12a>     .... }
16:58:45 <emilio> miriam: seems like back to the issue for the full proposal
16:59:10 <emilio> github-bot: take up     https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8596
16:59:10 <github-bot> Topic: [css-counter-styles-3] system for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem
16:59:10 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8596.
16:59:29 <emilio> vitorroriz: some years ago the spec changed alphabetic to fixed
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16:59:37 <emilio> ... so just wanted to make sure it's fixed indeed
16:59:43 <emilio> TabAtkins: yeah tests were just wrong
16:59:55 <emilio> vitorroriz: I fixed them
17:00:09 <emilio> TabAtkins: great, nothing on the spec needs change
17:00:27 <emilio> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8975
17:00:27 <github-bot> Topic: [css-counter-styles-3] fallback for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem
17:00:27 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8975.
17:00:40 <TabAtkins> seems reasonable to me too
17:00:40 <emilio> fantasai: seems reasonable, we should make the change and republish
17:01:01 <emilio> miriam: objections, anyone need more context?
17:01:48 <fantasai> emilio: would like someone familiar with cjk to look at it, but otherwise seems fine
17:02:02 <fantasai> +1 TabAtkins
17:02:17 <fantasai> TabAtkins: These fall back to cjk-decimal due to matching fullwidth
17:02:21 <emilio> TabAtkins: all fall back to cjk-decimal because of full-width, same applies to these
17:02:24 <emilio> RESOLVED: Change fallback for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem to cjk-decimal instead of decimal
17:02:29 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Republish CR
17:02:44 <emilio> topic: end
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17:03:12 <Rossen_> Zakim, end meeting
17:03:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been florian, ydaniv, dbaron, vitorroriz, bramus, fantasai, dholbert, Rossen_, jfkthame, flackr, jensimmons, changseok, miriam
17:03:15 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:03:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/21-css-minutes.html Zakim
17:03:23 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Rossen_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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